Another Saddam Lover Criticizes the Pentagon

With the exception of only 50% of the posts, this is a great thread.

50% on such a politically charged topic is a great, great, percentage.

I commend Zig, once again, for staying perfectly on topic and expressing his views apolitically and with exacting detail.

Bravo-zulu
 
I don't really think the General loves Saddam, I have always displayed nothing but respect for our military. But plenty here are all to happy to paint those who disagree with the administration or the war effort as supporters of Saddam and/or the terrorists.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/13/iraq.rumsfeld/index.html

The spin starts now.
You want spin? Head on over to Freeperville. But if you can't stomach a full dose, here's a sample:

Are these generals hold overs from the Kinton regime and have some sort of axe to grind? What general worth his salt dosen't think that he knows better than the next guy up the chain of command? If they had the balls, why did they not speak up when they were on active duty?
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Most I believe are holdouts from the Klintonista days. These are the new Wesly Clarks and the left are going to do their best to make hay with them. Just like Cindy *****-han they will be discarded once they have outlived their usefullness to the MSM. They now have book deals and speaking engagements to promote and are saying what the MSM want to hear so they can promote them. These clowns don't have the balls, obviously, because they waited until they retired to guarantee their pensions before they opened their pieholes.
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Not all generals are great military men....just good pentagon politicians.... 5 generals out of several hundred retired generals/admirals is hardly an issue....This is much ado about nothing except that the liberal media wants so deperately to have the military agree with their anti-war stance they'll grab at a few malcontentents as validation of their misguided and innapropriate stance.....It's laughable at best....
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These generals just spit on our troops in the field; if they thought this, they should have resigned and spoken out then, not wait for full retirement,and the benefits that go along with them. These retired generals get no respect from this citizen.
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When an active duty commander speaks out, I will listen. Accusing the Sec Def of "swagger" sounds like a dem talking point rather than a credible charge of incompetence.
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Oh, gee. What do six generals out of thousands know about war? Let's ask the liberals in the drive-by media who've fabricated this little exercise, shall we?
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What it sounds like to me is, someone didn't like being passed over for that extra star.
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Hey, Rummy ain't perfect, but I'll take him over any of these lame-brained generals who retire then criticize. Time to lay it on the line is when you are THERE, not later after you QUIT because you didn't get it the way you wanted it. I'm glad Rummy ran off these losers, and I hope he can find a way to make 'em pay. He should recall them to active duty and put them in charge of cleaning the ladies' latrines or something, then they would have a reason to bit**. Other than that, STFU losers!!
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Sorry but when Casey, Franks and dozens of other Generals say these guys are full of crap, kind of obvious this is a staged PR stunt, not a serious commentary. Sorry but you Neo Isolationists simply need to grow up. Your world view failed us and lead to 9-11
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One wonders how much you need to offer a general, to get him to do something unethical. How big was the bribe Zinni?
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I find it amazing that these general's - who got their stars under Clinton - and failed to resign while implementing Clinton's "blow up the aspirin factory's" foreign policy have such credibility now that they have turned against President Bush.
 
"Appear" is the key word here. I have an active distrust in what the media makes things "appear" as.
Yes, I chose the word "appear" intentionally to indicate that it was not hard fact, but an opinion. And of course, it is possible that Rumsfeld is one of those rare but storied folks who are brilliant but go against the grain, though I do not see any evidence of his brilliance. And it might be worth noting that Patton, Jackon and Lee who you mentioned earlier were military leaders, not civilian leaders who directed strategy. Jackson was in fact killed while leading his troops.


But let me offer a counterpoint perspective to some of this criticism from someone who has a lot more military experience than I do:
http://iraqnow.blogspot.com/2006/03/...lling-for.html
You distrust mainstream media but you trust blogs? My impression was that it was a very partisan rant, especially when it includes statements like:
General Shinseki might as well have been on crack.
That sort of thing tends to make one skeptical about the objectivity of the writer.

I know that it would be incumbant upon me to go research some of the things said in that piece, but in all honesty, that is more work than I consider this topic worth. I did try to give you info as best I could find about the specifics of the generals' complaints.

BTW, I concur with Rob that you have been a model poster here, and I thank you for that.
 
You distrust mainstream media but you trust blogs?

For the most part, they aren't in the same game. When it comes to being a primary source (as in, the originator of information), I don't actually trust blogs any more than the media (though I will note that blogs often do a better job at policing each other than the media does, and are much more open about correcting themselves).

What I primarily find useful from blogs is analysis, and there it's not a matter of any difference in trust (because most of the information bloggers rely on comes from the media), it's a matter of the quality of that analysis, based on how well I think they're reasoned. That I think can be judged independently of the source. And yes, I do find a number of bloggers consistently better than the media at this kind of analysis.

My impression was that it was a very partisan rant, especially when it includes statements like:That sort of thing tends to make one skeptical about the objectivity of the writer.

Yes, he's not objective. But I still think he's right: where could that 400,000 number have come from, and how long could we possibly support such large numbers deployed? There are complaints about the roughly 130,000 soldiers deployed stretching the army to the breaking point (keep in mind that because of troop rotations, maintaining this number involves about three times this many troops when you count those preparing to rotate in and those recently rotated out). So tripling this number in terms of actual deployed troops means that once it's time for them to come home, you need to draw on some reserve which we didn't even need to tap into for our current deployment in order to replace this larger number, and I just don't see how that's possible. And I don't see anyone who has put forward an argument about how it could have been done, either, even though that would lend a whole lot of weight to the "more troops" argument.

There's another possibility which wasn't mentioned in that argument but which comes to my mind if you accept that deploying 400,000 troops was never possible. That is: if a general doesn't want to invade Iraq, one of the easiest ways to oppose it is to say that it requires more resources than we have available. Sort of an "it's impossible" response because saying "I don't think we should" isn't that effective when you're not in charge. If your superiors believe you, you get your way without contradicting them. I've seen the argument made that generals didn't feel free to request more troops because of political pressure, and Shinseki's numbers are used as evidence of this. But the reverse is also possible: the high numbers might have been deliberately inflated in order to try to apply pressure in the opposite direction. I do not know of any way to differentiate these possibilities from the outside, though, so the question of what we needed, what we could have done differently with more troops, and what was available are ultimately more important.

BTW, I concur with Rob that you have been a model poster here, and I thank you for that.

Well, I've been in pretty good form here - but I can get pretty snippy on occasion. :blush:
 
And to consider that I was laughed at for suggesting that many of the senior officers in Iraq are maintaining their silence because they're worried about their pensions. If they're not, WHY are they waiting until they're no longer soldiers or civil servants?.

I keep seeing references (in posts and in linked articles) to the generals fear of "losing their pensions". Exactly how do people think their pensions would be threatened?

(In the last 30-40 years I'm not aware any general who's become a general without serving at least 20 years. At that point their pension is generally secure barring conviction of various crimes.)
 
Rumsfeld sits in Washington and dictates policy and tells the generals what they can and can't have. It is not an unlimited budget and Washington takes a lot of heat any time it increases military spending these days.

So some RETIRED generals don't like the way Rumsfeld is handling things eh? The general this story is about was in charge in Iraq for a while. Does this general deserve any of the credit for the way things have gone?

I wonder if in the future any retired soldiers will be on the news talking aout how badly the generals ran things? Don't hold your breath, I don't think it fits in with the mainstream media's POV.

I don't think that by any measure Rumsfeld has done a perfect job, but the only real comparison I can come up with is McNamara. It's been that long since we have had a full scale war with ground troops in a prolonged occupation.

Since the Vietnam war was over, this is what retired generals do in any conflict is get their faces some air time on NBC or CNN criticizing the current administration's handling of the conflict. Do they get paid for this? Maybe not directly, but I'll bet there is compensation. I will also wager that the big bucks are in criticising whatever current administration exists, especially if it happens to be a Republican one.
 
For the most part, they aren't in the same game. When it comes to being a primary source (as in, the originator of information), I don't actually trust blogs any more than the media (though I will note that blogs often do a better job at policing each other than the media does, and are much more open about correcting themselves).
LOL. I suppose it depends on which ones you read. I don't read any blogs (except Dave Barry's) because they are so unpoliced. They are under no obligation to include contrary opinions.

What I primarily find useful from blogs is analysis, and there it's not a matter of any difference in trust (because most of the information bloggers rely on comes from the media), it's a matter of the quality of that analysis, based on how well I think they're reasoned. That I think can be judged independently of the source. And yes, I do find a number of bloggers consistently better than the media at this kind of analysis.
Mayhaps. They are freed from the constraints that many paid columnists work under. Whether this makes them better or just freer, I would say depends on the individual.

But I must state one thing about myself and other anti-Rumsfeld folks on this thread. For a large part, we don't agree with these generals who are criticizing Rumsfeld, we are just cackling with glee when anybody attacks the Bush administration. Of course I am partisan. I know it. But if you read what many of these generals are saying, their complaint is that we were not greater warmongers. That we didn't attack with even more superior force and grind the country into rubble. From the beginning, I have opposed this war and it is a tad hypocritical on my part to get in bed with someone who was very much for the war, only moreso.

Of course, not all of the generals criticizing Rumsfeld are saying this. Some are saying we shouldn't have gone. This is not a solid block of opinions, but only opinions which converge only on one specific thing about one specific person.

Yes, he's not objective. But I still think he's right: where could that 400,000 number have come from, and how long could we possibly support such large numbers deployed? There are complaints about the roughly 130,000 soldiers deployed stretching the army to the breaking point (keep in mind that because of troop rotations, maintaining this number involves about three times this many troops when you count those preparing to rotate in and those recently rotated out). So tripling this number in terms of actual deployed troops means that once it's time for them to come home, you need to draw on some reserve which we didn't even need to tap into for our current deployment in order to replace this larger number, and I just don't see how that's possible. And I don't see anyone who has put forward an argument about how it could have been done, either, even though that would lend a whole lot of weight to the "more troops" argument.
I'm not sure about that. I do know that we did not have enough troops deployed there to handle basic lawkeeping functions after the invasion. I cannot say if more troops would have made a difference. It would depend on how they were deployed.

It all comes back to the inescapable conclusion that, whether because of insufficent forces or poor planning, this war was a mistake. The persons most responsible for that mistake should resign.

Well, I've been in pretty good form here - but I can get pretty snippy on occasion. :blush:
Who knows that better than I? That is why I throw you a bone when you are a good dog. :p

But I am prone to the same sorts of behavior. It is hard sometimes to sit back and evaluate your own motives. I hope I have done so above.
 
I'm not sure about that. I do know that we did not have enough troops deployed there to handle basic lawkeeping functions after the invasion. I cannot say if more troops would have made a difference. It would depend on how they were deployed.

I'm in agreement that we DIDN'T handle basic lawkeeping functions in the immediate aftermath, and that was a serious mistake. But I also know that the forces we had in place weren't used for law enforcement when they could have been (they basically ignored looters, for example), so I don't attribute this failure primarily to a numbers issue.

It all comes back to the inescapable conclusion that, whether because of insufficent forces or poor planning, this war was a mistake. The persons most responsible for that mistake should resign.

I'm not sure that is an inescapable conclusion, because I haven't reached it. That's also a different conclusion from mistakes having been made during this war, one which I do freely concede. I think the final judgment has yet to be made (and might never be made conclusively since we do not get to know what would have happened had we not invaded). We've paid a very high price for this war, but I think the potential long-term benefits of success are huge, and will have been worth it if we succeed despite mistakes which have raised the cost along the way.
 
Oops. This time it's Colin Powell. That carries a little more weight than some of the others. Of course, technically he just said he argued for more troops, but this can't make Rummy look good.

ETA:
And to add more fuel to the fire, a former CIA analyist accused Rumsfeld of lying. Interestingly this article does not include the interview with Anderson Cooper on CNN where McGovern flat out said that there were memos that said Bush knew there were no WMDs before the Iraq invasion. It just keeps getting worse and worse for Bushco.
 
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Oops. This time it's Colin Powell. That carries a little more weight than some of the others. Of course, technically he just said he argued for more troops, but this can't make Rummy look good.

From that article:
""I made the case to General (Tommy) Franks, to (Defense) Secretary (Donald) Rumsfeld and to the president that I was not sure we had enough troops," Powell said. But he said the military leaders felt they had the appropriate number."

In other words, it was other generals, and not Rumsfeld, whom Powell attributes the troop level decision to. So why is this supposed to make Rumsfeld look bad?

It also gets back to the problem with this sort of criticism, which is that it's easy to want more troops, it's much harder to figure out exactly how to do that without overstretching. Powell doesn't say he had a plan for that - he didn't have to, he wasn't part of the Pentagon anymore. But without such a plan in hand, how can you tell the difference between what Powell thought we should ideally have and what we could have done practically? We can't, really, which means his statements don't have a whole lot of significance.

And to add more fuel to the fire, a former CIA analyist accused Rumsfeld of lying. Interestingly this article does not include the interview with Anderson Cooper on CNN where McGovern flat out said that there were memos that said Bush knew there were no WMDs before the Iraq invasion. It just keeps getting worse and worse for Bushco.

Does it? Seems like they're just recycling criticisms and calling them new.

McGovern has been on Bush's case for a long time. Here's an interview he gave a while ago, back in Feb. 2004:
http://www.nathancallahan.com/mcgovern.html
Here's what he had to say about Tenet's career prospects:

"I think that Tenet will be around at least through the election," McGovern says. "There are two reasons for this. They're the same two reasons that kept him around after September 11, 2001."

Tenet left the CIA before the election, so McGovern's prediction was off. Only one prediction, no big deal if it was wrong, right? Well, let's look at WHY he made that prediction:

“George Tenet no doubt has a little computer disc with the 27 or so warnings that he gave the president starting in spring and going right up until September 2001," says McGovern. "The president and his advisors in the White House, knowing this, didn’t dismiss Tenet after 911 because it was too much of a risk. Were they to have dismissed Tenet on September 12, they could not have been sure that he wouldn’t have said, ‘Wait a second. Let me print off some of these warnings. Let me show you what I told the president in the president’s daily brief on August 6, 2001.’ So that’s reason number one."

But we HAVE seen most of the PDB from August 6, 2001, and it was released by the whitehouse only two months after McGovern's interview. And it wasn't really very damning at all: it had warnings, but nothing actionable. It was not the smoking gun Bush critics had expected. So he's basically convinced himself of a conspiracy that now appears to have not existed. So why should we trust him about his current claims that there are documents proving that Bush lied? Seems more likely to me that McGovern is engaging in wishful thinking, believing that documents he hasn't seen MUST contain certain information because that's how he believes the world works.

And how does McGovern think the world works? Well, that too is a warning bell for me:

"And I would simply add, not as an afterthought, but as a core part of this whole calculus, that this war was fought as much for Israeli strategic objectives as it was for American strategic objectives. As a matter of fact, the people running our policy toward Iraq have great difficulty distinguishing between the two."
As McGovern is speaking, I notice a slight rise in the pitch of his voice — an almost imperceptible quarter step jump.
“If I’m sounding a little angry here,” he says, “there’s no word to describe it."
There's a silence.

Yeah, I bet there's silence. McGovern exposed himself as a loon, and the interviewer doesn't quite know what to make of it. He's accusing people in government of being traitors basically because they're Jewish.

And he keeps digging:

“I don’t call them neo-conservatives," he says, "because I’m conservative. I call them neo-fascists, because that’s what they are. And what these neo-fascists did was see 911 as a golden opportunity.”
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McGovern draws a parallel between 911 and the Reichstag fire. After claiming that the Communists committed arson, Hitler used the incident to declare a state of emergency and suspend some of the constitutionally protected personal freedoms of German citizens. These rights included freedom of speech and assembly.

And now, for one final example of McGovern's fuzzy thinking, and inability to separate his own political feelings from actual rational thought:

"It’s really remarkable," McGovern says. "People like Donald Rumsfeld are intelligent and it’s embarrassing how they scratch their heads and they say ‘I don’t know what makes a suicide bomber. I don’t know what makes people do that.’
“Well, if he watched Al Jazeera for a couple of nights. If he watched Israeli bulldozers knocking down Palestinians homes and he saw Israelis shooting up Palestinians in the occupied territories, then maybe he would get some sense as to why people of Palestinian or Arab or Islamic heritage – why they might look askance at the one country that they know makes this all possible. That’s the United States of America.”

But that's actually two separate questions. Suicide bombing is a peculiar institution, and nothing that McGovern cites in any way illuminates why anyone does it. He can't understand that why they target us is a different question from why they are willing to blow themselves up in the first place, and has convinced himself that the answer to the second question somehow answers the first one too. But it doesn't, and never has. Whatever McGovern's area of expertise is, it sure as hell isn't Islamic terrorism.

So back to your original point: is it really getting worse and worse for Bushco? Maybe. Public relations is a funny business, and I don't really know how well these accusations will stick. What I DO know, though, is that McGovern isn't a critic I would rely upon for anything approaching balanced or even rational criticism, and that the press is attaching themselves to what he says because they like his message and think they can pass him off as believable, not because of any inherent truth or credibility he has. Hell, I doubt they care.
 

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