Another isolated incident: cops maim toddler with flash grenade

[Information Analyst]

I get the idea that legalization would reduce the violent crime. But when I imagine a corporation getting their paws on something like meth... well, I don't trust them much either, and they are quite good at expanding markets. Enhanced Boost Energy Drink anyone?

It would be doubtful whether any legalised regime would encompass either methamphetamine or crack cocaine (by definition, "recreational" wouldn't include heroin, either). It seems to be the case generally that meth flourishes in those areas where cocaine and MDMA are less-obtainable (ditto oxycodone, for that matter), which is certainly the case in Europe - in the UK meth was virtually unheard of until fairly recently, and is still regarded as something exotically different.

 

[ravdin]

Just a few things to point out...

The police knew the meth dealers had weapons in the house. A flash grenade is a non-lethal option to incapacitate people who are known to be armed. The flash grenade was not aimed at the crib. That it landed in the crib was an accident.

The police, by their own admission, are not allowed to use flash grenades if children are in the house. They would have known that had they done a minimal amount of preparation before the raid.

Also, flash grenades are not "non-lethal", as seen in this incident. The child is now in a coma and may never wake up.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Putting pot behind a glass counter in a well lit stores means that I don't have to make sketchy buys in a Taco Bell parking lot after dark, where I will also have access to the more dangerous chemical drugs. I've been offered coke meth and LSD more than once from pre-legal marijuana vendors. Legal vendors upsell me by making me own a "sealable" opaque container.

 

[marplots]

Putting pot behind a glass counter in a well lit stores means that I don't have to make sketchy buys in a Taco Bell parking lot after dark, where I will also have access to the more dangerous chemical drugs. I've been offered coke meth and LSD more than once from pre-legal marijuana vendors. Legal vendors upsell me by making me own a "sealable" opaque container.

We don't have to look hard to see how legalized but still addictive substances play out. There are plenty of people who buy their drugs at a pharmacy and manage to get into trouble, up to and including overdose deaths.

Here's an interesting article from last December on CNN about the damage from prescription narcotics: http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/health/kentucky-overdoses/index.html

The headline (in my opinion a bit hyped) is: "Prescription Drugs 'Orphan' Children in Eastern Kentucky."

According to 2010 census data, more than 86,000 children in Kentucky are being raised by someone who is not their biological parent -- mostly grandparents -- and many here blame those fractured families on prescription drugs.

 

[BardKesnit]

Which bit of, "police did not find any drugs, cash, or guns either," didn't you understand?

I didn't read the article in the OP. I was going off another story I read about this event a few days ago. That one was clearer about something only mentioned in passing in the OP - police had reason to believe someone in the apartment was armed. (The fact he was found later without weapons is in no way conclusive.)

No they did not KNEW it, they supposed it from the "confidential informant" statement.

Again, they did not do any investigation beside what the "informant" told them.

The informant had purchased drugs at that house.

I don't know how lenient the judges there are, but warrants (especially no-knock) need to be backed up with some evidence beyond the word of one person. In other words, it's very likely the police did actually investigate.

Or they could have waited and picked this guy up when he went to the store or something, no fuss and (hopefully) no mess. But no, they had to get that meth dealer at 3am.

When it is more likely that a meth dealer will have drugs on them? At 3am in his house? Or in the middle of the day? Especially when police knew the drugs had been sold at the house.

Also, flash grenades are not "non-lethal", as seen in this incident. The child is now in a coma and may never wake up.

As opposed to live bullets?

 

[Babbylonian]

These tactics can result in injuries to innocent bystanders, but as stated by the OP, given the overall number of raids, they are exceedingly rare. The more traditional method of affecting arrests -- surveillance and a stop -- are not without risks either.

I'm sure all of that is true. The problem is that no-knock raids mean that police are initiating violence preemptively. They ought to be required to have more evidence than the word of a drug addict (who is probably cooperating to avoid prosecution for their own criminal offense) before they get permission to commit violent acts against suspects who haven't even been charged with a crime, let alone a violent one.

 

[lobosrul]

I didn't read the article in the OP. I was going off another story I read about this event a few days ago. That one was clearer about something only mentioned in passing in the OP - police had reason to believe someone in the apartment was armed. (The fact he was found later without weapons is in no way conclusive.)

How exactly is it not conclusive? Not only were no weapons or drugs found in the house, the suspect wasn't even found in the house. Call me crazy, but I expect our LEO's to at least actually make sure their suspect is in the home that they proceed to break the door down on. What if I had a family member stay with me, and they sell some drugs on my doorstep without my knowledge. Is it reasonable to barge in my house in the middle of the night after he's left? Now my life, and their lives are now in danger because no one can be bothered to do a bit of basic police work.

 

[marplots]

How exactly is it not conclusive? Not only were no weapons or drugs found in the house, the suspect wasn't even found in the house. Call me crazy, but I expect our LEO's to at least actually make sure their suspect is in the home that they proceed to break the door down on. What if I had a family member stay with me, and they sell some drugs on my doorstep without my knowledge. Is it reasonable to barge in my house in the middle of the night after he's left? Now my life, and their lives are now in danger because no one can be bothered to do a bit of basic police work.

Serving a warrant and trying to apprehend a suspect is "basic police work."

 

[lobosrul]

Serving a warrant and trying to apprehend a suspect is "basic police work."

So is making sure your suspect is there. And so is making sure there isn't a small child right next to the door before flashbanging him.

 

[lobosrul]

When it is more likely that a meth dealer will have drugs on them? At 3am in his house? Or in the middle of the day? Especially when police knew the drugs had been sold at the house.

So being absolutely sure you'll catch the drug dealer red handed trumps not killing someone, or setting a child on fire.

WTH is wrong with this world.

 

[William Parcher]

What if I had a family member stay with me, and they sell some drugs on my doorstep without my knowledge. Is it reasonable to barge in my house in the middle of the night after he's left? Now my life, and their lives are now in danger because no one can be bothered to do a bit of basic police work.

How are you less in danger if that drug-dealing family member doesn't leave your house and is inside with you and the others when the cops come?

 

[William Parcher]

There would seem to be another danger when a family member is drug dealing. Crooks come to the house to get the cash that they know is inside even if the dealer isn't there. The outcome of that event might be worse than a flash grenade.

Anyway all the dangers start when a family member decides to deal in drugs.

 

[lobosrul]

How are you less in danger if that drug-dealing family member doesn't leave your house and is inside with you and the others when the cops come?

I'm not in that case. My point was I expect the police to at least make sure said family member is there before breaking down my door. And in that case at minimum a gross violation of my rights and at worst a terrible tragedy* can be averted... by doing a little police work.

*There is no legitimate reason for someone to break down my door in the middle of the night so they will be encountering me with a large scary rifle in my hand, whether I shoot first and ask questions later is debatable.

 

[William Parcher]

*There is no legitimate reason for someone to break down my door in the middle of the night so they will be encountering me with a large scary rifle in my hand, whether I shoot first and ask questions later is debatable.

Drug dealing at the house is a legitimate reason. Boom goes the door.

All these dangers get started with a drug dealing family member. How can you prevent that from happening?

 

[quixotecoyote]

How are you less in danger if that drug-dealing family member doesn't leave your house and is inside with you and the others when the cops come?

How is the question you're using to answer a question related to the question it's questioning?

 

[William Parcher]

they will be encountering me with a large scary rifle in my hand,

The rifle won't do anything after the flash grenade goes boom. Then your eyes and ears and other nervous system don't work anymore.

 

[lobosrul]

Drug dealing at the house is a legitimate reason. Boom goes the door.

All these dangers get started with a drug dealing family member. How can you prevent that from happening?

If you'll re-read my post more carefully you'll see I said, the drug deal was unbeknownst to me. I guess I could never ever allow anyone to stay at my house to be absolutely sure know one is doing anything illegal, so that I won't have my door kicked down and be flash-banged in the middle of the night.

 

[lobosrul]

The rifle won't do anything after the flash grenade goes boom. Then your eyes and ears and other nervous system don't work anymore.

Not if they flash bang just inside the door, since my bedroom is up a flight of stairs. And I'm sure APD would see a gun and then empty 3 or 4 magazines into me even if I was totally incapacitated.

 

[Aepervius]

We don't have to look hard to see how legalized but still addictive substances play out. There are plenty of people who buy their drugs at a pharmacy and manage to get into trouble, up to and including overdose deaths.

Here's an interesting article from last December on CNN about the damage from prescription narcotics: http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/health/kentucky-overdoses/index.html

The headline (in my opinion a bit hyped) is: "Prescription Drugs 'Orphan' Children in Eastern Kentucky."

People blame drug on a lot of things. But I would like to see hard number that those kids rised by grand parents are due to drug of the parents. In my experience this happens because the parents (very often not even plural and most often single mother) must work in poorly paid job (like serving) with long time. Thus the grand parents used as baby sitter or even as ersatz parent.

 

[marplots]

People blame drug on a lot of things. But I would like to see hard number that those kids rised by grand parents are due to drug of the parents. In my experience this happens because the parents (very often not even plural and most often single mother) must work in poorly paid job (like serving) with long time. Thus the grand parents used as baby sitter or even as ersatz parent.

Could be, I didn't do any due diligence on the article. But even so, some wouldn't feel comfortable with a drug addicted parent raising children, no matter if the drugs involved were legal or not.