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Another cop murders a suspect

bruto said:
Of course we'll never know the real reason, since the driver was killed, but perhaps he was afraid that the cop would beat him up or worse if he pulled him out of the car. Unfortunately, that may not have been a miscall on the driver's part. His mistake may well have been believing he could get away before the cop shot him.

It's a difficult case for the cop here. What can he say? There was no good reason for the man to fear for his life, so I killed him for his misjudgment?
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He can say I reached inside the car the man drove away my arm was somehow stuck ,the driver didn't respond to the order to stop I feared for my life as the car was speeding up and shot him. IMO not an unlikely scenario from the video.

The jury will probably have better video than us that is slowed down and hopefully they will be able to tell and convict or acquit based upon the evidence.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
News conference on right now, because there was a body cam video, the prosecutor is indicting a University of Cincinnati police officer for murder for shooting a man in the head after a "chicken crap" traffic stop.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2015/07/29/publish/30830777/


The news media censored the kill shot, I'll have to wait for the video to be available elsewhere.

And Mark O'Mara's there talking about racism causing these kind of police reactions. :rolleyes: Reminds me of the OJ defense attorneys going out of their way to counter their image they got a murderer off.
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Glad to see from the op title you are waiting to hear any evidence
 
dudalb said:
And I don;t understand why some people are so quick to condmen the police without waiting for the facts to come out.....
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In this case the first I heard about it was the prosecutor's press conference calling it a senseless murder. And he released a clear recording of the event.

How much evidence is enough to at least consider what was more probable?
 
eeyore1954 said:
He can say I reached inside the car the man drove away my arm was somehow stuck ,the driver didn't respond to the order to stop I feared for my life as the car was speeding up and shot him. IMO not an unlikely scenario from the video.

The jury will probably have better video than us that is slowed down and hopefully they will be able to tell and convict or acquit based upon the evidence.
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The man was dead before the car sped away, pretty sure the frame by frame shows that.

And how does your arm get stuck inside a wide open window, and if it was is he sawing he shot with his arm in the line of fire? Pretty sure the frame by frame does not show his hand stuck anywhere.

And why did he lie about being dragged?
 
eeyore1954 said:
Glad to see from the op title you are waiting to hear any evidence
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See my previous post: "... the first I heard about it was the prosecutor's press conference calling it a senseless murder. And he released a clear recording of the event." From start to finish.
How long should I wait?
 
Question for LEOs (current or former) here. From what little I've seen of the video the officer's arm does not appear to have been caught on anything, and he wasn't being dragged along side the car. Purely as a hypothetical, if his arm had indeed been caught (or held onto by the driver intentionally) and the car started moving forward, would that have justified use of a firearm? I don't mean in the moral sense - legally, if the cop in this case were in fact stuck to the car and being dragged down the road, would shooting the driver have been legal?

I'm pretty pro-cop (which is why I never post in these threads), but barring something extreme like the car dragging him along for a block or getting up to 30 MPH or some such I have a very hard time believing that shooting the driver would be legal. In other words, even if the cop in this case does in fact make his defense that he was caught and the car was moving and somehow the jury believes that part, that wouldn't make a difference and he's still guilty of some level of murder.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
See my previous post: "... the first I heard about it was the prosecutor's press conference calling it a senseless murder. And he released a clear recording of the event." From start to finish.
How long should I wait?
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Do you always accept what the prosecutor says?
Watching the recording did not show to me the shooting happened before the car started moving? And I will bet the defense will say otherwise.
 
RandFan said:
Because it is used as an excuse not to do anything. It assumes that the problem is only a bottom up one. I remember all the talk about three strikes laws, tougher drug sentencing laws, build more prisons rhetoric...

We wake up one day having diverged from other industrialized nations with higher rates of crime and incarceration and some want to blame black people and stick their heads in the sand. There is no mystery here. This has been a problem in the making for decades and now its here why can't we focus on what we know are many of the underlying causes.

  • Stop the idiotic drug war.
  • Stop stupid minimum sentencing guidelines.
  • Fire bad police.
  • Fire leaders who knowingly hire bad police or refuse to do a back ground check
The problem was escalated top down and it will require a top down solution.
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The point I was trying to make was that this particular officer wasn't any more inclined to shoot the driver just because he was in the US. If we can agree that there are more highly charged fast reaction incidents like this in the US than in other first world countries then we will always have a higher number of officer involved shootings.

I am not trying to make excuses for not doing anything about the problems with this country, however I don't think that sending this officer to prison for the rest of his life if he in fact just overreacted to the situation is going to help.
 
jeffas69 said:
I am not trying to make excuses for not doing anything about the problems with this country, however I don't think that sending this officer to prison for the rest of his life if he in fact just overreacted to the situation is going to help.
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He shot and killed a civilian he suspected (correctly, though that doesn't matter a whit) was driving without a valid driver's license.

That goes well beyond "overreaction."

Then again, the guy was resisting arrest and it's well established that, according to some members of this forum, this is a capital offense. So, never mind. He got what he deserved. Let's just pin a medal on the hero cop and get on with our lives.
 
eeyore1954 said:
Do you always accept what the prosecutor says?
Watching the recording did not show to me the shooting happened before the car started moving? And I will bet the defense will say otherwise.
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Always?: No, of course not. Since when is drawing a conclusion in this clear-cut case mean anything about any other case?

I can't help what you see or don't see on the video. I see the vic slumped over in the seat before the car moves forward and so did the prosecutor.

Do you always accept what a prosecutor says? Like the Darren Wilson shooting where the prosecutor let the GJ listen to witnesses he knew weren't credible without questioning their stories, grilled witnesses that said they saw Wilson shoot Brown as Brown tried to surrender, and let Wilson essentially give his side of the story without challenging anything. How about that case? Did you accept what that prosecutor said?
 
Joe Random said:
Question for LEOs (current or former) here. From what little I've seen of the video the officer's arm does not appear to have been caught on anything, and he wasn't being dragged along side the car. Purely as a hypothetical, if his arm had indeed been caught (or held onto by the driver intentionally) and the car started moving forward, would that have justified use of a firearm? I don't mean in the moral sense - legally, if the cop in this case were in fact stuck to the car and being dragged down the road, would shooting the driver have been legal?

I'm pretty pro-cop (which is why I never post in these threads), but barring something extreme like the car dragging him along for a block or getting up to 30 MPH or some such I have a very hard time believing that shooting the driver would be legal. In other words, even if the cop in this case does in fact make his defense that he was caught and the car was moving and somehow the jury believes that part, that wouldn't make a difference and he's still guilty of some level of murder.
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!!! Anecdote Alert !!!

From my recollection LE and the judicial system give great deference to a moving vehicle once LE has made a stop. It is, IMO, often treated like a loaded gun. Once the intent to start or move the vehicle is made clear then, again IMO, the vehicle is seen as deadly to officers.

Judge finds officer Brelo not guilty on all counts
 
Question:

How did shooting DuBose in the head disentangle the officer?
 
He didn't look entangled to me when he drew his gun - but I couldn't see his other arm. Still... from what another police officer told me today, he SHOULD have stepped back from the car and allowed the perp to flee - that this is supposed to be standard procedure.

IF they can somehow prove the cop WAS entangled prior to drawing his gun, he MIGHT have a chance at a defense. But it looks pretty dim to me.

ETA: Yes, the officer's information is anecdotal, I get that. I'm not even sure if he's a patrol officer, desk jockey, or what. Our bowling alley seems to have a lot of police who bowl here regularly - our GM is a cop, too. So I hear a lot of stories.
 
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eeyore1954 said:
He can say I reached inside the car the man drove away my arm was somehow stuck ,the driver didn't respond to the order to stop I feared for my life as the car was speeding up and shot him. IMO not an unlikely scenario from the video.

The jury will probably have better video than us that is slowed down and hopefully they will be able to tell and convict or acquit based upon the evidence.
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A not unlikely scenario given the video? Really?

It is a barely plausible possibility absent the video. With the video, it is almost impossible that the cop could reasonably have ever believed his life was in danger. Indeed, I find it hard to believe anyone could watch the video and still believe this shooting was appropriate.
 
RandFan said:
!!! Anecdote Alert !!!

From my recollection LE and the judicial system give great deference to a moving vehicle once LE has made a stop. It is, IMO, often treated like a loaded gun. Once the intent to start or move the vehicle is made clear then, again IMO, the vehicle is seen as deadly to officers.

Judge finds officer Brelo not guilty on all counts
Click to expand...

Joe Random said:
Question for LEOs (current or former) here. From what little I've seen of the video the officer's arm does not appear to have been caught on anything, and he wasn't being dragged along side the car. Purely as a hypothetical, if his arm had indeed been caught (or held onto by the driver intentionally) and the car started moving forward, would that have justified use of a firearm? I don't mean in the moral sense - legally, if the cop in this case were in fact stuck to the car and being dragged down the road, would shooting the driver have been legal?

I'm pretty pro-cop (which is why I never post in these threads), but barring something extreme like the car dragging him along for a block or getting up to 30 MPH or some such I have a very hard time believing that shooting the driver would be legal. In other words, even if the cop in this case does in fact make his defense that he was caught and the car was moving and somehow the jury believes that part, that wouldn't make a difference and he's still guilty of some level of murder.
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Haven't seen the whole video from start to finish yet, but from what i've seen and read, if the prosecutor and defense both are sensical, this will result in a plea to manslaughter. It has 'manslaughter' written all over it from start to finish.
 
Typical LE answer in an interview on Chris Hayes just now: the suspect could have been dangerous, the officer has to decide. Not the suspect was dangerous.

And of course, no discussion of the key issue, what is police policy for fleeing suspects?
 
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