Another sincere question for theists...

[bluess]

FarmerMike (Karen) - and ElliotFC:

I just cannot understand why you choose to believe in a deity who says you're guilty starting out of the gate based on something a progenitor chose to do many, many, many generations ago.

I cannot understand why you choose to believe in a deity who tortured his son in your place.

I cannot understand why you choose to believe in a deity who will torture you for all eternity (whether you believe that torture is a lake of fire, or just absence from THE presence) because you did exactly what you were created to do.

Karen, you especially seem to be thoughtful and compassionate, and pretty serene in the face of all the comments thus far made. I have a very hard time understanding why you want to believe in a creator who, while supposely BETTER than you are, is thoughtless enough to punish an creation he imperfectly made, cruel enough to blame that creation for his (the creator's) faults, and whacked enough to go smiting generations left and right (remember your book's story of the flood?) in a hissy fit. Why not a deity or deities who are kind and who don't need unnatural sacrifices?

What is it about this religion that has you hooked?

I'm frustrated because I just don't understand your mindset. I'm almost willing to just give it up and accept I'll never be able to walk a mile in your shoes, but please help me out here.

Thanks.

Bluess, weeping the blues.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Certainly the theology of the Bible writers evolved over the centuries.

<center> </center>

 

[Kitty Chan]

Why does he so often take his anger out on the innocent?

Babies, those whom have never heard of God, perhaps the mentaly handicapped are innocent.

Now with them off the list, who is innocent that has existed in history.

 

[Kitty Chan]

[B
Kitty Chan

Not quiet, at least not from me. I’ve been trying to point out the incongruities of what is in the bible vs. what people profess to believe vs. the logical inconsistencies of both and the results of each.
Ossai [/B]

Well I thank you for discussion because its only discussion when name calling is absent.

 

[Belle]

Babies, those whom have never heard of God, perhaps the mentaly handicapped are innocent.

Now with them off the list, who is innocent that has existed in history.

So - guess you need scripture...

After God has sufficiently hardened the Pharaoh's heart, he kills all the firstborn Egyptian children. When he was finished "there was not a house where there was not one dead." Finally, he runs out of little babies to kill, so he slaughters the firstborn cattle, too. Genesis 12:29-30

"I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." Any god that would make such a statement is worse than jealous, although that would be bad enough. He is cruel and unjust as well. Genesis 20:5

God promises to "send his fear before the Israelites" and to kill everyone that they encounter when they enter the promised land. Genesis 23:27

God describes the torments that he has planned for those who displease him. The usual stuff: plagues, burning fevers that will consume the eyes, etc. but he reserves the worst for the little children. He says "ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it," "I will send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children," and "ye shall eat the flesh of your sons and daughters." Leviticus 26:16-39

Lots more, but want one New Testament?

Jesus says he will kill the children of Jezebel. (I suppose that includes all nonchristian children.) Revelations 2:23

Or maybe you can tell me why Jesus agrees with the OT in that those who dishonor their parents should be put to death, and then tells men can't follow him unless they hate and abandon their family - including their parents?

...or why disabled people aren't allowed in the temple because they will defile it?

...or why you even bother to convert others when whether or not we're saved in the end is pre-determined?

Go ahead - but I'll be shocked if it's not the same thing I'd come up with were I handed this as a debate position...

Hmmm - doesn't it seem strange that a disbelieving sinner can reach the same conclusions through warped thinking as you do through typical Christian rationalization?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Babies, those whom have never heard of God, perhaps the mentaly handicapped are innocent.

Now with them off the list, who is innocent that has existed in history.

How many innocent children do you suppose were killed in the flood? ( Not that I believe the flood in the Bible took place, just asking one who does.. )

 

[Belle]

Ooooo... Oooo... Can I answer? Please???

How many innocent children do you suppose were killed in the flood? ( Not that I believe the flood in the Bible took place, just asking one who does.. )

...and we'll see how different my non-believer reationalization is from Kitty Chan's


Well, you see... the world was beyond saving at this point, with the only righteous man left being Noah. We cannot begin to understand God and his reasoning, because it is beyond our abilities - but the lives of the children who passed away in the flood would surely have been much worse had God not created the flood and taken them into heaven.

Hey Kitty - did I come close???

 

[Kitty Chan]

Babies, those whom have never heard of God, perhaps the mentaly handicapped are innocent.

Now with them off the list, who is innocent that has existed in history.

Pharoh was not innocent he had done bad things in his life that was one person.

I covered babies which are children sorry bout that.

In all thats said no one has said WHO is innocent in history.

Even if one wants to blame Adam and Eve for poor judgement, which was passed to us, fine. Then that one should be innocent then, who is it?

 

[Belle]

Pharoh was not innocent he had done bad things in his life that was one person.

I covered babies which are children sorry bout that.

In all thats said no one has said WHO is innocent in history.

Even if one wants to blame Adam and Eve for poor judgement, which was passed to us, fine. Then that one should be innocent then, who is it?

Pharaoh may not have been innocent, but check your bible - seems that your God continuously "hardened his heart" to make certain that "his" people would not be let go and more plagues/torment would be inflicted on not only Pharaoh, but his people as well.

Seems Jesus is attributed with saying "suffer the little children to come unto me, for such is the Kingdom of Heaven"... seems to me that makes a fairly good biblical case for a child's innocence, albeit the only one I know of - do you know any more like that? Lots of other verses indicate the opposite.

 

[Kitty Chan]

Pharaoh may not have been innocent, but check your bible - seems that your God continuously "hardened his heart" to make certain that "his" people would not be let go and more plagues/torment would be inflicted on not only Pharaoh, but his people as well.

Seems Jesus is attributed with saying "suffer the little children to come unto me, for such is the Kingdom of Heaven"... seems to me that makes a fairly good biblical case for a child's innocence, albeit the only one I know of - do you know any more like that? Lots of other verses indicate the opposite.

Pharaoh was a hard case, if his heart was hardened it was Pharaohs doing to begin with. God only gave him what he wanted.

Jesus said if you accept Him trusting like the children, those with a child like heart (unlike Pharaohs). Jesus had the child bring the loaves and fishes made the child important.

You have to read the whole to see the picture, if you dont understand that God came to a earth in the OT which was already violent and full of war and the people worshipped many gods. The place was in need of direction. Which He gave to the Jews. He showed them how to treat one another, cleaniness, food handling, medical treatment, fair business practice, land management. And since the culture was already violent how to handle war. Wars were not handled in the same way each time.

One hears of things happening but if you dont understand why ww2 came about you would think they were mean to Hilter to attack him.

Point is in the end we are ALL with sin. You can look and you will not find a person who is innocent. We have had since Adam to be innocent and not one person has been that way.

With one exception of course

 

[Ladewig]

Pharaoh was a hard case, if his heart was hardened it was Pharaohs doing to begin with. God only gave him what he wanted.

Jesus said if you accept Him trusting like the children, those with a child like heart (unlike Pharaohs). Jesus had the child bring the loaves and fishes made the child important.

I know I am going to regret this

Leaving aside Pharaoh, let's talk about the others killed during the passover.

12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
12:30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.

Killing the firstborn of EVERY Egyptian is just? Aren't the babies of people who have no control over whether the Jews stayed or went innocent? Even if you reply that such genocidal infantcide was necessary for God's plan to proceed, couldn't He have raised them all from the dead after the Jews had a good head start?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Re: Ooooo... Oooo... Can I answer? Please???

We cannot begin to understand God and his reasoning, because it is beyond our abilities - but the lives of the children who passed away in the flood would surely have been much worse had God not created the flood and taken them into heaven.

It occurred to me that some fundamentalists use the opposite of this reasoning when it comes to abortion. i.e. " Every fetus has the right to be brought to term, then be raised unloved, in misery and squallor.. "

 

[pgwenthold]

And then there are the Amalekites, whom God ordered killed because their ancestors 700 years before had stood up to the Israelites.

Now, you can claim all you want about how they were not truly innocent, but it doesn't matter. The bible didn't say they were attacked because were sinners. It explicitly states that they were attacked because of how their ancestors had resisted the advance of the Israelites.

They may have been lying, cheating, raping murderers as far as we know, but that is NOT why God had the whole nation wiped out (including the babies).

That leads to another problem: fair and equitable application. God wipes out the Amalekites who were minding their own business but had the misfortune of being descendents of people the Israelites hated, whereas Adolph Hitler shows up ordering the destruction of millions and God is massively silent. So much for a just God...

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Ooops.. Just noticed Belle addressed this...

 

[pgwenthold]

Uhh, just a minute.. If I remember correctly it was God who hardened Pharoahs heart... ?

In fact, ISTR that the bible explicitly states that the Pharoah was going to let them go free, but then God hardened his heart.

 

[farmermike]

Babies, those whom have never heard of God, perhaps the mentaly handicapped are innocent.

Now with them off the list, who is innocent that has existed in history.

Mike
Where is that line between a child and an adult,what about people with mental disorders,violent upbringings etc..?I'll bet the Taliban didn't deal with too many grey areas.

 

[Ossai]

elliotfc

He already knows what we will do because his knowledge of what we do is contingent on the choices that we will freely make. God is outside of time and to him all points in time are as one. He allows free choice, and because he is God he is aware of the results of our free choices at all times.

You’ve just claim that god is omni- and not-omni-.
God’s knowledge relies on people.
God already knows.

Since we have original sin, nobody is innocent.

So you believe it’s just to punish one person for the sins of another.

If you have this idea that certain special *innocent* people are above suffering or "above the wrath of God" (I'm guessing you have OT examples in mind) I disagree with you.

Actually the person, that I can think of off hand, in the OT that is called innocent is Job.

I think that some OT God attributions are unfortunate, and as a Christian I don't see Jesus doing such a thing.

Yet at the beginning of your post you go to great lengths to explain away how the OT god is not different than Jesus.
Ex:

See, God can be described. He can be described in many ways. Different people describe him in different ways. You yourself demonstrate this by adding sadistic, et al.

And in previous posts you forcefully pointed out that Jesus is God.

Bluess

I cannot understand why you choose to believe in a deity who tortured his son in your place.

Don’t forget that according to some (as professed by Catholics) Christian sects, Jesus is God. So god sacrificed god to god so god could ‘forgive’ people for god condemning them to god’s punishment.

Kitty Chan

babies, those whom have never heard of God, perhaps the mentaly handicapped are innocent.

Now with them off the list, who is innocent that has existed in history.

According to the bible Job.
But what does it matter if they’re innocent? Un-baptized babies went straight to hell according to Christian doctrine, at least for the first few centuries.

Ossai

 

[bluess]

So far, neither Karen, Elliotfc - heck, not even kittyChan - have tried to answer my question.

Why do you believe in this god?

What purpose does it serve you?

 

[Belle]

So far, neither Karen, Elliotfc - heck, not even kittyChan - have tried to answer my question.

Why do you believe in this god?

What purpose does it serve you?

Hmmm... between "a question for theists" and "a question for christians" I'm not sure WHAT page I'm on... but I now know I'm not alone - even though I live in the great land of Churches and Cheeseheads...

Well bluess, I sincerely doubt you'll get an answer that's not filled with side-stepping and bible quotes... but then we both know that, don't we? And we also both know the answers...

THIS god is believed in because either no one responding here grew up in a strong Allah community, or this particular god was the one represented by the evangelicals who showed up at just the right life-crisis time.

What Purpose?
It satisfies their insecurity by providing them with a life purpose greater than any - except for others who believe the same.

People who don't agree with them can now go to hell.

They no longer have to do anything on their own - from makeing decisions to driving cars - god is their co-pilot. Consequently, everything they do now has justification THEY no longer have to provide (case in point - BUSHY BOY)

Being born-again is a high (more attributed to their god than the actual brain chemicals involved).

Their ego no longer suffers - they are now special in the eyes of a being so magnificient, that our opinion no longer counts.

 

[bluess]

Thanks, Belle.

I shall resign myself to just staring in confusion henceforth.

This is all the more confusing for me because I was raised in a non-practicing Hindu household. The stuff that works on these folks doesn't even begin to make sense to me emotionally, let alone rationally.

Now, if they brought up reincarnation!