farmermike
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bluess said:
Another sincere question for theists...
Atlas
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As I pondered Bluess' questions "Why believe in this God" and "What purpose does it serve?" I came to similar answers to Belle.
1) He's really the only god in town.
2) There is a real physiological inducement derived from submission, admitting you do not control, and praying in hope. This posture when adopted does result in "feel good" brain chemical release that may be the source of the feeling that God is real and loves us.
But is there any other proof.
Remember BF Skinner and the Behaviorist model of psychology. He did experiments on different schedules of reinforcement. A constant schedule (say 5 presses on the bar for a food pellet) yeilded what we might project as sane behavior in the rat. It pressed the bar when hungry. When contrasted with the varying schedule (food pellets appear sometimes after 3 presses, then 20 presses then 5 then 2 then 30 - ie a random schedule) we projected a rather more insane behavior. There was near total obsession with the pressbar. They pounded it all day long. No other schedule of reinforcement was so powerful in its effect than what was termed "superstitious" reinforcement.
God answers our prayers (and I mean any god Bluess) in a very similar random pattern. And it serves to make the one who prays cling more closely to the behavior, the belief and whichever god delivers.
I want to add two more thoughts. Parents often want their child to grow up aware and conforming to the authority structure of society. This brings it own benefits. So a religious society tends to produce more believers.
Second, it is possible that with practice, the prayerful state produces positive results every engagement. That is, it is no longer superstitious but reverts back to a much more sane appearing behavior. It provides a peace, sureness, and contentment that serves as an example to those less adept. The less adept with their chaotic lives yearn to achieve the benefits promised in the religious literature and exemplified in the life of a few around them. They chase the 'food pellets' aggressively and ineffectually.
1) He's really the only god in town.
2) There is a real physiological inducement derived from submission, admitting you do not control, and praying in hope. This posture when adopted does result in "feel good" brain chemical release that may be the source of the feeling that God is real and loves us.
But is there any other proof.
Remember BF Skinner and the Behaviorist model of psychology. He did experiments on different schedules of reinforcement. A constant schedule (say 5 presses on the bar for a food pellet) yeilded what we might project as sane behavior in the rat. It pressed the bar when hungry. When contrasted with the varying schedule (food pellets appear sometimes after 3 presses, then 20 presses then 5 then 2 then 30 - ie a random schedule) we projected a rather more insane behavior. There was near total obsession with the pressbar. They pounded it all day long. No other schedule of reinforcement was so powerful in its effect than what was termed "superstitious" reinforcement.
God answers our prayers (and I mean any god Bluess) in a very similar random pattern. And it serves to make the one who prays cling more closely to the behavior, the belief and whichever god delivers.
I want to add two more thoughts. Parents often want their child to grow up aware and conforming to the authority structure of society. This brings it own benefits. So a religious society tends to produce more believers.
Second, it is possible that with practice, the prayerful state produces positive results every engagement. That is, it is no longer superstitious but reverts back to a much more sane appearing behavior. It provides a peace, sureness, and contentment that serves as an example to those less adept. The less adept with their chaotic lives yearn to achieve the benefits promised in the religious literature and exemplified in the life of a few around them. They chase the 'food pellets' aggressively and ineffectually.
bluess
Illuminator
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Karen:
I've listened to and read many a personal testimonial - not only from believers in the Christ (various sects), but also Jewish, Wiccan, animal-totems, Hindu (various sects) ...
In my high-school years, having been raised in a supportive void (my parents were/are both very religious but did not require me to take part in the Hindu equivalent of Sunday school indoctrination), I went to services at any church/temple a friend would take me to.
None of these testimonials or other experiences have ever lead me to believe or feel that I am a sinful unworthy flawed damnable spirit deserving of eternal torment. Heck, I can't even buy into the Buddhist light philosophy touted in USA, again because of the inherent flaws in the stated systems.
Now, I personally believe that there is unity in the universe, and that by personal action of behaving ethically and compassionately we can improve the conditions of the universe. This in no way leads me to believe in a personalized vengeful deity. I am positive that my crying out to the heavens to change the weather, catastrophes, casual indignities and horrid injustices will not make a bit of difference, but that my taking action on those things I can, will. And I don't need the threat of eternal damnation or the promise of eternal reward to act.
The scriptures you have quoted just make me scratch my head and continue to wonder why the heck you believe.
So, I guess we'll stay on these different roads. Since you seem to be a fairly nice human, I would hope that you could spend less energy beating yourself into submission to your scripture. However, I have no desire to make you believe differently as long as you don't use your beliefs as a weapon against my cheerfully liberal life.
Bluess, going off to a holiday party to drink eggnog and NOT discuss religion or alternate lifestyles with any member of her very consertive office.
I've listened to and read many a personal testimonial - not only from believers in the Christ (various sects), but also Jewish, Wiccan, animal-totems, Hindu (various sects) ...
In my high-school years, having been raised in a supportive void (my parents were/are both very religious but did not require me to take part in the Hindu equivalent of Sunday school indoctrination), I went to services at any church/temple a friend would take me to.
None of these testimonials or other experiences have ever lead me to believe or feel that I am a sinful unworthy flawed damnable spirit deserving of eternal torment. Heck, I can't even buy into the Buddhist light philosophy touted in USA, again because of the inherent flaws in the stated systems.
Now, I personally believe that there is unity in the universe, and that by personal action of behaving ethically and compassionately we can improve the conditions of the universe. This in no way leads me to believe in a personalized vengeful deity. I am positive that my crying out to the heavens to change the weather, catastrophes, casual indignities and horrid injustices will not make a bit of difference, but that my taking action on those things I can, will. And I don't need the threat of eternal damnation or the promise of eternal reward to act.
The scriptures you have quoted just make me scratch my head and continue to wonder why the heck you believe.
So, I guess we'll stay on these different roads. Since you seem to be a fairly nice human, I would hope that you could spend less energy beating yourself into submission to your scripture. However, I have no desire to make you believe differently as long as you don't use your beliefs as a weapon against my cheerfully liberal life.
Bluess, going off to a holiday party to drink eggnog and NOT discuss religion or alternate lifestyles with any member of her very consertive office.
Farmermike
To paraphrase: I’m right because I believe this way and so do you even if you say you don’t.
Oh, and incorrect to boot.
Ossai
Ignorance. There have been a number of other threads on other messiahs. Most of which list some quiet good reference materials.
What a condescending statement.
To paraphrase: I’m right because I believe this way and so do you even if you say you don’t.
Oh, and incorrect to boot.
Sincere question, do you actually hear voices in your head? Are they different than your own voice?
Why not follow your own advise and google some Muslim testimonies. They are all equally compelling and filled with the same type of illogic.
Let’s see, we aren’t in control of our destiny i.e. whether we’ll end up in heaven or hell, but we’ll be punished anyway.
Ossai
farmermike
Critical Thinker
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Atlas said:
Atlas
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Well, in Biblical terms it's probably the same outcome as adding one brick on top of another in constructing a tower of Babel.Karen said:
That's not really what I'm hoping for. I kinda admire your sticktoitiveness. But it is a public forum and you make thought provoking posts in an area where most of the posters have chosen a different belief pattern. It's difficult for any of us to let your ideas go unchallenged. It's a natural outcome of posting here. Likewise people like you challenge our views. The hope is that in the exchange neither of us fall in destruction but are edified by one another's truths. It's that truth thing we're wrestling over.
I'm agnostic, but was once an ardent theist/Christian. I can tell you why I believed.
One- I was brainwashed/conditioned to
My family brought me up as a Catholic, so it was a few years before I started questioning it all. My first doubts showed up in second grade.
Two- Woo experience
I was praying in church during break in fourth grade. My best friend at the time had come with me, sitting in a pew adjacent from mine. Pray, pray, pray and then I saw a ball of light flit around the room. It seemed to have substance in that it wasn't just a reflection of light on hard surfaces(it would float in mid-air in the middle of the room) and was opaque. It was very fast and at one point flew right over my head. My friend saw it too, and we both described the same appearance and behavior.
I spent countless Masses from then on ignoring the service and studying the very small stained glass windows in the church trying to figure out how the light may have been caused by the sun or passing cars or whatever. I never found a reasonable explanation. Because of that, and the fact that another person saw it as well, I took it as proof that something existed "out there". As a properly brainwashed Christian, I assumed it was the Holy Spirit.
I prayed numerous times throughout the day at this age and was determined to be a nun in the Sisters of Charity when I graduated high school. I had a hard time with other Christians though, because what they described as faith seemed very foreign to me. I spent a long time in prayer before bed every night, but would never 'invoke' Jesus' name or anything like that. I never heard voices in my head, but would simply work through whatever emotions I had, guilt, awe, ecstasy. Sometimes I mulled over something particular. At all times I would concentrate as intently I could. I was in the process of reading throught the Bible as well, but I found the subject matter troubling.
I took my religion very seriously but realized that all those meany-pants Christians claimed they believed in the same guy I believed in. If they could be so obviously wrong (to me)in what they were doing, I began to think about other faiths. I started reading the writings of many other religions and trying to reconcile it all, and did one of those 'ask Jesus which religion was true' things. I proposed to Jesus that I would continue studying these other faiths, and he could 'reveal' to me which one, if any, was true. Several weeks later I revisited the question in my head and realized that I no longer believed Christianity was better/different than some others. He 'answered' my question.
I lost my faith probably the same way all you other formerly faithful people did, and now I think religion is primarily a conversation with oneself in one's head, combined with the physiological changes that take place with intense concentration. As well as a social club and tool of social control by gangs of people who want to control everyone else. As for my woo experience, I still believe I saw something in the church that day, but it could have been anything, and as I've never seen it again, I don't really care what it was.
One- I was brainwashed/conditioned to
My family brought me up as a Catholic, so it was a few years before I started questioning it all. My first doubts showed up in second grade.
Two- Woo experience
I was praying in church during break in fourth grade. My best friend at the time had come with me, sitting in a pew adjacent from mine. Pray, pray, pray and then I saw a ball of light flit around the room. It seemed to have substance in that it wasn't just a reflection of light on hard surfaces(it would float in mid-air in the middle of the room) and was opaque. It was very fast and at one point flew right over my head. My friend saw it too, and we both described the same appearance and behavior.
I spent countless Masses from then on ignoring the service and studying the very small stained glass windows in the church trying to figure out how the light may have been caused by the sun or passing cars or whatever. I never found a reasonable explanation. Because of that, and the fact that another person saw it as well, I took it as proof that something existed "out there". As a properly brainwashed Christian, I assumed it was the Holy Spirit.
I prayed numerous times throughout the day at this age and was determined to be a nun in the Sisters of Charity when I graduated high school. I had a hard time with other Christians though, because what they described as faith seemed very foreign to me. I spent a long time in prayer before bed every night, but would never 'invoke' Jesus' name or anything like that. I never heard voices in my head, but would simply work through whatever emotions I had, guilt, awe, ecstasy. Sometimes I mulled over something particular. At all times I would concentrate as intently I could. I was in the process of reading throught the Bible as well, but I found the subject matter troubling.
I took my religion very seriously but realized that all those meany-pants Christians claimed they believed in the same guy I believed in. If they could be so obviously wrong (to me)in what they were doing, I began to think about other faiths. I started reading the writings of many other religions and trying to reconcile it all, and did one of those 'ask Jesus which religion was true' things. I proposed to Jesus that I would continue studying these other faiths, and he could 'reveal' to me which one, if any, was true. Several weeks later I revisited the question in my head and realized that I no longer believed Christianity was better/different than some others. He 'answered' my question.
I lost my faith probably the same way all you other formerly faithful people did, and now I think religion is primarily a conversation with oneself in one's head, combined with the physiological changes that take place with intense concentration. As well as a social club and tool of social control by gangs of people who want to control everyone else. As for my woo experience, I still believe I saw something in the church that day, but it could have been anything, and as I've never seen it again, I don't really care what it was.
Atlas
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In another arena, it would have been a UFO and you would have carried a belief in aliens for many years before questioning the value of the belief.kimiko said:
It's amazing to me how my own experience and yours were automatically interpreted within the symbols most readily at hand. It tells us more about ourselves and the way our minds work than any underlying truth or reality.
Have you had a problem with jrefers trying to control you? Encouraging people to use more critical thinking and pointing out logical flaws isn't controlling. And seeing how this is an internet forum, everyone is free to come and go as they please.Riddick said:
I'm most interested in how that was the only part of my post you found worth commenting on.
Farmermike
What a condescending statement.
To paraphrase: I’m right because I believe this way and so do you, even if you say you don’t.
Oh, and incorrect to boot.
Ossai
Instead of focusing on what we can actually do to help others let’s worry about ourselves.
At the base ‘superstitious’ level they also believed the world was flat.
Again, I’ll repeat myself.
What a condescending statement.
To paraphrase: I’m right because I believe this way and so do you, even if you say you don’t.
Oh, and incorrect to boot.
Ossai
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
And you can't understand that this is because you happened to have been born in the USA instead of China?farmermike said:
Do you understand, that of the billions of people who are alive or have ever lived, only a tiny fraction have ever heard of Christianity?
Enjoy your Pringles.
farmermike
Critical Thinker
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Ossai said:
bluess
Illuminator
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farmermike said:
Hunh? Proof?
And why do you think you need to be saved?
Of all the various oddities of religions, the whole 'You must be saved' idea is the one that least makes sense to me.
I say any deity who puts out a product that stinks so badly should be smacked in the head by all the other deities at their next millenium conference.
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
never mind...
farmermike
Critical Thinker
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bluess said:
**********************************
Good one.
To quote myself, "We tend not to like the solution(to our impotence) because it positions us in a place of need." Honestly, Christianity at its best, is less a religion, than a personal, soul-to-soul, relationship between "unequals". Aroma therapy.