Another sincere question for theists...

[Atlas]

Well in Matthew 22:37-39 Jesus summed up the commandments with 'Love God' etc and 'love your neighbour as yourself' so a child disobeying a parent to avoid personal harm would not be going against these commandments. Why such rigid categorisations? These commandments are guidelines.

Is it really just a Hebrew translation problem?

The 10 Guidelines.

It's softer. I like it.

 

[farmermike]

IHADADREAM

Why don't you give us your version.

...of original sin
Karen
"We all like sheep have gone astray..."
"There is no one righteous..."

Not Sure this is relevant but here goes anyway. I had a dream a few years back, when I was struggling with God's authority over me. After reading a particular Bible verse I felt really convicted of sin-uncomfortable/disturbed. Quickly I checked my study notes at the bottom of the page and much to my relief the offending passage was explained away.
Question: Was I better off feeling the weight of my transgressions, leading to repentance and "life abundant" or lulled into a false sense of security?
I would argue that God is less concerned with my comfort zone than my eternal destiny.
C.S. Lewis Suprised By Joy "You must picture me alone in that room at Magdalen, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England.
I did not then see what is now the most shining and obvious thing; the Divine humility which will accept a convert even on such terms. The Prodigal Son at least walked home on his own feet. But who can duly adore that Love which will open the high gates to a prodigal who is brought in kicking, struggling, resentful and darting his eyes in every direction for a chance of escape? The words compelle intrare, compel them to come in, have been so abused by wicked men that we shudder at them; but, properly understood, they plumb the depth of the Divine mercy. The hardness of God is kinder than the softness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation."
Matthew 11:29-30 "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

 

[bluess]

Karen,

I don't think you have yet addressed the basic question.

Your god allows you to be born tainted with 'sin' based on something done by his two first creations. He then says you will be cast into hell eternally because he allowed you to be born with the sin which you did not do. He then says if you bow to his greatness, he won't throw you into eternal damnation.

Please tell me how this demonstrates your god's love.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Re: IHADADREAM

...of original sin
Karen
"We all like sheep have gone astray..."
"There is no one righteous..."

I thought original sin had to do with ' the fall ' ?

Your example points out that we all make mistakes.

Do you agree that we shouldn't be judged for the mistakes of others?

Do you think we should be judged for our mistakes, or for not acknowledging them?

Does it matter how many mistakes we make as long as we ask forgiveness?

 

[farmermike]

Re: Re: second verse same as the first

I don't know how on Earth you interpreted this as a personal attack, but it really isn't.
**********************
oops!
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By the "problem of evil" I mean the question that this thread was addressing: how can a supposedly loving, omnipresent, all-powerful God coexist with evil and suffering? If someone was suffering, and you or I were around, and had the power to alleviate their suffering, we would. That's just common decency. God is in that position with repect to everyone who's suffering all the time, but seems content to let Nature take its cause. But worse than that, if everything (but for our free will) is under his dominion, then he appears to be not just passively but actively wicked. This is why I am not a theist --- since some of God's supposed attributes (omnipotence, omnipresence, existence) contradict others of his supposed attributes (love, compassion, justice, mercy).

****************************
Dorothy Sayers Creed or Chaos?
"For whatever reason God chose to make man as he is-limited and suffering and subject to sorrows and death-He had the honesty and the courage to take his own medicine. Whatever game He is playing with His creation, He has kept His own rules and played fair. He can exact nothing from man that He has not exacted from Himself. He has Himself gone through the whole of human experience, from the trivial irritations of of family life and the cramping restrictions of hard work and lack of money to the worst horrors of pain and humiliation, defeat, despair and death. When He was a man, He played the man. He was born in poverty and died in disgrace and thought it well worthwhile."

Hebrews 4:15 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with out weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are..."

 

[bluess]

Re: Re: Re: second verse same as the first

****************************
Dorothy Sayers Creed or Chaos?
"For whatever reason God chose to make man as he is-limited and suffering and subject to sorrows and death-He had the honesty and the courage to take his own medicine. Whatever game He is playing with His creation, He has kept His own rules and played fair. He can exact nothing from man that He has not exacted from Himself. He has Himself gone through the whole of human experience, from the trivial irritations of of family life and the cramping restrictions of hard work and lack of money to the worst horrors of pain and humiliation, defeat, despair and death. When He was a man, He played the man. He was born in poverty and died in disgrace and thought it well worthwhile."

Hebrews 4:15 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with out weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are..."

So this is a game set up with some really UGLY rules, and because your god played his own game by his rules (oops, except for the eternal torment thing), he loves you?

Nope, you're just another piece on the game board. Screw up and your MELTED for being a bad piece of plastic.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Re: Re: Re: second verse same as the first

****************************
Dorothy Sayers Creed or Chaos?
"For whatever reason God chose to make man as he is-limited and suffering and subject to sorrows and death-He had the honesty and the courage to take his own medicine. Whatever game He is playing with His creation, He has kept His own rules and played fair. He can exact nothing from man that He has not exacted from Himself. He has Himself gone through the whole of human experience, from the trivial irritations of of family life and the cramping restrictions of hard work and lack of money to the worst horrors of pain and humiliation, defeat, despair and death. When He was a man, He played the man. He was born in poverty and died in disgrace and thought it well worthwhile."

Hebrews 4:15 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with out weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are..."

Where is the sacrifice if nothing is lost?

If Jesus had went to hell and stayed there, you might have a point...

 

[Mr Clingford]

Is it really just a Hebrew translation problem?

The 10 Guidelines.

It's softer. I like it.

Perhaps you misunderstood me; I wasn't talking about translation but the summation by Jesus works as principles through flexibility because I think that life is generally too complex to be easily categorised with rigid rules

 

[Ossai]

Mr Clingford

pgwenthold

wrote

Moreover, some sins are apparently evil just by existing even though the outcome is desired by the people involved. Homosexuality, for example, or masturbation, if you want to avoid interpersonal relationships.

So if it doesn’t harm anyone else and the outcome is desired is an action a sin?

Farmermike – Karen

After reading a particular Bible verse I felt really convicted of sin-uncomfortable/disturbed. Quickly I checked my study notes at the bottom of the page and much to my relief the offending passage was explained away.

how was it ‘explained away’? Was the explanation in contradiction to the actual text or an out of context quote from some other portion of the book?

You keep quoting C.S. Lewis as if he does anything besides beg the question.

Ossai

 

[Mr Clingford]

So if it doesn’t harm anyone else and the outcome is desired is an action a sin?

Ossai

Well I don't think homosexuality or masturbation by definition are sinful and therefore harmful

 

[Atlas]

Perhaps you misunderstood me; I wasn't talking about translation but the summation by Jesus works as principles through flexibility because I think that life is generally too complex to be easily categorised with rigid rules

Ok, I thought you were referring to the 10 commandments not the 2 important ones Jesus mentions. I can see how a softer word like guideline comes to mind. After all, it's about love and it doesn't give any real direction in daily matters except to act out of love.

I think you're kind of a heretic. I mean that in a good way. Most people don't know what they believe - or rather the implications of what they believe. You stay fairly focused on the side of light and eschew the appeals to punish others for not believing the truth that many hold close.

Anyway, I think people get to a place where realize that notions of hell and satan are anchors holding them back. They are useful to the business of saving souls but personal salvation is found by inclining to the light. It's a posture not an act. Likewise, soon enough the Bible and the church and it's dogma are found to be anchors as well and reliance on those two simple philosophical concepts, the 2 important commandments, is really all a person on the path needs. Soon the mask of God falls and new truths are revealed. But a little clear eyed heresy is important in claiming your salvation as your own. One must rely on the counselor, that holy spirit, more than on the preacher in the pulpit.

 

[Mr Clingford]

...I think you're kind of a heretic. I mean that in a good way. Most people don't know what they believe - or rather the implications of what they believe. You stay fairly focused on the side of light and eschew the appeals to punish others for not believing the truth that many hold close.

I am a bit ignorant about what may consitute heresy so I would need you to explicate how I may be heretical but I don't think I am - perhaps I am just interpreting Christian notions in a different way to the fundamentalists. My thinking has been influenced by intelligent Christian apologists (such as Keith Ward who was Regius Professor of Divinity at Oxford until recently) and I was heartened to meet the Bishop of Leicester because he was talking in a similar non-fundamentalist way. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, is also very intelligent and non-fundamentalist. I find this heartening because the fundamentalists are very vocal, drowning out more measured opinions (the media doesn't want measured opinions either - they are not 'in your face' and are not short enough to make a headline, unlike the appalling 'God Hates Fags' - just shut up!).

Anyway, I think people get to a place where realize that notions of hell and satan are anchors holding them back. They are useful to the business of saving souls

They are certainly successful in bringing someone to a conversion moment, but that is not necessarily a good thing. I see salvation not as a moment (although there may be a time of realisation of one's sinfulness, meaning I get things wrong and harm myself, others and therefore God, and turning to God) but as an ongoing process

but personal salvation is found by inclining to the light. It's a posture not an act.

But perhaps that is what you mean here

Likewise, soon enough the Bible and the church and it's dogma are found to be anchors as well and reliance on those two simple philosophical concepts, the 2 important commandments, is really all a person on the path needs. Soon the mask of God falls and new truths are revealed. But a little clear eyed heresy is important in claiming your salvation as your own. One must rely on the counselor, that holy spirit, more than on the preacher in the pulpit.

The Bible, the church and dogma can indeed hinder and I have found many things to be 'anchors' yet by exploring the diversity of Christian approaches (including attending the Quakers for a time) I have found alternatives to fundamentalism that don't abandon the idea of a creator loving God either.
Also, what do you mean by 'relying on the Holy Spirit', as that is Christian phrasing?

PS You say some interesting and intriguing things, Atlas, and I don't get a feeling of anger from you either.

 

[farmermike]

Where is the sacrifice if nothing is lost?

If Jesus had went to hell and stayed there, you might have a point...

*************************
Karen
If he'd gone to Hell and stayed there, we wouldn't have a point.

"And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead...And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins...If only for this life we have hope in Chirst, we are to be pitied more than all men." 1Corinthians 15:14-15,19

Before you trumpet where's the sacrifice, ask yourself how you'd like to become an ant? Since God loves us, I suppose the continuing pain, is in our rejection of that love.
********************
Ossai
It was a dream and just one of your run of the mill, "My way or the Highway" type verses that grate on us. My natural preference was to build a bypass. Once I accepted that God was the map maker, and that He had good reason for warning against detours, I had less trouble with his directions.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by farmermike And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. [/B]

There you go..

 

[Belle]

Having fun running around in circles?

Karen will never answer your questions, because she can't - she works on a different level of logic from the rest of you.

Call it self-delusion, it matters little... but Christian Fundamentalists (where my LONG reading of this thread appears to place Karen) use the Bible as their basis for everything, and anything can be justified with enough righteous manipulation.

There is no arguement that cannot be answered, and no logical train of thought that cannot be maneuvered by a Fundamentalist - and I perfer to study these manipulations rather than to argue them.

In that vein Karen, I put to you the following question(s) - which I've also put to others like you... simply for my own curiosity in how you explain this - and nothing else.

+++++++
Christian Facts: God is without sin. He knows the future, and knows what we will do even before we do it...

So... provided that the God of the New Testament is also the God of the Old Testament, how can he be described as jealous and quick to anger (I would personally add sadistic, insecure, unreasonable, vengeful, unjust and unforgiving) when those traits are faults? Why does he always choose to subject his believers to physically and emotionally painful "tests" us when he already knows what they will do? Why does he so often take his anger out on the innocent? Why is this "just" God condemning 10 generations following the product of either an adulterous union or an interracial union (the translation is in dispute as to which this is) to hell?
++++++++

BTW, my experience is like that of your husband - WAS there... can't even come close now and don't want to.

 

[farmermike]

Re: Having fun running around in circles?

Karen will never answer your questions, because she can't - she works on a different level of logic from the rest of you.

Call it self-delusion, it matters little... but Christian Fundamentalists (where my LONG reading of this thread appears to place Karen) use the Bible as their basis for everything, and anything can be justified with enough righteous manipulation.

There is no arguement that cannot be answered, and no logical train of thought that cannot be maneuvered by a Fundamentalist - and I perfer to study these manipulations rather than to argue them.

In that vein Karen, I put to you the following question(s) - which I've also put to others like you... simply for my own curiosity in how you explain this - and nothing else.

+++++++
Christian Facts: God is without sin. He knows the future, and knows what we will do even before we do it...

So... provided that the God of the New Testament is also the God of the Old Testament, how can he be described as jealous and quick to anger (I would personally add sadistic, insecure, unreasonable, vengeful, unjust and unforgiving) when those traits are faults? Why does he always choose to subject his believers to physically and emotionally painful "tests" us when he already knows what they will do? Why does he so often take his anger out on the innocent? Why is this "just" God condemning 10 generations following the product of either an adulterous union or an interracial union (the translation is in dispute as to which this is) to hell?
++++++++

BTW, my experience is like that of your husband - WAS there... can't even come close now and don't want to.

Karen
O.k. so my motivation here has not always been above reproach-evil fundamentalist that I am, but more often than not, I have tried to address the questions posed to me. Way back at the beginning I suggested that God is less interested in good publicity than laying His cards on the table. Why do I grow most spiritually through suffering? I don't know. Maybe because it has a way of dispelling the impression that I'm in control of my destiny.
So as not to disappoint, here's a little more fancy footwork(circular reasoning) for you-"We find judgment as well as love scattered very pervasively throughout the New Testament, and love and mercy as well as judgment throughout the Old Testament. God is consistent and unchanging, but different situations call for different emphases...They(two testaments) reveal the same holy God who is rich in mercy, but who will not let sin go unpunished." Josh McDowell
I too have been where you are now and would not want to go back. Though I will never have God fully figured, as "deep cries out to deep", I know He loves us and desires to communicate that love. I think I've been upfront about the fact that I don't have answers for all your questions and that if I'd invented God, he would come in a neat little package with a big red bow. He doesn't, and is infinitely more satisfying(in my estimation). Take your allegations/hurts to Him.
*Not to cast doubt on that study you have going,but "fundamentalists" are human, and as such, are subject to the same desires/temptations as yourself. Just hope you've allowed for that.
** If people really want me to shut up, please refrain from catty remarks that I will feel compelled to counter, as I have not yet reached "Nirvana".

 

[Kitty Chan]

Question Kitty curoisty . . .

It has been said many times that God is hateful, and controlling everyones lives, so Hes mean, unreasonable, insecure etc etc

God should do something about this world correct? and He does not because He is so much of those things, right?

A lot of anger towards God maybe even perhaps other feelings of frustration of lack of action, desire for justice.

Basically God is not rising to the expections, to clean up things and fix the world right and to boot He should have just made everyone tailor made to love God in the first place.

I think this is what Im reading. ? .

 

[Belle]

Question Kitty curoisty . . .

It has been said many times that God is hateful, and controlling everyones lives, so Hes mean, unreasonable, insecure etc etc

God should do something about this world correct? and He does not because He is so much of those things, right?

A lot of anger towards God maybe even perhaps other feelings of frustration of lack of action, desire for justice.

Basically God is not rising to the expections, to clean up things and fix the world right and to boot He should have just made everyone tailor made to love God in the first place.

I think this is what Im reading. ? .

IMO there is no God... but the God of the Bible - especially the OT - portrays all of those nasty traits. That is one of the reasons why I question how others can believe in such a God and state that (with all these traits and actions attributed to this God) their God is also without sin... especially if these believers consider themselves fundamentalist Christians, professing the literal and complete truth of the Bible.

I have no expectations of your God, and have never questioned why he/she has not "fixed" the world. I believe the world would be better off without believers in God - who throughout history have (in HIS name) committed countless atrocities. These were believers who considered themselves as devout - if not more so - than you.

I asked:

Christian Facts: God is without sin. He knows the future, and knows what we will do even before we do it...

So... provided that the God of the New Testament is also the God of the Old Testament, how can he be described as jealous and quick to anger (I would personally add sadistic, insecure, unreasonable, vengeful, unjust and unforgiving) when those traits are faults? Why does he always choose to subject his believers to physically and emotionally painful "tests" us when he already knows what they will do? Why does he so often take his anger out on the innocent? Why is this "just" God condemning 10 generations following the product of either an adulterous union or an interracial union (the translation is in dispute as to which this is) to hell?

Could you answer?

 

[Ossai]

farmermike

Maybe because it has a way of dispelling the impression that I'm in control of my destiny.

If you don’t control your own destiny, then how can you be responsible for reaching it? Or to put it another way why bother trying if you’re destined for heaven or why struggle when you’re destined for hell?

Kitty Chan

Basically God is not rising to the expections, to clean up things and fix the world right and to boot He should have just made everyone tailor made to love God in the first place.

I think this is what Im reading. ? .

Not quiet, at least not from me. I’ve been trying to point out the incongruities of what is in the bible vs. what people profess to believe vs. the logical inconsistencies of both and the results of each.

Ossai

 

[elliotfc]

[/B][/QUOTE]Christian Facts: God is without sin. He knows the future, and knows what we will do even before we do it...[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes.

So... provided that the God of the New Testament is also the God of the Old Testament, how can he be described as jealous and quick to anger (I would personally add sadistic, insecure, unreasonable, vengeful, unjust and unforgiving) when those traits are faults?

In Psalm 103, it says that the Lord is slow to anger.

See, God can be described. He can be described in many ways. Different people describe him in different ways. You yourself demonstrate this by adding sadistic, et al.

Faults...that's a value call, and that would depend on your personal morality (unless you believe in objective morality, which you may or may not believe in).

If your question is how...well, the answer is ridiculously easy. You and I can describe the sun in different ways. Cheeseburgers. The Magnetic Fields. You just simply describe things as you will. That's how you do it.

See, different people wrote about God in the O.T. and N.T. No two human beings who have ever existed have ever mused about God in exactly the same way. What's so hard to understand about this?

If you're hung up about the failure to have two opinions about God correspond...well, you shouldn't be. Or maybe you should be. Clearly the compilers of the Bible weren't concerned. Clearly people in the Bible had different things to say about God in different circumstances. Case in point...Jesus describes God in a variety of ways. I don't see what's the big hang up here.

There is definitely a trend in the Bible regarding God descriptors that can be followed. Certainly the theology of the Bible writers evolved over the centuries.

Why does he always choose to subject his believers to physically and emotionally painful "tests" us when he already knows what they will do?

Always physically and emotionally painful...that's a stretch, isn't it?

But I get your point. And you just have to read the account of the Crucifixion to understand that God himself subjected his son to a physically and emotionally painful test (I think trial is a better word, but that's a minor quibble).

He already knows what we will do because his knowledge of what we do is contingent on the choices that we will freely make. God is outside of time and to him all points in time are as one. He allows free choice, and because he is God he is aware of the results of our free choices at all times.

Why does he so often take his anger out on the innocent?

Since we have original sin, nobody is innocent.

If you have this idea that certain special *innocent* people are above suffering or "above the wrath of God" (I'm guessing you have OT examples in mind) I disagree with you.

Why is this "just" God condemning 10 generations following the product of either an adulterous union or an interracial union (the translation is in dispute as to which this is) to hell?

I think that some OT God attributions are unfortunate, and as a Christian I don't see Jesus doing such a thing.

-Elliot