Anti-English discrimination in Quebec

[fitzgibbon]

By the way, I'd like to make a formal apology for calling most Quebec politicians "racists". I was just angry when writing that posts. However, you do get your occasional Canada hater, Anglo-basher editors from French language journals such as Le Devoir and Le Quebecois (not that this doesn't exist in the English media as well, but just saying.....), as well as language militants such as the RRQ.

Every society is burdened with fools. Get used to it.

 

[blobru]

When did it become a good idea for government to control how culture evolves?

When did difference for the sake of difference become a good idea?

Beats me. When did we first become aware of culture? To take pleasure in seeing our particular experience, hopes and sorrows and joys, reflected in works of art. Begin to take pride in our local culture. Want to participate in the larger global cultural conversation by having our own unique and vibrant and interesting voice to add to it.

For some of us, those with a unique and vibrant culture, it must have happened quite a long time ago. For others, content with Transformers and Burger King and Britney Spears and whatever else comes floating downstream from the larger culture's sewers, it may never happen...

 

[Architect]

Culture is very hard to define, at least in the way we mean it here. Language is a cornerstone; it shapes our references, our reading material, how we see ourselves. One can also point to other aspects - traditions, educational system, political (small "p") outlook. It constantly changes, albeit very often rather slowly.

That said, smaller cultures can be under threat from external forces. In the case of Canada generally, one might point to the understandable influence of the US. Scotland might point to England, and so on. The question is therefore whether we do take steps to trey and preserve our cultures, allowing them to adapt naturally without the distortions that inevitably occur.

French in North America is an ideal case in point. There will naturally be huge pressure, deliberate or otherwise, from the vastly more numerous English speaking communities. Why even learn French? Is it just an abberation, a quirk of history long past its sell-by date? I'm damned sure some at least would have us think that.

The Qeubecois have a reasonable right to take steps to protect their own language, and culture; expecting residents to speak the majority language is not unreasonable per se, and I am at a loss to understand how anyone who had lived in a francophone country for any period found it impossible to learn enough to get by.

Recent history shows us all too many examples of cultures going down the drain, the speakers rapidly assimilated into the linguistic mainstream followed a generation or two later by traditions that went with it.

Scotland has long been domianted by it's southern neighbour and suffers many of the problems we see in Canada. We've been fortunate enough that many of our cultural cornerstones survived sufficiently intact to preserve a sense of nationhood and cultural identity. This is, however, ironic as I watch my own language and culture marginalised into a wider Scottish identity, pushed to the fringes of the media and practically excluded from mainstream life.^*
So go Quebec, go - together with the others that have the balls to fight the Anglophone hegemony, be they Welsh or French, Gaelic or Arab.....



* The language and culture, not the individuals.

 

[Canadian712]

The PQ would salivate over having a few dozen stick-in-the-mud carpers like you to point to showing just how les Québecois will never be able to work within Confederation because TROC (The Rest of Canada) just doesn't get it.

Quebec constantly whines about how federalism does not work for them, when in fact, Ottawa has done nothing but please and accommodate them in the last few decades or so. The whining mostly comes from the separatists who are thankfully not in power at the moment. Separatists just don't understand how well they have it with Canada.

What I don't get is how you can grow up in a bilingual province and suck at speaking French? Unless this was a conscious decision on your part or else you're older than you claim. I'm decades out of school and I still retain the basics of the French that was taught me in the teeming faux-Québecois suburb that is Mississauga.

If you absolutely must know, I have many difficulties with the French language. I've had many tutors in the past, including in CEGEP, but no avail. Having gone to English public school all your life plus having 99% of friends who are Anglo does not really help. Most other jobs I've had prior were in very Anglo environments.

Ottawa is not the capital of English Canada, it's the capital of Canada, which includes, allegedly, the province of Québec.

*facepalm* I mentioned Ottawa in the context of federal politics.

ETA: so now it's not 4% but 5%? Did 300000 people suddenly start to speak French since the last time you posted?

It's around 4 OR 5%. Not sure exactly.

 

[Pardalis]

Quebec constantly whines about how federalism does not work for them, when in fact, Ottawa has done nothing but please and accommodate them in the last few decades or so. The whining mostly comes from the separatists who are thankfully not in power at the moment. Separatists just don't understand how well they have it with Canada.

We made alot of pressure to ensure our rights are protected. It's a constant battle.

If you absolutely must know, I have many difficulties with the French language. I've had many tutors in the past, including in CEGEP, but no avail. Having gone to English public school all your life plus having 99% of friends who are Anglo does not really help. Most other jobs I've had prior were in very Anglo environments.

See how it would have been best for you to learn French at an early age?

You like to isolate yourself from the rest of the population, look what it got you.

*facepalm* I mentioned Ottawa in the context of federal politics.

And the federal government is the government for all provinces.

You still don't have a point.

 

[blobru]

Quebec constantly whines about how federalism does not work for them, when in fact, Ottawa has done nothing but please and accommodate them in the last few decades or so. The whining mostly comes from the separatists who are thankfully not in power at the moment. Separatists just don't understand how well they have it with Canada.

The constant whining in this thread sure isn't coming from Quebec separatists.

If you absolutely must know, I have many difficulties with the French language. I've had many tutors in the past, including in CEGEP, but no avail. Having gone to English public school all your life plus having 99% of friends who are Anglo does not really help. Most other jobs I've had prior were in very Anglo environments.

Assuming you're sincere about your efforts to learn French, may I suggest the caption mode on your tv? Most tv programs and movies have closed captioning, so you can follow along in words what's being said. It's a great way to learn another language (also, English movies with French sub-titles, and vice versa).

 

[fitzgibbon]

You still don't have a point.

Well, he might have one.

 

[D'rok]

Assuming you're sincere about your efforts to learn French, may I suggest the caption mode on your tv? Most tv programs and movies have closed captioning, so you can follow along in words what's being said. It's a great way to learn another language (also, English movies with French sub-titles, and vice versa).

That's a great idea. I don't know why I never thought of that. I tend to get overwhelmed if I try to keep up to French TV and movies.

 

[Cleon]

I speak French as well as any school boy who had it pounded in to his skull for 7 years of schooling, which is to say barely any at all.

The French are quite proficient in the language though, and they say they can't understand you guys

You're really trying to defend Quebecois culture, the French culture boat has sailed, perhaps while drinking wine and languidly smoking a cigarette.

...Because it's absolutely impossible that Quebecois culture can be unique and different from both anglo-Canadian and French cultures.

I can't say I have a dog in the fight (other than a passing interest), but posts like this almost make me want to send a few dollars to the PQ.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

...Because it's absolutely impossible that Quebecois culture can be unique and different from both anglo-Canadian and French cultures.

I can't say I have a dog in the fight (other than a passing interest), but posts like this almost make me want to send a few dollars to the PQ.

Then you must have extremely thin skin and or obsessive money sending disorder.

Show me where I said they can't have a unique culture. Some defend it as keeping the ancient French culture alive. I was merely nitpicking by saying it's really a Quebecois language and culture.

EDIT: Whoops, the rest of this was a Matrix quote that is pro French, but I just ran a translation of what it said, and it's not forum appropriate.

 

[blobru]

That's a great idea. I don't know why I never thought of that. I tend to get overwhelmed if I try to keep up to French TV and movies.

Free language lessons anytime you want them -- built into every television! Some other tips that helped me: comics like classic Asterix; hockey (with its repetitive phrases) on Radio-Canada (I love the French for "he goes after the puck": il cherche la rondelle; though "that's icing": ça fait un dégagement -- [hope I got those right] -- is a bit of a mouthful); "interior monologue" (describe to yourself in French, as best you can, filling in English words where you have to and looking them up later, what you're doing: I'm watching the Stanley Cup: Je regarde la Coupe Stanley; the damn Flyers just scored: les maudits Flyers vient de marquer; I'm beginning to sweat: Je commence a perspirer). To get the accent, ham it up a bit: explore your inner Black Jacques Shellac, then tone it back down. Reading (dual-language editions). Of course for fluency, there's no substitute for French conversation and immersion, but you can pick up a lot on your own with a little practice and effort. Like learning music, calculus, gardening... anything.

 

[D'rok]

Free language lessons anytime you want them -- built into every television! Some other tips that helped me: comics like classic Asterix; hockey (with its repetitive phrases) on Radio-Canada (I love the French for "he goes after the puck": il cherche la rondelle; though "that's icing": ça fait un dégagement -- [hope I got those right] -- is a bit of a mouthful); "interior monologue" (describe to yourself in French, as best you can, filling in English words where you have to and looking them up later, what you're doing: I'm watching the Stanley Cup: Je regarde la Coupe Stanley; the damn Flyers just scored: les maudits Flyers vient de marquer; I'm beginning to sweat: Je commence a perspirer). To get the accent, ham it up a bit: explore your inner Black Jacques Shellac, then tone it back down. Reading (dual-language editions). Of course for fluency, there's no substitute for French conversation and immersion, but you can pick up a lot on your own with a little practice and effort. Like learning music, calculus, gardening... anything.

I do the interior monologue thing all the time. I also try to be conscious of all the French in my environment, like ads on the bus and overheard conversations. One of these days I'll drop by the library and pick up some kids books.

I get a kick out of the Franglais around here too...t'as passé un bon weekend?

 

[Foolmewunz]

The constant whining in this thread sure isn't coming from Quebec separatists.



Assuming you're sincere about your efforts to learn French, may I suggest the caption mode on your tv? Most tv programs and movies have closed captioning, so you can follow along in words what's being said. It's a great way to learn another language (also, English movies with French sub-titles, and vice versa).

This is a practical idea. Especially with a language that has phonetic applications so different to your own. Hearing the word and seeing it at the same time is a pretty decent confirming tool. I say "confirming" because I presume a marginal knowledge of the language to start with. No one can learn a new language from sub-titles, I feel.

I was a little astounded in 2000, watching a PBS show about Napoleon's campaigns against Austria, to find myself correcting the sub-titles, aloud. The scholar they were interviewing would be saying something and I was picking it up with my barely-used-in-two-decades Quebecois, and reading the words. It was only about half way through the show that I realized I was understanding more than I would've thought myself capable of. That little bit of a refresher actually got me to tune in RFI for their news, which was on about 6 or 7 in the mornings.


As to the rest of the thread.....


J'ai mon voyage! (with a wink and a nod to Pardalis - surely there's another Montrealer/Montrealaise on these forums)

 

[Foolmewunz]

I do the interior monologue thing all the time. I also try to be conscious of all the French in my environment, like ads on the bus and overheard conversations. One of these days I'll drop by the library and pick up some kids books.

I get a kick out of the Franglais around here too...t'as passé un bon weekend?

Try the Asterix series in French. If you have a fairly "okay" (e.g. 1000/2000 words) vocabulary, you'll pick up some of the puns and word play. You can also get the same story in English if you root around in the collections, so you can compare them.

Actually, bon weekend is from that evil old country - France. I cannot recall - I want to say Yvon Deschamps - but Pardalis will know who did the renowned monologue on un bon boss/un good job (or is it un good boss/un bon job?).... Great take on joual.

 

[Pardalis]

Yes it is Deschamps. He is a master at self-derision, and alot of his early monologues give alot of insights into the life of French Canadians of that period.

 

[blobru]

This is a practical idea. Especially with a language that has phonetic applications so different to your own. Hearing the word and seeing it at the same time is a pretty decent confirming tool. I say "confirming" because I presume a marginal knowledge of the language to start with. No one can learn a new language from sub-titles, I feel.

You're right. I was assuming the smattering of French grammar and vocabulary Canadians outside Quebec get in grade school. Without the basics, captions aren't much help (however, even with just the basics, it's amazing how much comprehension one can pick up).

I was a little astounded in 2000, watching a PBS show about Napoleon's campaigns against Austria, to find myself correcting the sub-titles, aloud. The scholar they were interviewing would be saying something and I was picking it up with my barely-used-in-two-decades Quebecois, and reading the words. It was only about half way through the show that I realized I was understanding more than I would've thought myself capable of. That little bit of a refresher actually got me to tune in RFI for their news, which was on about 6 or 7 in the mornings.

I've noticed something similar: besides occasional errors, how much room there is for rephrasing the original in translations. With a sensitive translator, I guess it's all about capturing the proper idiom, rather than rendering it word-for-word.

As to the rest of the thread.....


J'ai mon voyage! (with a wink and a nod to Pardalis - surely there's another Montrealer/Montrealaise on these forums)

Speaking of idiom: better translated as "I've had it up to here!" or "I've had enough!" than literally "I have my voyage!"

 

[fitzgibbon]

(with a wink and a nod to Pardalis - surely there's another Montrealer/Montrealaise on these forums)

There's at least one Trawna boy for you to both look down on.

 

[Architect]

Try the Asterix series in French. If you have a fairly "okay" (e.g. 1000/2000 words) vocabulary, you'll pick up some of the puns and word play. You can also get the same story in English if you root around in the collections, so you can compare them.

That's just what we did in school here; Asterix books, or Roald Dahl - stuff we were familiar with in English (or Gaelic, in my case) then moving on to the papers where we would propbably know the general gist of a story from the media and could pick up useful vocabularly.

Hell, it's not like you have to start with this kind of detailed stuff when working in a different language, but it'll amaze you how much you can get once you know the basics (and in our weather forecasts, the words "rain" and "gales" do crop up frequently).....

 

[Architect]

If you absolutely must know, I have many difficulties with the French language. I've had many tutors in the past, including in CEGEP, but no avail. Having gone to English public school all your life plus having 99% of friends who are Anglo does not really help. Most other jobs I've had prior were in very Anglo environments.

With respect, I find it very hard to believe that you're having these difficulties whilst living in a francophone area; media, everyday life, etc. all provide daily opportunities to expand grammar and understanding.

Stuff memorising the whole "entrer, rentrer, arriver, rester, monter, ascende" and conjugating with etre bit for a start.....you can pick that up as you go along.

 

[Segnosaur]

Except for the businessmen who wanted to use English signs/labels and were told "you can't do that".

Obviously those signs are just figments from my imagination.
Odyssey Bookstore
Excel Plus Dry cleaner
Foundation of Catholic Community Services Inc.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with Quebec's signage laws (especially since you don't have your location shown), so forgive me if you're familiar with this...

First of all, the way that the law was originally enacted is that no English was allowed. Admittedly, the laws have been liberalized in that English is now allowed, but must include French. Admittedly, this is much less abusive than in the past, but it is still a violation of the ideal of free speech. (Perhaps I should have said you can't use only English.)

Secondly, those laws also apply to labels on products. (I didn't bother mentioning that earlier because I didn't want to get dragged down into details.) But a few years ago the Quebec government ran into some controversy because they tried to ban specialized food used for Jewish passover because it wasn't labeled in French.