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Another Mall Shooting

The main purpose of a handgun is to shoot people. The fact that people don't generally shoot one another doesn't change the main purpose of handguns. .....The fact that most handgun owners don't shoot someone else doesn't mean that the purpose of a handgun changes.

Who decides what the main purpose of a handgun is? Where is your evidence that the main purpose of a handgun is to shoot people? If a manufacturer makes a handgun, and no one ever uses it to shoot a person how can you say it is meant to be used on people?

Ranb
 
Maybe you should try addressing the position honestly, instead of misrepresenting it? Just for a change of pace? Maybe as an expression of holiday spirit?:D

How am I misrepresenting my position?

Ranb
 
As I thought you cannot prove that most hand gun owners use them for sport or hunting. And this is the devastating type of argument you used on other "silly" people?

I would like to know more about why you think handguns do not seem to have a sporting application. You like to ask for proof, but I know you do not have any. So I would also like to know why you are so ignorant about the sporting use of handguns in the USA.

Where is the evidence that the main (or exclusive as you claimed) use for handguns is to shoot people?

Ranb
 
Lonewulf,

I think it would depend on how absurd the violence is and the context it is presented in. I used Hollywood as an example, but I think RPG’s could probably come under a similar taxation scheme. I’m not familiar with the comic books you mentioned. A college student's violent short story is unlikely to be marketed to a huge audience, or the content easily confused with socially acceptable behaviour.
Ah, so you would attempt to try to ruin my favorite RPG of all time, Shadowrun, because it doesn't appeal to your tastes. And because you assume that the content will "easily be confused with socially acceptable behavior", even though you just admitted earlier that there was no definitive proof of such a thing. Go figure.

If your tax scheme ever actually occurred, I would encourage students from across the world to write the most violent stories that they can, and distribute them as much as they can to as many people as they can. It would be great! As for the comic, read up on Penny Arcade.

They have plenty of articles in that website that tends to shoot down the ignorant points of people like you. And it's not actually run by the EEEEVIL "mass media"... yet millions of people read it every day.

Funny that, huh? Yet in your world, the only people that could possible spread entertainment are all rich, aren't they? You did, after all, claim that the rich people "controlled" the media.

I was particularly interested in one of your replies:

Many parents don’t seem to be particularly bothered about their children’s viewing or other pastimes. How do you propose to make parents accept this job?
I don't. And neither does the government.

You're essentially saying that you want to control people "FOR THE CHILDREN!"... notably, you want to control what they are exposed to, by trying to work out products that you don't like, which affects more than just children. You're essentially telling me what I can't/shouldn't see, what I can't/shouldn't read, and what I can't/shouldn't play. In which case, I have nothing but contempt for you.

You don't like what I watch, what I read? Then don't read it, don't watch it. And if you want to pretend that you're doing it over some simple-minded moralistic philosophy based around the supposed "fact" that this fiction makes people violent... then you better have some definitive scientific evidence, and not just your rampant and inane speculation.

And even then, I draw a line at controlling the media to try to get everyone to act just like what you want to do. Because, see, I do believe that people should be able to watch, read, and expose themselves to whatever they wish. Period.

Self-righteous holier-than-thou people like you always talk about "THINKING ABOUT THE CHILDREN!", but you just want to arbitrarily control people. That's how it's always been.

BTW, you’re on your last chance. Be aggressive and rude to me again and I’ll stop responding to you until you calm down.
You act like that's actually a threat.

You really think that people care to listen to what you say so much that that's such a threat? :D

That's the funniest thing I've ever seen. Buddy, I don't like your company that much. In fact, I care for it not at all.

And by the way, "calm down"? What makes you think I'm not actually calm? I'm perfectly calm. I just talk to your kind like your kind deserves to be talked to. And that's certainly not with respect.
 
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Nice, Joe Ellison.

You come up with that strawman on your own?

So what, exactly, are these "sensible gun controls" and "responsible gun ownership" that you're talking about here? Does "Responsible Gun Ownership" involve actually respecting and training with the firearms you own? If not, then what is it that's so "responsible"? If so, then how are you suggesting anything that is so incredibly different from what anti-gun control advocates propose?

Can you find a single person that supports the right to own firearms that suggests that gun owners should not be responsible? Or is your definition of "responsible" and "reasonable" defined as "whatever bullspit I happen to agree with"?

Hell, though, your side is MUCH more interesting. The "OMG VIOLENCE IN MOVIES TAX THE ****ERS!" is so much more reasonable than "I am a responsible gun owner, you shouldn't punish me for the actions of a very small minority"! But if the nut's on your side, then who cares, right?
Why are you lying about "my side", when I haven't once said a goddamned thing abot taxes OR violence in movies? Is that your idea of "honest discussion", just making stuff up about people and then attacking it?
 
Absolutely agree re films, games etc. Want to limit violent media? Evidence that it leads people to commit violent acts please. Otherwise it's just an appeal to emotion and an abstract form of vigilantism.
 
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Who decides what the main purpose of a handgun is? Where is your evidence that the main purpose of a handgun is to shoot people? If a manufacturer makes a handgun, and no one ever uses it to shoot a person how can you say it is meant to be used on people?

Ranb

Your position is patently ridiculous.
 
How am I misrepresenting my position?

Ranb

It is the opposing position that you insist on misrepresenting. I don't understand why, unless it is because you aren't interested in honest discussion.
 
Why are you lying about "my side", when I haven't once said a goddamned thing abot taxes OR violence in movies? Is that your idea of "honest discussion", just making stuff up about people and then attacking it?

You've certainly done a good job of commenting on his posts.
 
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You've run head-on into that "gun nut culture" I was talking about earlier. You can talk all you want about sensible gun controls and responsible gun ownership, but all they hear is "someone wants to take my guns away!!!". It is very bizarre, and seems to be a uniquely American reaction. The guns aren't the problem, of course... it is the unhealthy emotional relationship that some people seem to have with guns that's at least part of the problem.

I don't agree with all of Joe's contribtions to this thread, but I do agree with him regarding the existance of gun nuts. One of my co-workers was one and despite having a high school education (he was very intelligent, just let me finish comment about him before you edit it down to a straw man), fancied himself quite the Constitutional scholar when it came to the 2nd Amendment. I remember him even citing to me that "the militia" was comprised of all able bodied men blah blah blah.

He was a great guy. I love firing military style firearms and wasn't happy about the assualt rifle ban. I think law-abiding citizens should be able to own, and with proper training and registration to carry firearms. But I cannot help but roll my eyes when I listen to gun nuts talk about ownership being something virtually scribed by God and brought down from Sinai by Madison himself.

One thing... as a moderate, I find interesting about some of the gun nuts on this forum (and, again, before you quote me out of context and erect a straw man), is that some of you fully support abortion, gay rights and even drug legalization, but once it comes down to your pet agenda (guns in this case), you go crazy and think that anyone who doesn't love guns is a Communist/Nazi/etc. who want's to confiscate or outlaw them.
 
You've certainly done a good job of commenting on his posts. Do you agree with them, or don't you?
What, taxing violent movies and video games? Nope. You seem to have a problem with dealing with the world as anything other than either/or choices...


So you're saying that no handgun is meant to be used in sport?
... and here's another example of that. You are setting up a false either/or situation, which is especially foolish considering how many times your fallacy has been pointed out. There are highly accurate target pistols designed specifically for high-end precision shooting... and you can also shoot a person with them, although that is not its primary purpose. In the same way, an undersized pocket handgun can be used to shoot at targets, but that isn't its primary function either.

What other purposes, besides target shooting, does a handgun have?
 
Unrepentantsinner said:
One thing... as a moderate, I find interesting about some of the gun nuts on this forum (and, again, before you quote me out of context and erect a straw man), is that some of you fully support abortion, gay rights and even drug legalization, but once it comes down to your pet agenda (guns in this case), you go crazy and think that anyone who doesn't love guns is a Communist/Nazi/etc. who want's to confiscate or outlaw them.

Legalizing drugs, legalizing abortion, and supporting gay rights somehow run contrary to someone who supports the rights to own a firearm? Wow. Guess that's another one that lives in delusional-world.

By the way, nice "communist/nazy" comment there. For someone that talks about strawmen, you're quick to erect your own.
 
JoeEllison said:
... and here's another example of that. You are setting up a false either/or situation, which is especially foolish considering how many times your fallacy has been pointed out. There are highly accurate target pistols designed specifically for high-end precision shooting... and you can also shoot a person with them, although that is not its primary purpose. In the same way, an undersized pocket handgun can be used to shoot at targets, but that isn't its primary function either.

What other purposes, besides target shooting, does a handgun have?

Ah, I'm sorry, I thought you were claiming what the primary function of a handgun was. I did not think that you were saying that handguns could also be used to shoot a person.

In which case, what about automobiles? They can be used to seriously harm another living being, and often are accidentally.
 
I don't agree with all of Joe's contribtions to this thread, but I do agree with him regarding the existance of gun nuts. One of my co-workers was one and despite having a high school education (he was very intelligent, just let me finish comment about him before you edit it down to a straw man), fancied himself quite the Constitutional scholar when it came to the 2nd Amendment. I remember him even citing to me that "the militia" was comprised of all able bodied men blah blah blah.

He was a great guy. I love firing military style firearms and wasn't happy about the assualt rifle ban. I think law-abiding citizens should be able to own, and with proper training and registration to carry firearms. But I cannot help but roll my eyes when I listen to gun nuts talk about ownership being something virtually scribed by God and brought down from Sinai by Madison himself.

One thing... as a moderate, I find interesting about some of the gun nuts on this forum (and, again, before you quote me out of context and erect a straw man), is that some of you fully support abortion, gay rights and even drug legalization, but once it comes down to your pet agenda (guns in this case), you go crazy and think that anyone who doesn't love guns is a Communist/Nazi/etc. who want's to confiscate or outlaw them.
Heck, I'm a moderate! I'm a moderate who loves shooting, and taught marksmanship. :D I'm all about people being able to own a firearm, with some very basic regulations that I think most people believe in.

It just becomes hard to talk about things in a reasonable manner when you run into people who believe, for instance, that a waiting period for a handgun is somehow one of the signs of the apocalypse.
 
Ah, I'm sorry, I thought you were claiming what the primary function of a handgun was. I did not think that you were saying that handguns could also be used to shoot a person.

In which case, what about automobiles? They can be used to seriously harm another living being, and often are accidentally.
Of course the primary purpose of a handgun is shooting people. What else is it for? I'm still waiting for your answer on that one.

And automobiles is a perfect thing to bring up, considering how much regulation is associated with owning and operating a car. If we go through all of that government control for something that isn't designed to hurt other people, why would we expect less regulation for gun, which ARE designed to hurt people?
 
I don't agree with all of Joe's contribtions to this thread, but I do agree with him regarding the existance of gun nuts. One of my co-workers was one and despite having a high school education (he was very intelligent, just let me finish comment about him before you edit it down to a straw man), fancied himself quite the Constitutional scholar when it came to the 2nd Amendment. I remember him even citing to me that "the militia" was comprised of all able bodied men blah blah blah.

He was a great guy. I love firing military style firearms and wasn't happy about the assualt rifle ban. I think law-abiding citizens should be able to own, and with proper training and registration to carry firearms. But I cannot help but roll my eyes when I listen to gun nuts talk about ownership being something virtually scribed by God and brought down from Sinai by Madison himself.

One thing... as a moderate, I find interesting about some of the gun nuts on this forum (and, again, before you quote me out of context and erect a straw man), is that some of you fully support abortion, gay rights and even drug legalization, but once it comes down to your pet agenda (guns in this case), you go crazy and think that anyone who doesn't love guns is a Communist/Nazi/etc. who want's to confiscate or outlaw them.
I think we need to get some kind of clarification and common understanding here of the term "gun nut."

JoeEllison seems to think gun nuts are people who are borderline insane, literally, as evidenced by his description of two such people he knew. At least I think that's what he thinks; I've asked him to clarify, and also to explain what he means when he says he thinks "gun nuts" should be "banned," and also if he truly thinks that "gun nuts" should not have the right to freedom of speech. But he chooses not to answer these questions. Or maybe he has me on ignore. But I think anyone who proposes actually "banning" certain classes of people, and taking away their freedom of speech, puts someone into a nut category all his own.

US seems to think "gun nut" is pretty much anyone who passionately loves his guns, the same way some people passionately love their pickup trucks , without claiming these people are necessarily any more dangerous than non-gun owners, or ascribing any mental instability to them.

So can we attempt to get a common understanding of what a "gun nut" is? And if we can't, how about dropping the term entirely for purposes of this discussion, since if I say "apple" and you understand "sneakers"...
 
What a stupid comment. But, yes, Australia has the worlds highest rate of rapes per capita.

However, more pertinent to the topic at hand, we also have one of the lowest homicide rates in the world. Couldn't have anything to do with our gun laws could it?

What is wrong with rapist being shot by citizens?
 
Some people on this thread have spoken about how "law abiding" citizens carrying weapons could "take out" a maniac shooting people in a Mall. Funny that I don't recall reading about this. Examples please, and not from the mists of time.

January 16, 2002
Appalachian School of Law shooting

When Odighizuwa exited the building where the shooting took place, he was approached by two students with personal firearms and one unarmed student.


Also, keep in mind that Virginia Tech just recently banned firearms on campus. I have many friends that kept guns in their dorm rooms whilst attending that school.
 
The problem is that the real issue cannot be discussed without being branded a racist. Fact is, the homicide rates for caucasian whites in the US is very close to the rate in Canada and the UK. If you're a minority, your chances of being a homicide victim increases greatly. In other words, caucasian whites in the US with relatively easy access to guns don't murder each other more than those countries you cite with strict gun laws. The elephant in the room is the culture of violence within many minority communities, and it is not being addressed.

I think the evidence is quite strong that it is cultural in origin, and not simply gun laws.


Drugs laws make drugs worth killing over.
 

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