Another Antifa Call for Violence

[Thermal]

Because ANTIFA can do no wrong?

No, because they are embellishing antifa with powers, organization, and financial backing that they are known not to have. They don't charter buses and have pallets of bricks schlepped around. They are largely a bunch of broke-ass kids who throw down against Nazi type demonstrators, then they go home. Antifa and anarchists don't organize effectively pretty much by definition. Let me see you get 40 anarchists to raise money and charter a bus, much less show up on time.

 

[dann]

So no actual, factual, response then....


Maybe it's time for this.

Definitely! That was some efficient Nazi punching.
'Oh, the poor fascists! Their freedom of speech is being suppressed!'
I didn't see any of them getting egged. That must have been a mistake.

 

[Giordano]

Happened last week in a small wealthy community near me. Rumors of anarchists and rioters coming up to their suburban town to loot, rampage and eat the rich. But because the town occupants are wealthy they didn’t have to protect the town with axe handles and golf clubs themselves; instead they got 15 National Guardsmen in to protect them. Probably one for every 5 houses.

The show of force scared away the evil invaders so effectively that there wasn’t even a hint of the rumored invasion, or even of the rumored anarchists.

I’m thinking of starting a bus rental service for Antifa. Given they are busing rioters and anarchists into every demonstration I should make a fortune. I’ll decorate the interiors with Che posters and black flags. But cash only, upfront!

 

[Giordano]

No, because they are embellishing antifa with powers, organization, and financial backing that they are known not to have. They don't charter buses and have pallets of bricks schlepped around. They are largely a bunch of broke-ass kids who throw down against Nazi type demonstrators, then they go home. Antifa and anarchists don't organize effectively pretty much by definition. Let me see you get 40 anarchists to raise money and charter a bus, much less show up on time.

“Hey fellow Anarchists! If you ever expect to succeed you are going to have to get better organized!”

 

[Giordano]

Shouldn’t there be a lot of common ground between Anarchists and Republicans? Aren’t they both in favor of much smaller government?

 

[Cavemonster]

No, because they are embellishing antifa with powers, organization, and financial backing that they are known not to have. They don't charter buses and have pallets of bricks schlepped around. They are largely a bunch of broke-ass kids who throw down against Nazi type demonstrators, then they go home. Antifa and anarchists don't organize effectively pretty much by definition. Let me see you get 40 anarchists to raise money and charter a bus, much less show up on time.

I used to run in antifa circles and my general feeling is that both Trump's "They're a terrorist organization" and "They're anarchists, the term antifa is just a feeling with no organized action associated!" are both off the mark.

Sure, there's no single organization called "antifa" but there are a fair number of groups who take up the label and engage in black bloc or similar tactics.

A major chunk of the people I've known who associated with antifa are also involved with a lot of other activist work. Many of them had day jobs with nonprofits. The idea that they would be unable to organize because they're "anarchists" I think is an equivocation. There were no shortages of professionals at organizing. They're not training pilots to fly into buildings, but chartering a bus isn't beyond the financial and organizational capacity of the folks I've known.

Trump is still inventing a bogeyman that isn't there. Beating up a neo-nazi or smashing a Mcdonald's window is about as far as they're looking to go. And the numbers are still miniscule unless I'm missing something.

 

[Cavemonster]

Shouldn’t there be a lot of common ground between Anarchists and Republicans? Aren’t they both in favor of much smaller government?

Anarcho-capitalists and anarcho-socialists both believe that if you get government out of the way, people will naturally fall into their prefered model (oversimplified, but that's it when you strip it all down).

But in the meantime neither seem to be in too much of a hurry to dissolve their favorite parts of government. People on the right (except for a tiny chunk of the more extreme libertarians) don't want to shrink government in a way that minimizes policing or the military. People on the left won't give up welfare or safety nets.

 

[Arcade22]

I'm waiting for your to condemn the thuggery of Sam Adams and his 'Sons of Liberty'....

If he used violence, threats of violence, harassment or other equivalent means to suppress peoples ability to peacefully and legally hold demonstrations or otherwise publicly propagate their views then I'd condemn him for doing so.

I personally find that Neo-Nazis, racist far-right extremists and other people or organisations that are explicitly or implicitly hostile towards liberal democracy should not be legally allowed to engage in public demonstrations or other forms of political activism of that kind. Not only do they seek to abolish liberal democracy, but given their often thinly veiled violent hostility towards ethnic, racial, religious, linguistic or national minorities can cause significant anxiety and fear among said minority groups.

If they are then the appropriate response is not to use violence or harassment to shut them down, but instead argue for the laws to be changed.

 

[trustbutverify]

Anarcho-capitalists and anarcho-socialists both believe that if you get government out of the way, people will naturally fall into their prefered model (oversimplified, but that's it when you strip it all down).

But in the meantime neither seem to be in too much of a hurry to dissolve their favorite parts of government. People on the right (except for a tiny chunk of the more extreme libertarians) don't want to shrink government in a way that minimizes policing or the military. People on the left won't give up welfare or safety nets.

I suspect a large number of FMOTL, minimalist types would profoundly regret the extinction of first-world style government.

 

[Cavemonster]

I suspect a large number of FMOTL, minimalist types would profoundly regret the extinction of first-world style government.

I suspect that everyone has at least one facet of government they'd miss intensely and have a heck of a time trying to make up for with some non-governmental approach.

Pandemic response comes to mind. This administration did a crap job, but loose collectives of voluntary associations with profoundly different values and procedures would make this response look like a work of art.

 

[dudalb]

No, because they are embellishing antifa with powers, organization, and financial backing that they are known not to have. They don't charter buses and have pallets of bricks schlepped around. They are largely a bunch of broke-ass kids who throw down against Nazi type demonstrators, then they go home. Antifa and anarchists don't organize effectively pretty much by definition. Let me see you get 40 anarchists to raise money and charter a bus, much less show up on time.

Tbis. I don't have much love for Antifa (despite my being a very strong Anti Fascist0 not because they are anti fascist but a lof the ideas the more extreme factions advocateadvocate vary from stupid (the anarachist) to little better then fascism (the Maoist Hard Lline Marcist crowd0.
But they don't have anywhere near the power and ailibty that the right is trying to abscirbe to them.
In fact, a lot of the looting seems to have been done done not by the Antifa types but some criminal types making the most of opportunity. with no motives except llining their own pocket.
In fact I think Antifa could not revolt it's way out of a paper bag. Whole thing has been blown up by right wing media to discredit all demonstrators.
It does not help that some of the right wing commentartors are 6the same ones who excuse away the out and out racists at right wing events.

 

[dann]

And again. Klamath Falls this time, same story: small local protest, and the local community receives warnings about "antifa buses" full of looters on their way and due to arrive any minute, leading platoons of Gomers to show up to protect businesses from nobody.

That is astonishing. This level of paranoia can probably drive people to do anything. Some of those guys look like the ones who killed Ahmaud Arbery a few weeks ago.
It appears to be far worse than the War of the Worlds panic, which was probably made up anyway - unlike this one.

Some of them come to their senses when the antifa invasion never happens, but others insist that they have warded it off, i.e. they are so obsessed with the fantasy created by Trump and Barr that they cannot accept that it is only a fantasy even though nothing happens and the busses full of looting antifas never appear. They are like the end-of-the-world cults who can't accept that it didn't happen after all and come up with the explanation that their praying must have stopped God from fulfilling what their preachers prophesied - but with an awful lot of guns!

The armed man who livestreamed the protest, who was worried about antifa coming to murder white people, posted an update to his Facebook page acknowledging the risks had been overblown. "I know your hearts and minds were in the right place," he wrote, "but a lot of the info was bad."

Still others remain convinced that antifa had been there that night, run off by the sight of hundreds of armed patriots.

And that’s the story spreading online.

"Antifa RETREATS From Suburb After Business Owner and Neighborhood Show Up With Guns," stated the headline on the website NewsPunch, one of the internet’s most notorious fake news destinations. The article quotes a Facebook post by Dan Kline, the owner of a local billiards bar.
In Klamath Falls, Oregon, victory declared over antifa, which never showed up (NBC News, June 6, 2020)

 

[EHocking]

That is astonishing. This level of paranoia can probably drive people to do anything. Some of those guys look like the ones who killed the Ahmaud Arbery a few weeks ago.
It appears to be far worse than the War of the Worlds panic, which was probably made up anyway - unlike this one.

Some of them come to their senses when the antifa invasion never happens, but others insist that they have warded it off, i.e. they are so obsessed with the fantasy created by Trump and Barr that they cannot accept that it is only a fantasy even though nothing happens and the busses full of looting antifas never appear. They are like the end-of-the-world cults who can't accept that it didn't happen after all and come up with the explanation that their praying must have stopped God from fulfilling what their preachers prophesied - but with awful lot of guns!

I wonder if they don't have a problem with tigers either.
I have a solution to that not-problem too. . .

 

[eirik]

I assume that this is what he is talking about:

"In January 2007, the windows (in the house belonging to) a Sweden Democrats local politician in Kalmar were broken. On its homepage AFA Dackebygd claimed to be responsible."

If my assumption is correct, this is what he calls "center-right":



In other words, typically alt-right!
I don't think anybody but the Sweden Democrats themselves would refer to Sweden Democrats as "center-right."

Besides the questionable historical roots of the Sweden Democrats, today they're a mainstream political party with about 20 % of the national vote.

- Are you OK with "activists" vandalizing the home of elected politicians?
- Is it excusable if its homes of politicians with politics one don't agree with?

 

[eirik]

Interesting factoid. The Socialist Rifle Association increased in membership by 20% in the last 2 weeks.

Well on our way to ending the right wing's monopoly on gun ownership. To our American forum members, there's probably a chapter near you. Cops and racists need not apply.

Leftists with guns could be useful for a thing later.

I teach new shooters for free. I imagine other chapters are likewise supportive. Time to gun up.

Wow …


Two questions: A lot of you guys seem knowledgeable of Antifa, so maybe you can help me out.

My non-expert impression of Antifa was that they're is a band of marxist hard liners, and they are prone to violence. Not mass shootings style of violence, but violent tactics like bullying, beatings etc. Am I conflating with black bloc-ish groups?

Are there really moderates in Antifa-groups or under the Antifa-banner, people in the moderate left or right who sincerely just opposes fascism?

 

[dann]

Let me recommend again Trevor Noah & The Daily Show's presentation of the very diverse group of people called antifa:

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Wow …


Two questions: A lot of you guys seem knowledgeable of Antifa, so maybe you can help me out.

My non-expert impression of Antifa was that they're is a band of marxist hard liners, and they are prone to violence. Not mass shootings style of violence, but violent tactics like bullying, beatings etc. Am I conflating with black bloc-ish groups?

Are there really moderates in Antifa-groups or under the Antifa-banner, people in the moderate left or right who sincerely just opposes fascism?

There's a pretty big difference between American antifa vs European antifa, largely due to relative weakness of leftist politics in the US.

The most belligerent antifas are the most visible simply because violence catches all the attention.

As far as I can tell, Portland's "rose city antifa" is the closet thing to an organized, black bloc in the United States, and they are most known for fighting with likewise militant right-wing extremists like Patriot Prayer or Proud Boys. Of course, antifa doesn't enjoy the same cozy relationship with the local cops that right wing terrorists do, so they have to be more cautious about how and when they use violence. Even this black-bloc group is nowhere near the size to warrant the absurd hysteria spread by right wing media.

There is a large "online antifa" community (though not organized) that engage in 100% lawful activities like exposing nazis and getting them fired or otherwise socially ostracized. They dox racist cops, they investigate and dox fascists who participate in street displays, and they track online organizations that are likely to commit acts of mass violence. This doesn't grab the same headlines as black-bloc skirmishing with neo-fascists, but it's a huge component of modern anti-fascism.

I'm curious about you "wow" comment. Does leftists arming up alarm you? Right wingers are armed to the teeth in this country and are constantly looking for provocation to kill their political enemies, often with the implicit blessing of law enforcement. Is arming in self defense an unreasonable response?

 

[uke2se]

Besides the questionable historical roots of the Sweden Democrats, today they're a mainstream political party with about 20 % of the national vote.

We really shouldn't be normalizing our Nazi-party. 20% stupid people and racists don't make the party mainsteam.

- Are you OK with "activists" vandalizing the home of elected politicians?

If they are Nazis, sure.

- Is it excusable if its homes of politicians with politics one don't agree with?

If it's Nazism, sure.

Nazism isn't just "politics I disagree with".

"But the Sweden Democrats aren't nazis" I hear you complain. Sure, buddy. Nudge-nudge, wink-wink.

 

[dann]

Besides the questionable historical roots of the Sweden Democrats, today they're a mainstream political party with about 20 % of the national vote.

- Are you OK with "activists" vandalizing the home of elected politicians?
- Is it excusable if its homes of politicians with politics one don't agree with?

Are you aware that in a situation when policemen are killing unarmed black people and protesters in the street, you are concerned about broken windows in a racist politician's house?

Sverigedemokraterna are no more "a mainstream political party" than all the other anti-immigration and anti-Muslim political parties that they are affiliated with. Pretending that you are no longer a Nazi is the whole point of the invention of alt-right. When a party's roots are "in Swedish fascism and white nationalism, but began distancing itself from its past during the late 1990s and early 2000s," it is clear to everybody that its distancing is pretense.

The only thing that makes Sverigedemokraterna differ from Euro Nazis is probably that the others aren't particularly concerned about the indigenous Swedish minority, the Sami people.

I don't think that the Danish People's Party, our local anti-immigration, anti-Muslim party, wants to take away the rights of Greenlanders, for instance. (But I wouldn't be very surprised if some of its members would.)

 

[dann]

"But the Sweden Democrats aren't nazis" I hear you complain. Sure, buddy. Nudge-nudge, wink-wink.

You beat me to it!