Animal emotions including depression and suicide.

[Cainkane1]

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...n_new_zealand_do_animals_commit_suicide_.html

I once went on a trip around the USA that lasted eight weeks. I came home and my dog was there. He was eckstatic. Getting in my face and and whimpering, seemingly overcome with emotion. I have to assume he was sad during long absense. He obviously hadn't committed suicide but animals do seem to have the same emotions humans do. Apparently even animals such as birds have these emotions.

This is why I don't hunt.

 

[Number Six]

I think there are two things here. One is how much emotions animals have. The other is how much emotion humans perceive animals as having. And of course each of those varies by animal and to some degree by human.

I suspect that humans perceive dogs as having more emotion than most if not all other animals, including other humans. But do they? I don't know. I suspect not but maybe it depends on how you define emotions. As far as being closer to humans in intellect goes there are lots of animals ahead of dogs in the line so maybe they are ahead of dogs in the emotion line too.

I've read that dolphins are very intelligent. And they jump out of the water now and then and exhibit intelligence and all that stuff. But do they ever exhibit as much emotion when you first see them after you've been awhile away as do dogs? Dogs are crazy, nutso on that front, which is why humans like them so much, but I'm not sure that is dogs exhibiting emotion so much as it is humans perceiving it.

 

[Pulvinar]

I think there are two things here. One is how much emotions animals have. The other is how much emotion humans perceive animals as having. And of course each of those varies by animal and to some degree by human.

Except how could there be a *real* amount of emotions independent of how we decide to measure them? I suspect you mean perceived by the animal itself.

 

[Scott Haley]

When wolves leave their puppies alone, it's usually because they're off hunting. When the adults come back, the puppies greet them enthusiastically to get their attention. Then they try to lick the adults' faces, to get them to regurgitate some food. Dogs retain puppy instincts throughout life.

Despite that, I love to be joyously greeted by a dog.

 

[Number Six]

The pup licking the face of the mother dog is an example of our perception being different from what is going on. When they do it in the wild we say the pups are trying to get the mother dog (or wolf, whatever) to regurgitate food. When they do it to us it's suddenly because the dog loves us. But the drive for the dog is the same either way. Despite the fact that its human master never responds to the face licking by regurgitating food, the dog will keep licking its masters face for years. The dogs are driven to lick faces because it got their ancestors food and they do it now regardless of whether it gets them food. And maybe even you could say that dogs are driven to lick human faces because humans find that behavior endearing and as a result they give the dogs more food, so licking human faces gets dogs food too. That doesn't make it an emotion though.

As far as there being real emotion independent of how we decide to measure it, I'm not sure what that's getting at. If you made a machine that behaved like a dog there would be no emotion at all. OTOH a dog does whatever it does and has whatever emotion it has. But the behavior is the same either way. Or maybe two people have the same amount of emotion about something but one exhibits it and the other keeps it inside. To an observer they have different amounts of emotions but in reality they have the same amount.

I guess maybe it all comes down to how emotions are defined. If human brains create human emotions what are dog brains capable of creating relative to human brains? I don't know exactly.

 

[coalesce]

I have no doubt that all the cats I've owned in my life (six so far) have definite intelligence, emotion and personalities. They may not have the tools to fully express themselves the same way humans do, or it may be that I may not have all the tools to perceive their emotions the way another cat may. They are, however, able to express their feelings to me, be it happy, sad, lonely or angry (such as when my former cat Vinny peed in my ex-wife's shoes because they really didn't like one another.) Either way, I feel my cat Clancy and I on the same page.

Michael

 

[Number Six]

I agree that animals have some of those but what I don't know is how much of them they have relative to humans.

It's interesting to that that if we can have way more intelligence, emotions, yadda yadda than do animals then there's no reason there can't exist creatures that have way more of those things than us.

 

[EHocking]

I have no doubt that all the cats I've owned in my life (six so far) have definite intelligence, emotion and personalities. They may not have the tools to fully express themselves the same way humans do, or it may be that I may not have all the tools to perceive their emotions the way another cat may. They are, however, able to express their feelings to me, be it happy, sad, lonely or angry (such as when my former cat Vinny peed in my ex-wife's shoes because they really didn't like one another.) Either way, I feel my cat Clancy and I on the same page.

Michael

I'm with Scott Haley on this one.

The cat peeing in your wife's shoes could also be explained as a territorial reaction.

Cats mark their territory with urine and will urinate on items marked by another's scent - in this case, your wife and her shoes rather than another cat and a bush.

Attributing this to be similar to your human emotion towards your wife is not sound, IMO.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think there are two things here. One is how much emotions animals have. The other is how much emotion humans perceive animals as having. And of course each of those varies by animal and to some degree by human.

I suspect that humans perceive dogs as having more emotion than most if not all other animals, including other humans. But do they? I don't know. I suspect not but maybe it depends on how you define emotions. As far as being closer to humans in intellect goes there are lots of animals ahead of dogs in the line so maybe they are ahead of dogs in the emotion line too.

I've read that dolphins are very intelligent. And they jump out of the water now and then and exhibit intelligence and all that stuff. But do they ever exhibit as much emotion when you first see them after you've been awhile away as do dogs? Dogs are crazy, nutso on that front, which is why humans like them so much, but I'm not sure that is dogs exhibiting emotion so much as it is humans perceiving it.

All one need do is observe these animals to answer your questions. People often take anti-anthropomorphizing much too far. It's a caution, not some absolute rule that says you can't interpret a wagging tail as an emotional response in a dog.

It may be difficult to recognize emotions in species that express them in ways much different than humans do. Octopi and cuttlefish, for example, may be expressing emotions through skin signals and it would be hard to know. However, one could with careful observation notice patterns and perhaps draw conclusions. But again, the octopus brain is so different from ours it is hard to say what such a brain experiences in the way of emotions. However, evolution tends to select certain patterns, eyesight, locomotion and so on. So it makes sense that emotions are naturally selected.


But as for the cat and dog, I've seen my cat looking for its kittens when it was time to take them away. It was upset regardless if the quality was the same as sadness we experience with loss.

But my dogs, there is no question they experience happiness, stubbornness and aggression.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I have never seen any evidence for animal suicide, however. And as for depression with a loss, just as with most humans, eventually we get over the worst of it and miss the person but stop grieving. With a rare exception, like the dog that waits daily in some spot for a deceased owner to return, I've not seen obviously depressed animals not counting those depressed by the cage they are confined to (an ongoing cause for sadness as opposed to a loss created sadness).

Jane Goodall documented depression in a chimpanzee who's mother died that led to the chimp's eventual death.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...They are, however, able to express their feelings to me, ... (such as when my former cat Vinny peed in my ex-wife's shoes because they really didn't like one another.) ...

While I don't doubt the rest of your observations, this conclusion seems a stretch.

 

[Dessi]

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...n_new_zealand_do_animals_commit_suicide_.html

I once went on a trip around the USA that lasted eight weeks. I came home and my dog was there. He was eckstatic. Getting in my face and and whimpering, seemingly overcome with emotion. I have to assume he was sad during long absense. He obviously hadn't committed suicide but animals do seem to have the same emotions humans do. Apparently even animals such as birds have these emotions.

On the one hand, there's a class of skepticism that tends to deny that animals experience emotions beyond zombie like instinctual responses. On the other hand, psychologists have been designing animal models of clinical depression, psychologically disturbed animals with tendencies toward self-mutilation, learned helplessness, and so on for decades. There are also 1000s of experiments documenting the visible behavioral responses of addiction and withdrawal which can be severe enough that animals maim themselves.

Obviously animals have a complex mental life which includes emotional experiences.

 

[Cheetah]

The idea that animals are biological machines with a multitude of pre-programmed responses to different situations is an old and in my opinion very silly idea, it really makes no sense once you think about it. I don't know why its taken so long to start falling out of favor (Edit: That's actually a lie, I've got a fair idea ).

Sure, there are some higher order emotions that only make sense in a social context, which some animals might lack, but the basics are surely almost universal in at least mammals and birds (and quite possibly go even further back).

Emotions are a neat and simple way for evolution to 'get the job done', without a bunch of very complicated pre-programing. It is also a much more flexible and adaptable way of doing it.
Make a parent bird/animal love and care about their kids and they will do their best to raise them properly and protect them from harm. Evolution would quickly get stuck if it had to pre-program a response for every eventuality.

When an animal is in need of sustenance evolution makes them want to go to all the trouble of looking for and finding food, by making them feel hungry, I don't think too many would dispute this. The same goes for reproduction, pre-programming, not necessary, just make 'em horny, real horny . As soon as love, anger, depression etc is mentioned, pertaining to animals, there seems to be some disconnect/denial, dunno why (Edit: Another one, I've got a fair idea).

I've seen many animals/birds get p'd-off and angry, throw a temper tantrum, or depressed when losing a friend. Sometimes it is clearly counterproductive in a supposed 'pre-programmed by evolution' sense. You definitely don't have to be intelligent to really feel hungry or angry or love or horny.

What would be a great mystery, would be if evolution did things completely differently for animals and then suddenly emotions popped up in the human animal (and all that supposed pre-programming suddenly disappeared), makes no sense.

 

[dlorde]

What would be a great mystery, would be if evolution did things completely differently for animals and then suddenly emotions popped up in the human animal (and all that supposed pre-programming suddenly disappeared), makes no sense.

Exactly.

 

[Cainkane1]

Reading stories concerning being licked by dogs seem to mean they are merely trying to get food from whomever they are licking but my dog used to lick me after he had eaten. I gave him good dogfood and meat scraps. So if they lick your face after they get fed well what does that mean? I think puppy kisses after the puppy eats is akin to kissing.

 

[Pulvinar]

So if they lick your face after they get fed well what does that mean?

It means your face is now covered with bits of dog food.

What always amuses me is that many people can have insight into the internal states of animal brains, yet insist that machines couldn't have such states.

 

[I Ratant]

When wolves leave their puppies alone, it's usually because they're off hunting. When the adults come back, the puppies greet them enthusiastically to get their attention. Then they try to lick the adults' faces, to get them to regurgitate some food. Dogs retain puppy instincts throughout life.

Despite that, I love to be joyously greeted by a dog.

.
I love that too!
I hate to see a nasty dog.
I have to presume the owner is equally nasty, or has no interest in the dog's wellbeing.
ST's dog is all over me when I got there.
There's some around here that come to greet me when I walk by.
Others that are really loud and nasty when inside their yards, but not so brave when outside, and really appreciate my putting them back inside, where they can be brave and loud again.

 

[I Ratant]

Reading stories concerning being licked by dogs seem to mean they are merely trying to get food from whomever they are licking but my dog used to lick me after he had eaten. I gave him good dogfood and meat scraps. So if they lick your face after they get fed well what does that mean? I think puppy kisses after the puppy eats is akin to kissing.

.
A couple of the dogs I see when walking will lick my hand, although I've never fed them.

 

[Steve001]

Rats studies done several years ago showed rats capable of laughing.
Chimpanzees also laugh. Dogs have a laugh of a sort when playing. It sounds like panting.

 

[Number Six]

This whole thing might be getting into the distinction between emotion and instinct and urge. Humans can love each other and then want to have sex to express it but can we be sure it's an expression of their emotion rather than just the filling of an urge? Maybe at some level there is no difference between the two.

I don't doubt that animals have some level of what humans call emotions but there are two difficulties I have with flat out stating what we see in animals is point blank emotion.

One if that dogs, for instance, exhibit a lot more of what we'd call emotion than other animals. That means either dogs have a lot more emotions than other animals, which seems odd, or we're observing what we see in dogs as a lot of emotion but at least some of which isn't emotion.

There are two parts to the second thing pertains to animal parents and offspring. Male animals run the gamut from getting the female pregnant and then leaving right away for good to staying to help raise the offspring all the way until the offspring are independent. Human males do this too, but that's all within the group of human males whereas with animals it's more like, all Male X animals leave right after copulation, all Male Y animals stick around to raise their young, etc. So if it's solely emotion driving them then it's strange that all Male X animals have no emotion with regards to their offspring while all Male Y animals have a lot of emotion towards them.

The second part to this second thing is that AFAIK animals mostly raise their young until the young are independent and then the young leave and that's it. The animal parent doesn't have the animal offspring over for Thanksgiving and hector them about when they're going to get some grandchildren. So if animal parents raise their offspring because they love them then the love seems to shut off when the offspring become independent.