ANTI-WAR OR ANTI-U.S.?

Mike B. said:
I know there are all kinds of people that protest the war.

However, in my city we had traffic blocked by protesters who laid down in the road and did other things of that matter. When I finally got up to them after waiting a long time, I was surprised to see how many of them had signs that had nothing to do with the war.

"Free Mumia"
(Don't get me started on that one.)

"Fight Globalization"

"End embargo of Cuba"

"Destroy Corporate Power"

etc.

I wonder if many of these anti-war protests lose their focus because of all the other causes.

As a sign-carrying peacenik, I would have agree with you. This has long been a problem with the movement. Losing focus, that is. Many recent protests were designed to keep the anti-war message at the forefront. I think the message is getting clearer, but it has not been entirely successful at eliminating the clutter that comes with a broad coalition of groups.
 
Many of the antiwar protests are organized by ANSWER. Lie down with dogs wake up with fleas.
 
Re: Re: ANTI-WAR OR ANTI-U.S.?

DrChinese said:


Thanks for giving me something to laugh about today. Can you do one about the bed-wetting "warmongers" next? (Hitler's birthday is April 20, maybe you can do something with that.)


Wait a minute!?! Isn't April 20th Earth Day?!?! Aha! Now we know what that's all really about!! :D
 
Re: Re: ANTI-WAR OR ANTI-U.S.?

DrChinese said:


Thanks for giving me something to laugh about today. Can you do one about the bed-wetting "warmongers" next? (Hitler's birthday is April 20, maybe you can do something with that.)

Wait a minute!?! Isn't April 20th Earth Day?!?! Aha! Now we know what that's all really about!! :D
 
Denise said:
Many of the antiwar protests are organized by ANSWER. Lie down with dogs wake up with fleas.

Come on Denise... you have such sensible views on circumcision :D, and now this??? If the quality of a cause is affected by everybody associating with it, i would think that tax cuts are pretty bad, since civil-rights-cutting republicans are all for it.

Forntunately, it ain't so.

Just as Republicans do not diminish the value of (more) libertarian economics, ANSWER and their red hordes does not diminish the prinicipal validity of peace protests :).

If you are for or against the war, address the causes that speak for either, but do not judge it by the people who associate with it.
 
Re: Re: Re: ANTI-WAR OR ANTI-U.S.?

Scorpy said:


Wait a minute!?! Isn't April 20th Earth Day?!?! Aha! Now we know what that's all really about!! :D

My Granddads Birthday was April 20th...
during the third Reich he used to pretend that the flags were flown full mast for HIM... also he was evading the Wehrmacht by simulating disease and totally cheating the Nazis out of serving on the Battlefield (quote: "All that war heroes get is a chaplet on their grave")
 
There are other valid reasons to be anti-war that have nothing to do with communism, besides destabilization of the Middle east. For example, one could be concerned about international law and due process (in which respect USA is acting like a vigilante); or one could think that military intervention is ineffective in promoting democracy, being more likely to simply end up emplacing a different dictator; or one could be concerned about the growing international imbalance of power being increased by this american incursion; etc.

Yes, there are other reasons to be anti-war, Tony. I told you that before.
 
I think the antiwar Left makes a huge mistake in attending rallies organized by ANSWER. Serious liberal activists have long complained that ANSWER hurts more than helps their respective causes (by dominating the planning of events, by controlling the agenda and the speakers, by shutting out other organizations that have a slightly different take but still want to participate, etc.)

Previous threads about ANSWER:
thread 1

thread 2 (more about them specifically)

If I were antiwar, (or only just antithiswar) you still couldn't get me to attend a protest organized by them.

MattJ
 
Victor Danilchenko said:
For example, one could be concerned about international law and due process (in which respect USA is acting like a vigilante);

We have international law on our side. Resolution 1441 promised serious consequences if Iraq fail to abide by the UN resolutions.

or one could think that military intervention is ineffective in promoting democracy,

One COULD think that, but they would be wrong. Military intervention was successful in promoting democracy in Japan and Germany after ww2.

being more likely to simply end up emplacing a different dictator; or one could be concerned about the growing international imbalance of power being increased by this american incursion;

I think this would fall under anti-americanism.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ANTI-WAR OR ANTI-U.S.?

Tony said:


I cant find an article right now. But from what I remember off the top of my head, is that the group "International ANSWER" is a front group for the World Workers Party. The World Workers Party is a group that split with the communist party in 1956 (or was it '58?) after the Soviet invasion of Hungary. Ill try to find something concrete and post it later on today or tonight (houston time).


Rusty and Iain: This is for u guys.

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/50/news-corn.php ...full article

FREE MUMIA. FREE THE CUBAN 5. FREE JAMIL AL-AMIN (that’s H. Rap Brown, the former Black Panther convicted in March of killing a sheriff’s deputy in 2000). And free Leonard Peltier. Also, defeat Zionism. And, while we’re at it, let’s bring the capitalist system to a halt.

When tens of thousands of people gathered near the Vietnam Veterans Memorial for an anti-war rally and march in Washington last Saturday, the demands hurled by the speakers extended far beyond the call for no war against Iraq. Opponents of the war can be heartened by the sight of people coming together in Washington and other cities for pre-emptive protests. But demonstrations such as these are not necessarily strategic advances, for the crowds are still relatively small and, more importantly, the message is designed by the far left for consumption by those already in their choir.

In a telling sign of the organizers’ priorities, the cause of Mumia Abu-Jamal, the taxi driver/radical journalist sentenced to death two decades ago for killing a policeman, drew greater attention than the idea that revived and unfettered weapons inspections should occur in Iraq before George W. Bush launches a war. Few of the dozens of speakers, if any, bothered suggesting a policy option regarding Saddam Hussein other than a simplistic leave-Iraq-alone. Jesse Jackson may have been the only major figure to acknowledge Saddam’s brutality, noting that the Iraqi dictator “should be held accountable for his crimes.” What to do about Iraq? Most speakers had nothing to say about that. Instead, the Washington rally was a pander fest for the hard left.

If public-opinion polls are correct, 33 percent to 40 percent of the public opposes an Iraq war; even more are against a unilateral action. This means the burgeoning anti-war movement has a large recruiting pool, yet the demo was not intended to persuade doubters. Nor did it speak to Americans who oppose the war but who don’t consider the United States a force of unequaled imperialist evil and who don’t yearn to smash global capitalism.

This was no accident, for the demonstration was essentially organized by the Workers World Party, a small political sect that years ago split from the Socialist Workers Party to support the Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956. The party advocates socialist revolution and abolishing private property. It is a fan of Fidel Castro’s regime in Cuba, and it hails North Korean dictator Kim Jong-Il for preserving his country’s “socialist system,” which, according to the party’s newspaper, has kept North Korea “from falling under the sway of the transnational banks and corporations that dictate to most of the world.” The WWP has campaigned against the war-crimes trial of former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic. A recent Workers World editorial declared, “Iraq has done absolutely nothing wrong.”

Officially, the organizer of the Washington demonstration was International ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War & End Racism). But ANSWER is run by WWP activists, to such an extent that it seems fair to dub it a WWP front. Several key ANSWER officials — including spokesperson Brian Becker — are WWP members. Many local offices for ANSWER’s protest were housed in WWP offices. Earlier this year, when ANSWER conducted a press briefing, at least five of the 13 speakers were WWP activists. They were each identified, though, in other ways, including as members of the International Action Center.

The IAC, another WWP offshoot, was a key partner with ANSWER in promoting the protest. It was founded by Ramsey Clark, attorney general for President Lyndon Johnson in the 1960s. For years, Clark has been on a bizarre political odyssey, much of the time in sync with the Workers World Party. As an attorney, he has represented Lyndon LaRouche, the leader of a political cult. He has defended Serbian war criminal Radovan Karadzic and Pastor Elizaphan Ntakirutimana, who was accused of participating in the genocide in Rwanda in 1994. Clark is also a member of the International Committee To Defend Slobodan Milosevic. The international war-crimes tribunal, he explains, “is war by other means” — that is, a tool of the West to crush those who stand in the way of U.S. imperialism, like Milosevic. A critic of the ongoing sanctions against Iraq, Clark has appeared on talking-head shows and refused to concede any wrongdoing on Saddam’s part. There is no reason to send weapons inspectors to Iraq, he told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer: “After 12 years of brutalization with sanctions and bombing they’d like to be a country again. They’d like to have sovereignty again. They’d like to be left alone.”

It is not redbaiting to note the WWP’s not-too-hidden hand in the nascent anti-war movement. It explains the tone and message of Saturday’s rally. Take the question of inspections. According to Workers World, at a party conference in September, Sara Flounders, a WWP activist, reported war opponents were using the slogan “inspections, not war.” Flounders, the paper says, “pointed out that ‘inspections ARE war’ in another form,” and that she had “prepared party activists to struggle within the movement on this question.” Translation: The WWP would do whatever it could to smother the “inspections, not war” cry. Inspections-before-invasion is an effective argument against the dash to war. But it conflicts with WWP support for opponents of U.S. imperialism. At the Washington event, the WWP succeeded in blocking out that line — while promoting anti-war messages more simpatico with its dogma.

WWP shaped the demonstration’s content by loading the speakers’ list with its own people. None, though, were identified as belonging to the WWP. Larry Holmes, who emceed much of the rally from a stage dominated by ANSWER posters, was introduced as a representative of the ANSWER Steering Committee and the International Action Center. The audience was not told that he is also a member of the secretariat of the Workers World Party. When Leslie Feinberg spoke and accused Bush of concocting a war to cover up “the capitalist economic crisis,” she informed the crowd that she is “a Jewish revolutionary” dedicated to the “fight against Zionism.” When I asked her what groups she worked with, she replied that she was a “lesbian-gay-bi-transgender movement activist.” Yet a May issue of Workers World describes Feinberg as a “lesbian and transgendered communist and a managing editor of Workers World.” The WWP’s Sara Flounders, who urged the crowd to resist “colonial subjugation,” was presented as an IAC rep. Shortly after she spoke, Holmes introduced one of the event’s big-name speakers: Ramsey Clark. He declared that the Bush administration aims to “end the idea of individual freedom.”

Most of the protesters, I assume, were oblivious to the WWP’s role in the event. They merely wanted to gather with other foes of the war and express their collective opposition. They waved signs (“We need an Axis of Sanity,” “Draft Perle,” “Collateral Damage = Civilian Deaths,” “◊◊◊◊ Bush”). They cheered on rappers who sang, “No blood for oil.” They laughed when Medea Benjamin, the head of Global Exchange, said, “We need to stop the testosterone-poisoning of our globe.” They filled red ANSWER donation buckets with coins and bills. But how might they have reacted if Holmes and his comrades had asked them to stand with Saddam, Milosevic and Kim? Or to oppose further inspections in Iraq?

One man in the crowd was wise to the behind-the-scenes politics. When Brian Becker, a WWP member introduced (of course) as an ANSWER activist, hit the stage, Paul Donahue, a middle-aged fellow who works with the Thomas Merton Peace and Social Justice Center in Pittsburgh, shouted, “Stalinist!” Donahue and his colleagues at the Merton Center, upset that WWP activists were in charge of this demonstration, had debated whether to attend. “Some of us tried to convince others to come,” Donahue recalled. “We figured we could dilute the [WWP] part of the message. But in the end most didn’t come. People were saying, ‘They’re Maoists.’ But they’re the only game in town, and I’ve got to admit they’re good organizers. They remembered everything but the Porta-Johns.” Rock singer Patti Smith, though, was not troubled by the organizers. “My main concern now is the anti-war movement,” she said before playing for the crowd. “I’m for a nonpartisan, globalist movement. I don’t care who it is as long as they feel the same.”

The WWP does have the shock troops and talent needed to construct a quasi mass demonstration. But the bodies have to come from elsewhere. So WWPers create fronts and trim their message, and anti-war Americans, who presumably don’t share WWP sentiments, have an opportunity to assemble and register their stand against the war. At the same time, WWP activists, hiding their true colors, gain a forum where thousands of people listen to their exhortations. Is this a good deal — or a dangerous one? Who’s using whom?

“Organizing against the silence is important,” Bob Borosage, executive director of Campaign for America’s Future, a leading progressive policy shop in Washington, said backstage at the rally: “This [rally] is easy to dismiss as the radical fringe, but it holds the potential for a larger movement down the road.” Borosage did add that the WWP “puts a slant on the speakers and that limits the appeal to others. But history shows that protests are organized first by militant, radical fringe parties and then get taken over by more centrist voices as the movement grows. They provide a vessel for people who want to protest.”

That’s the vessel-half-filled view. The other argument is that WWP’s involvement will prevent the anti-war movement from growing. Sure, the commies can rent buses and obtain parade permits, but if they have a say in the message, as they have had, the anti-war movement is going to have a tough time signing up non-lefties. When the organizers tried and failed to play a recorded message from Al-Amin, Lorena Stackpole, a 20-year-old New York University student, said, “This is not what I came for.” And an organizer for a non-revolutionary peace group that participated in the event remarked, “The rhetoric here is not useful if we want to expand.” After all, how does urging the release of Cubans accused of committing espionage in the United States — a pet project of the WWP — help draw more people into the anti-war movement? (In a similar reds-take-control situation, the “Not in My Name” campaign — which pushes an anti-war statement signed by scores of prominent and celebrity lefties, including Jane Fonda, Martin Luther King III, Marisa Tomei, Kurt Vonnegut and Oliver Stone — has been directed, in part, by C. Clark Kissinger, a longtime Maoist activist and member of the Revolutionary Communist Party.)

Let’s be real: A Washington demonstration involving tens of thousands of people will not yield much political impact — especially when held while Congress is out of town and the relevant legislation has already been rubber-stamped. (The organizers claimed 200,000 showed, but that seemed a pumped-up guesstimate, perhaps three or four times the real number.) The anti-war movement won’t have a chance of applying pressure on the political system unless it becomes much larger and able to squeeze elected officials at home and in Washington.

To reach that stage, the new peace movement will need the involvement of labor unions and churches. That’s where the troops are — in the pews, in the union halls. How probable is it, though, that mainstream churches and unions will join a coalition led by the we-love-North-Korea set? Moreover, is it appropriate for groups and churches that care about human rights and worker rights abroad and at home to make common cause with those who champion socialist tyrants?

At the rally, speaker after speaker declared, “We are the real Americans.” But most “real Americans” do not see a direct connection between Mumia, the Cuban Five and the war against Iraq. Jackson, for one, exclaimed, “This time the silent majority is on our side.” If the goal is to bring the silent majority into the anti-war movement, it’s not going to be achieved by people carrying pictures of Kim Jong-Il — even if they keep them hidden in their wallets.
 
Tony said:


We have international law on our side. Resolution 1441 promised serious consequences if Iraq fail to abide by the UN resolutions.


I think this would fall under anti-americanism.

First, 1441 did not call for additional action without the approval of the UNSC. Bush couldn't get that approval, so he blew 'em off.

Second, it is not "anti-Americanism" to want us to operate in the world arena as a equal partner with other nations in building a better world. Some of us feel our power should not be brandished as would a bully in a playground.
 
DrChinese said:
Second, it is not "anti-Americanism" to want us to operate in the world arena as a equal partner with other nations in building a better world. Some of us feel our power should not be brandished as would a bully in a playground.

There is a difference between not brandishing power "as would a bully in a playground" and not having that power in the first place. The original quote sounded a lot more like the latter.
 
DrChinese said:


First, 1441 did not call for additional action without the approval of the UNSC. Bush couldn't get that approval, so he blew 'em off.

1441 called for serious consequences if Iraq failed to comply. Iraq did not comply and serious consequences followed.


Second, it is not "anti-Americanism" to want us to operate in the world arena as a equal partner with other nations in building a better world. Some of us feel our power should not be brandished as would a bully in a playground.

We are not equal with other nations, america has more power and influence. So why should we lower ourselves to thier level? Because its the "moral" thing to do? Spare me your ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.
 
Re: Re: ANTI-WAR OR ANTI-U.S.?

DrChinese said:


Thanks for giving me something to laugh about today. Can you do one about the bed-wetting "warmongers" next? (Hitler's birthday is April 20, maybe you can do something with that.)

Since you are so keen on hitler, ill let you dig that one up. :D
 
"We are not equal with other nations, america has more power and influence. So why should lower ourselves to thier level? Because its the "moral" thing to do? Spare me your ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊."

Spare me your nationalistic arrogance. Oh, and I suggest if you are trying to portray America as so high and mighty you might want to check your spelling first ;)
 
Tony said:



We are not equal with other nations, america has more power and influence. So why should lower ourselves to thier level? Because its the "moral" thing to do? Spare me your ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.

I think there is a big difference between this attitude and that shown by other Americans on this forum, such as Tricky, Headscrather etc.

They clearly love their country, but also are not afraid to question what it is doing.

I love my children, for example, but want them to do the right thing. If they do something wrong, I stand up for them, but I also make sure that they know that if they have done something wrong, what it was they have done wrong, why they should not do it again, and what they should have done instead.

If my son was the biggest kid in his class and a bully, I would not just say 'tough, he's bigger than the rest of you, should he apologise for that'.
 
DavidJames said:
"We are not equal with other nations, america has more power and influence. So why should lower ourselves to thier level? Because its the "moral" thing to do? Spare me your ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊."

Spare me your nationalistic arrogance. Oh, and I suggest if you are trying to portray America as so high and mighty you might want to check your spelling first ;)

It has nothing to do with nationalism. The simple fact is that america DOES have more power and influence. Why do you want to deny the facts?
 
Tony said:


It has nothing to do with nationalism. The simple fact is that america DOES have more power and influence. Why do you want to deny the facts?

No one denies, that. The question is, how should it act. All nations, regardless of their power, have to ask themselves that question.
 

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