Angelika Graswald

[shuttlt]

We have at least one telescope involved in the story already. We don't know that the witnesses of the capsizing were on shore. If the were on shore, we don't know how far from the action they were or what view they had. I don't see any way of making a judgement about the witnesses based on the current information.

 

[shuttlt]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/21/nyregion/couples-kayak-trip-on-hudson-included-missteps-and-dangers-experts-say.html?_r=0
It appears she did have a life jacket, he didn't.

This seems worth knowing:

“When they left Plum Point, it would have been an easy paddle to Bannerman Island,” he said. “On the way back, it would have been much harder.”

There is some information on the type of kayak used.

Also:

Body Found in the Hudson Is Not That of Missing Kayaker: Police

http://www.people.com/article/body-found-in-hudson-not-that-of-missing-kayaker-police

 

[anglolawyer]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/21/nyregion/couples-kayak-trip-on-hudson-included-missteps-and-dangers-experts-say.html?_r=0
It appears she did have a life jacket, he didn't.

This seems worth knowing:


There is some information on the type of kayak used.

Also:

http://www.people.com/article/body-found-in-hudson-not-that-of-missing-kayaker-police

That first link is fascinating. Wrong kayak, no life vest, no dry suit or wet suit. Maybe this was s suicide pact. Also this:

Some white-water kayaks have drain plugs on the top that are used to rid the kayak of any water by flipping the boat over back on dry land. Ms. Graswald’s lawyer, Richard A. Portale, said that Mr. Viafore’s plug was in the couple’s apartment and that it had been pulled out of the kayak some time ago.

In theory, a missing plug would not cause the kayak to flood since the hole is small. In very choppy conditions, however, waves will splash directly into the cockpit, causing the kayak to ride low in the water and become unstable.

What happened that day on the river was an accident, Mr. Portale said, adding that Ms. Graswald’s comments to the police were coerced.

“Vincent went out to the island in those waters, at that time of day, with no life vest and no plug and a few beers,” he said. “Vincent capsized and drowned, and it’s tragic.”

What the … ?

I am seriously wondering how they are going to prove this case, assuming all this is true. What exactly did she do to kill him? She can't have made him not wear a vest or not wear a dry suit. He can't not have known his plug was out. She can't have made him use the wrong kind of boat. The plug being out would not necessarily sink the boat anyway (says the article, which has a picture showing where the plug goes).

Why would someone own a kayak and not keep the plug in the *********** kayak? Is there a black market in kayak plugs?

 

[Samson]

That first link is fascinating. Wrong kayak, no life vest, no dry suit or wet suit. Maybe this was s suicide pact. Also this:

Some white-water kayaks have drain plugs on the top that are used to rid the kayak of any water by flipping the boat over back on dry land. Ms. Graswald’s lawyer, Richard A. Portale, said that Mr. Viafore’s plug was in the couple’s apartment and that it had been pulled out of the kayak some time ago.

In theory, a missing plug would not cause the kayak to flood since the hole is small. In very choppy conditions, however, waves will splash directly into the cockpit, causing the kayak to ride low in the water and become unstable.

What happened that day on the river was an accident, Mr. Portale said, adding that Ms. Graswald’s comments to the police were coerced.

“Vincent went out to the island in those waters, at that time of day, with no life vest and no plug and a few beers,” he said. “Vincent capsized and drowned, and it’s tragic.”

What the … ?

I am seriously wondering how they are going to prove this case, assuming all this is true. What exactly did she do to kill him? She can't have made him not wear a vest or not wear a dry suit. He can't not have known his plug was out. She can't have made him use the wrong kind of boat. The plug being out would not necessarily sink the boat anyway (says the article, which has a picture showing where the plug goes).

Why would someone own a kayak and not keep the plug in the *********** kayak? Is there a black market in kayak plugs?

Anglo. the strange thing is I would not be surprised for the prosecution to succeed here (NZ). But to what extent do we disbelieve everything? Confession, witness testimony, insurance data, heh this case has everything......
I remain 50 /50

 

[shuttlt]

Ms. Graswald’s lawyer, Richard A. Portale, said that Mr. Viafore’s plug was in the couple’s apartment and that it had been pulled out of the kayak some time ago.

But then again, the defence would say that, wouldn't they?

I am seriously wondering how they are going to prove this case, assuming all this is true. What exactly did she do to kill him? She can't have made him not wear a vest or not wear a dry suit.

Forced him not to, probably not. I don't see why it would necessarily have been hard to arrange it so he wasn't wearing one.

He can't not have known his plug was out.

Why can't he not have known this?

The plug being out would not necessarily sink the boat anyway (says the article, which has a picture showing where the plug goes).

I don't think it necessarily has to be a sure fire method.

Why would someone own a kayak and not keep the plug in the *********** kayak?

It's her story that this is the case.

 

[anglolawyer]

Ms. Graswald’s lawyer, Richard A. Portale, said that Mr. Viafore’s plug was in the couple’s apartment and that it had been pulled out of the kayak some time ago.

But then again, the defence would say that, wouldn't they?

If the defence is going to make **** up, it must be unfalsifiable ****. So, is there or isn't there his kayak plug at home?

I am seriously wondering how they are going to prove this case, assuming all this is true. What exactly did she do to kill him? She can't have made him not wear a vest or not wear a dry suit.

Forced him not to, probably not. I don't see why it would necessarily have been hard to arrange it so he wasn't wearing one.

How, exactly?

He can't not have known his plug was out.

Why can't he not have known this?

In your article there is a picture of the plug hole, It's right in front of where he sits. He could notice while paddling or before getting in the water. IOW trying to murder him this way depends on him not noticing something right in front of his face.

The plug being out would not necessarily sink the boat anyway (says the article, which has a picture showing where the plug goes).

I don't think it necessarily has to be a sure fire method.

Do you mean in law? That is actually quite interesting, theoretically speaking. Need to think about that.

Why would someone own a kayak and not keep the plug in the *********** kayak?

It's her story that this is the case.

I know, but as I said above, when people tell lies there are rules and one of them is the lie should not be easily falsifiable.

 

[shuttlt]

If the defence is going to make **** up, it must be unfalsifiable ****. So, is there or isn't there his kayak plug at home?

Probably is now. The claim is that it's been there for weeks or months.

How, exactly?

I don't know. It depends on specifics about them and their relationship. One way might be to deliberately leave it at home, then blame him for leaving it at home, and bitch and moan until he got his ass into the Kayak.

In your article there is a picture of the plug hole, It's right in front of where he sits. He could notice while paddling or before getting in the water. IOW trying to murder him this way depends on him not noticing something right in front of his face.

"The kayak, he said, had been missing a plug in its stern for some time, which did not affect its buoyancy"
http://www.smh.com.au/world/a-kayak-trip-on-the-hudson-river-ends-in-death-and-an-arrest-20150513-gh0hmu.html

It's the plug at the rear of the kayak.

Do you mean in law? That is actually quite interesting, theoretically speaking. Need to think about that.

Not sure that I meant law specifically, or exclusively. If you want someone dead, but do it in an idle kind of way where you just arrange an accident that might or might not kill them, and then stand around watching them while they die... then that's enough for me. Maybe it's some lesser offence in law, I don't know.

I know, but as I said above, when people tell lies there are rules and one of them is the lie should not be easily falsifiable.

She might reasonably believe, if she is a killer, that they would not be able to tell that the plug was only removed a week ago. Maybe they can?

 

[anglolawyer]

Probably is now. The claim is that it's been there for weeks or months.

OK, I think I see. Don't you think this a very, very thin murder plot? She just takes the bung out of his boat and hopes for the best? He must then not notice it and they must go out on a day on which the outward journey is just fine but the homeward one is lethal, with him co-operatively not wearing a buoyancy aid or a dry suit. That seems very far-fetched to me.

I don't know. It depends on specifics about them and their relationship. One way might be to deliberately leave it at home, then blame him for leaving it at home, and bitch and moan until he got his ass into the Kayak.

I agree there may be stuff like that that we simply don't know. If those were the facts, I am doubtful whether they would amount to murder. There is no wrongful act (actus reus).

It's the plug at the rear of the kayak.

OK, but even so when pushing the boat into the water it's going to be highly noticeable, perhaps also when arriving at the island and noticing a bit more water than normal in the boat.

Not sure that I meant law specifically, or exclusively. If you want someone dead, but do it in an idle kind of way where you just arrange an accident that might or might not kill them, and then stand around watching them while they die... then that's enough for me.

Like cutting the brakes in a car. That is very proximate to the resulting death when car hits tree, but the plug thing is not so proximate. Many other intervening things need to happen. Still, it's a serviceable analogy I guess.

She might reasonably believe, if she is a killer, that they would not be able to tell that the plug was only removed a week ago. Maybe they can?

Say she removed the plug that day even. Who would know? She also had time (after the death) to put it somewhere prominent so she could suggest that he could not have missed it by accident and just liked living close to the edge Maybe past wives/girlfriends can testify to his habits as a kayaker.

But why would you ever remove the plug? I mean other than to do the emptying thing, whereon you put it straight back. The best place to keep it is in the plug hole, obviously. Do you keep your bath plug in a safe deposit box at the bank, or on a shelf in the garage? No!!! You keep it in the *********** bath! Why would you ever keep it anywhere else?

 

[Ron Swanson]

Assume she did it ... What would be behind the psychology? Why admit enough to be arrested, then defending yourself?

The simple answer would be, to do it for the attention, if so? its working AND she'll probably get off.

Now assuming she didn't do it? ... same result ... just lie and say you did ... then defend yourself ... same attention.

 

[shuttlt]

Assume she did it ... What would be behind the psychology? Why admit enough to be arrested, then defending yourself?

Not everybody is good at lying under pressure or has the presence of mind to shut the hell up. Isn't the whole point of some types of interrogation techniques that when confronted with evidence that they are lying (even when they aren't), many people will find it less stressful to confess while trying to put a sympathetic spin on things?

 

[anglolawyer]

Not everybody is good at lying under pressure or has the presence of mind to shut the hell up. Isn't the whole point of some types of interrogation techniques that when confronted with evidence that they are lying (even when they aren't), many people will find it less stressful to confess while trying to put a sympathetic spin on things?

Quite. She had written that she wished him dead. She had danced about and performed karaoke. She may well have been induced to confess from a feeling that denial was futile. All will be much clearer when we see this confession, assuming it is not ruled inadmissible.

 

[3point14]

I don't how you come to the side of innocence as far as her behavior goes. Going to bar singing /karaoke or similar is not something I was in the mood to do for weeks when I lost my girlfriend to cancer decades ago.

Sure people react differently but most people which I know grieve, do not go entertain themselves in such a way within a tenday.

At the very least even if you do not hold that this suggest culpability, this does not suggest innocence in any way shape or form. At most you can only say "we don't know".

Because someone acts in a way contrary to how you or those you know act, (a self selecting and probably too small a sized sample) that means they're more likely to be guilty?

 

[Ron Swanson]

Not everybody is good at lying under pressure or has the presence of mind to shut the hell up ...

Yes agreed! ... My post may have came off as definitive ... but I really meant to say is I'm just speculating one possibility of 'getting attention' reason to confess ... most of the other theories seem plausible as well at this point.

 

[Elagabalus]

Like Sampson I'm 50/50, but I would just like to say :

Probably is now. The claim is that it's been there for weeks or months...

Very much this. I wonder if his kayak didn't already have a faulty plug that was noticed but got the "nah, I'll fix it next time treatment". Also, how does an observer on the shore know when a kayak is capsized intentionally or by accident? Is there something obvious that needs to be done to capsize a kayak intentionally?

Nailed it!

Also the plug probably isn't at the apartment because it was taken off long ago and "didn't affect its buoyancy" so no one cared enough to put it back on and was lost. Perhaps some old photos of the kayak will surface?

Did they go to the shore to specifically go kayaking? Were the kayak's always on his vehicle? Perhaps they went for a BBQ he imbibed a few beers and then felt like getting into the water even though he left his safety equipment at home.

Still a lot of unknowns ....

 

[hollyanna919]

"Apologies for quoting the mail. I really want to know now what the source of the "she wasn't on the insurance" claim is."

From Newsweek article Hobby or Homicide? How a Kayaking Disappearance Turned Into a Murder Investigation
BY MAX KUTNER 5/18/15 AT 2:23 PM (the forum won't let me post a URL)

"At a bail hearing on May 13, prosecutors said that based on her statements to them, they believe Graswald tampered with Viafore’s kayak and watched him drown. They also said she was the beneficiary on his life insurance policies, though her lawyer has said Viafore’s sister is the beneficiary".

With regard to the Kayak plug this is from a New York Times article: Couple’s Kayak Trip on Hudson Included Mistakes, Experts Say

By LISA W. FODERAROMAY 20, 2015

"Some white-water kayaks have drain plugs on the top that are used to rid the kayak of any water by flipping the boat over on dry land. Ms. Graswald’s lawyer, Richard A. Portale, said that Mr. Viafore’s plug was in the couple’s apartment and that it had been pulled out of the kayak some time ago.
In theory, a missing plug would not cause the kayak to flood since the hole is small. In very choppy conditions, however, waves will splash directly into the cockpit, causing the kayak to ride low in the water and become unstable".

 

[Desert Fox]

Seems like a pretty dumb way to plot a murder

 

[catsmate]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/21/nyregion/couples-kayak-trip-on-hudson-included-missteps-and-dangers-experts-say.html?_r=0
It appears she did have a life jacket, he didn't.

Why didn't he?

Some white-water kayaks have drain plugs on the top that are used to rid the kayak of any water by flipping the boat over back on dry land. Ms. Graswald’s lawyer, Richard A. Portale, said that Mr. Viafore’s plug was in the couple’s apartment and that it had been pulled out of the kayak some time ago.

In theory, a missing plug would not cause the kayak to flood since the hole is small. In very choppy conditions, however, waves will splash directly into the cockpit, causing the kayak to ride low in the water and become unstable.

What happened that day on the river was an accident, Mr. Portale said, adding that Ms. Graswald’s comments to the police were coerced.

“Vincent went out to the island in those waters, at that time of day, with no life vest and no plug and a few beers,” he said. “Vincent capsized and drowned, and it’s tragic.”

The plug bit is interesting. Frankly I can't see how he was unaware of the lack if he was able to use the kayak at all.

OK, I think I see. Don't you think this a very, very thin murder plot? She just takes the bung out of his boat and hopes for the best? He must then not notice it and they must go out on a day on which the outward journey is just fine but the homeward one is lethal, with him co-operatively not wearing a buoyancy aid or a dry suit. That seems very far-fetched to me.

Yeah, very dubious.

 

[Desert Fox]

I am a tough guy, I don't need no life vest in freezing cold waters

One item we always have to watch for is that we don't know how accurately the media and police report things actually are.

 

[anglolawyer]

They may have found his body.

It seems she has given some exclusive interviews to People magazine. Has anyone seen those?

 

[shuttlt]

Why didn't he?

We don't know.

The plug bit is interesting. Frankly I can't see how he was unaware of the lack if he was able to use the kayak at all.

Why couldn't he have been unaware of it? Why might he have been unable to use the kayak at all?