Another terrorist attack - London Bridge

[baron]

There are one thousand FEWER armed police under May.

MI5/MI6 have very close links with the police, often providing undercover cops for intelligence gathering.

If we know from what's happened in Europe in several countries on several occasions, it should have been #1 priority to move in on these self-styled jihadists.

Go and find out the difference between armed police and the security services, then you can address what I wrote and not what you imagine I wrote.

And for the last time, are you going to answer my question: I'm waiting for your explanation of how extra uniformed officers would have prevented this attack

 

[Vixen]

Go and find out the difference between armed police and the security services, then you can address what I wrote and not what you imagine I wrote.

And for the last time, are you going to answer my question: I'm waiting for your explanation of how extra uniformed officers would have prevented this attack

Ear to the ground. See what's going on in their own community.

Note the cops questioning the 'hate preachers' outside the park where London Bridge killer participated in unfurling an IS flag.

Those uniformed officers came from somewhere.

It was a 'low tech' attack. These were people consorting in person. Coming and going from visible and physical places.

Enter community friendly uniformed police who can SEE what goes on.

 

[Garrison]

Ear to the ground. See what's going on in their own community.

Note the cops questioning the 'hate preachers' outside the park where London Bridge killer participated in unfurling an IS flag.

Those uniformed officers came from somewhere.

It was a 'low tech' attack. These were people consorting in person. Coming and going from visible and physical places.

Enter community friendly uniformed police who can SEE what goes on.

Which is more or less what the representative of the police Federation had to say:

Police Fed calls for more community policing
Posted at
15:17
The Police Federation of England and Wales has called for more investment in neighbourhood policing.
We're in danger of sleep-walking towards another tragedy if we don't recognise right now that community policing is on the critical list. We know the information to stop these mindless attacks exists within communities and great work is being done to forge strong, valuable relationships to capture this. But it cannot be jeopardised by reducing the contact the police has with the public.
Calum Macleod
Vice-chairman, Police Federation

 

[Darat]

I didn't know that. In the USA, they retain police powers.
...snip...

Weird country!

 

[dudalb]

Most of the 'founding fathers' of the USA were active freemasons.

As they had the hegemony anyway, they had no need for guerilla warfare, because let us not forget the whole point of terrorism is to overthrow the current state.

God, you buy into the Masonic Conspiracy Crap?

 

[baron]

Ear to the ground. See what's going on in their own community.

Note the cops questioning the 'hate preachers' outside the park where London Bridge killer participated in unfurling an IS flag.

Those uniformed officers came from somewhere.

Yes they did, and as you say they were already there! All they could have done was inform the security services of their suspicions, yet the security services had already been informed. Extra uniformed officers would have made no difference. The failing is that there are tens of thousands of wanabee terrorists out there and we don't have the resource in the security services to deal with even a tenth of them, nor could there ever be such capacity.

It was a 'low tech' attack. These were people consorting in person. Coming and going from visible and physical places.

Enter community friendly uniformed police who can SEE what goes on.

I don't object to the idea that there should be more beat cops but I suspect you, and Calum Macleod in the referencing post, has no experience of these communities. These aren't nice little communities where a friendly bobby can pop round for a cup tea and a chat, they are hostile ghettos where cop cars are bottled if they make the mistake of even showing up. Even those areas where beat cops are tolerated you can bet nobody will take them into their confidence.

 

[Ambrosia]

I understand but it would be a minimal number of guns leaking into the population if it's only the police that get them. And here I'm talking about pistols without high capacity magazines. Also if you don't have ammunition for sale the bad guys have to somehow acquire that to be able to carry out massive shootings.

No.

No, no, no, no, no and furthermore no.

It'll be a cold day in hell before the regular policeman here is armed. There is no need. We have armed police units, they get on the scene of anything bad that's happening pretty dam quickly (they shot these 3 ********* dead inside of 8 minutes) . If the regular police are armed, then criminals have an incentive to get guns (guns aren't THAT hard to come by over here) and before you know it we have guns all over the place and instead of jihadists driving cars into people and stabbing them with knives, which is already bad enough thanks, we have armed jihadists shooting people with guns.

ANY small amount of guns leaking into the population is too many. End of sentence.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Weird country!

My uncle, when he was a cop in an L A burb, was required by his job to carry his weapon when he was off duty.

 

[Aber]

Enter community friendly uniformed police who can SEE what goes on.

And what next?

Can you arrest them if they have not committed a crime?

If not, how do you stop them carrying out an attack at a time of their own choosing?

 

[quadraginta]

The KKK was more to do with white supremacy and freemasonry than Christianity. They used a burning cross because someone thought it made a fantastic symbol.

Vehemently anti-Catholic, Klan members had an explicitly Protestant Christian terrorist ideology, basing their beliefs in part on a "religious foundation" in Protestant Christianity.[13] The goals of the KKK included, from an early time onward, an intent to "reestablish Protestant Christian values in America by any means possible", and they believed that "Jesus was the first Klansman."[14] Although members of the KKK swear to uphold Christian morality, virtually every Christian denomination has officially denounced the KKK.[15] From 1915 onward, Klansmen conducted cross-burnings not only to intimidate targets, but also to demonstrate their respect and reverence for Jesus Christ, and the ritual of lighting crosses was steeped in Christian symbolism, including prayer and hymn singing.[16] Within Christianity the Klan directed its hostilities against Catholics. Modern Klan organizations remain associated with acts of domestic terrorism in the United States.[17][/hilite]

Well done in managing to find the example of one Quaker and half a dozen abortion clinic vandals.

It isn't hard when there is such an abundance to choose from.

Neither one of these is a recruiting body for 'Christian terrorism', so thank you for illustrating that Christianity is a poor analogy to the so-called ISIS jihadists.

See above cite.

The KKK has quite explicitly stated that their goals are based on their religious beliefs and aspirations, and that the imperative of defending those religious beliefs is what provides the moral justification for the atrocities they commit.

Sound familiar?

One really is grasping at straws to make such an atrocious comparison.

"reestablish Protestant Christian values in America by any means possible"
​

Sound familiar? Replace "Protestant Christian" with "Islamic" and it would be exactly the sort of statement which when made by terrorist Islamist fundies is used by Islamophobes to paint all Muslims as evil and dangerous.

And yet, to you, it is somehow different.

This is a perfect example the sort of hypocrisy which shows Islamophobic bigots for what they are.

 

[Belgian thought]

​

It isn't hard when there is such an abundance to choose from.




See above cite.

The KKK has quite explicitly stated that their goals are based on their religious beliefs and aspirations, and that the imperative of defending those religious beliefs is what provides the moral justification for the atrocities they commit.

Sound familiar?

"reestablish Protestant Christian values in America by any means possible"
​

Sound familiar? Replace "Protestant Christian" with "Islamic" and it would be exactly the sort of statement which when made by terrorist Islamist fundies is used by Islamophobes to paint all Muslims as evil and dangerous.

And yet, to you, it is somehow different.

This is a perfect example the sort of hypocrisy which shows Islamophobic bigots for what they are.

No it doesn't - what is lacking now, and was most probably lacking when the KKK was growing, is/was intellectual honesty.

 

[quadraginta]

The first highlight is a constant discussion in the UK, it wanes in and out of public discussion often after such an attack.

The second one is a no-way, if off-duty police officers can carry guns than so should I, and I really don't see the UK adopting such a fundamental change.

Remember if citizens were allowed to carry firearms such as pistols then the attackers would have been armed with those firearms.

It's almost like the U.K.s gun control measures actually ... gasp ... work.

 

[quadraginta]

AIUI that policeman was a British Transport Police, so not sure he'd be given arms anyway.

I do know all police in Germany are armed, or that's what I was told by a German cop!

The downside to that is that some of these guns find their way into the criminal world, although this is probably more true of third world countries.

And these terrorists had no guns. Imagine how much more carnage they could have managed if they had.

Could it be that the U.K.'s gun policies kept them from easy access to firearms, to the point where it was just that much less trouble to go on their rampage armed only with knives?

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>


An off- duty cop with a gun is indistinguishable from a civilian until the time that they need to act. What happens depends on the context. These off-duty cops also carry a star badge wallet thing that can be pulled out and displayed. They can yell "police!" and usually do. Actually firing the gun is a last necessary resort. You have the potential to disarm knife-wielders if you display a gun. "Police! Drop the knife and put your hands up."

<snip>

Sure. Our experiences here show how foolproof the training to de-escalate is. Why would cops shoot at the least hint of a threat. ("Look out!!! He's reaching for his pocket!"). It isn't like they would shoot someone for reaching into their car after they ordered them to reach into their car, or felt "threatened" by a guy lying on his back in the street with both hands in the air.

It's the perfect model. And we have demonstrated its success. I can't imagine how the Brits could possibly watch the events in our country and ever even question the wisdom of such an approach.

 

[Vixen]

​

It isn't hard when there is such an abundance to choose from.




See above cite.

The KKK has quite explicitly stated that their goals are based on their religious beliefs and aspirations, and that the imperative of defending those religious beliefs is what provides the moral justification for the atrocities they commit.

Sound familiar?

"reestablish Protestant Christian values in America by any means possible"
​

Sound familiar? Replace "Protestant Christian" with "Islamic" and it would be exactly the sort of statement which when made by terrorist Islamist fundies is used by Islamophobes to paint all Muslims as evil and dangerous.

And yet, to you, it is somehow different.

This is a perfect example the sort of hypocrisy which shows Islamophobic bigots for what they are.

I spotted this quote by someone strongly rebutting the view by writer Graeme Wood (Yale journalist) who wrote 'The Way of Strangers' about what makes ISIS tick. He pin-pointed the Qu'ran text itself, often dismissed by modern day Muslims as 'medieval' and reinterpreted by scholars. Anyway, the rebuttal says - ironically -

Wood can’t be bothered with that wider context. What interests him is chatting theology with armchair militants over lattes. Isn’t it notable that Wood couldn’t find ISIS supporters in the US, but had to travel across the world to meet them in the UK and Australia? Isn’t it notable that, for someone who is so interested in theology, Wood couldn’t be bothered to meet with a single mainstream Muslim theologian of repute? Isn’t it notable that Wood conducted his interviews in coffee shops and not mosques? Maybe it is because self-taught, fringe cartoon characters like Anjem Choudary and Musa Cerantonio don’t have mosques or any kind of institutional presence, let alone authority, in the Muslim community.

'Fringe cartoon character Anjem Choudary'? Really? The London Bridge killer, Khuram Butt AND the Lee Rigby killer are DIRECT followers of Anjem Choudary, so maybe it is time to take Wood seriously.

It is NOT Islamophobia; it is an objective observation.

It shows Graeme Wood was on the right track all along.

As for the KKK, you yourself say it was a protestant vs catholic assertion, not 'Christian terrorism' per se. A kind of sectarianism, of the type we have seen in Norn.

ETA I want to add that mainstream Islam does not endorse suicide bombers.

 

[William Parcher]

Sure. Our experiences here show how foolproof the training to de-escalate is. Why would cops shoot at the least hint of a threat. ("Look out!!! He's reaching for his pocket!"). It isn't like they would shoot someone for reaching into their car after they ordered them to reach into their car, or felt "threatened" by a guy lying on his back in the street with both hands in the air.

It's the perfect model. And we have demonstrated its success. I can't imagine how the Brits could possibly watch the events in our country and ever even question the wisdom of such an approach.

Look, I don't know the statistical record of armed British cops shooting unarmed civilians. I don't know if it matches America and that it would make it more dangerous to arm more British police. I do know that two unarmed cops tangled with these attackers who were holding very large knives. That was before the armed cops arrived.

 

[quadraginta]

There is no KKK like there was in the 1920's;it splintered in the 1930's into dozens of separate groups, each claming to be the only true and original Klan.
Does not make them any less disgusting and reprehensible,though.

Or any less dangerous.

 

[quadraginta]

Most of the 'founding fathers' of the USA were active freemasons.

As they had the hegemony anyway, they had no need for guerilla warfare, because let us not forget the whole point of terrorism is to overthrow the current state.

Or sometimes to preserve it.

Terrorism is not limited to insurgencies and revolutionaries. Often it is also used against them. Sometimes it is used just to discourage their formation.

 

[Graham2001]

Anti-Vaxxers are now claiming that the attack was faked up to distract from a protest they were holding on the same day.

I am used to conspiracy garbage but this really enraged me.




How could someone do this, a Mother?


This attack was carried out by extremists, terrorists.


Adele Allen has taken this vile attack and turned it into conspiracy claptrap in a bid to promote the anti vaccine cult!

https://fionaolearyblog.wordpress.com/2017/06/05/anti-vaxxers-show-their-true-colours/

 

[McHrozni]

The second one is a no-way, if off-duty police officers can carry guns than so should I, and I really don't see the UK adopting such a fundamental change.

Policemen off-duty are obligated (by honor, sometimes also by contract) to immediately put themselves on-duty if situation demands. This was one such case, though it doesn't have to be anywhere near as extreme. Being off-duty does not make a policeman an ordinary civilian if circumstances demand it. It's the same principle as with doctors, firemen and other emergency services. If you're a doctor who walks away from an injured person you're liable for significantly greater penalties - including a revocation of license to practice your trade - than someone who is not a trained physician.

As a result off-duty police are allowed to carry guns 24/7 in most jurisdictions, regardless of gun carrying laws. This does not translate into a generally armed public nor would it make these vermin more likely to be armed.

McHrozni