Andrea Dworkin is dead

[jj]

Hi Skeptic,

I'm paying close attention to your posts. I think you make some valid points. You are correct, Just because something is legal doesn't make it morally correct. There are a number of anecdotal accounts to prove that there are problems associated with the porn industry that seem unique to that industry. I think some people are defiantly exploited. And while I might be tempted to agree with you I have not seen any data beyond the anecdotal and suspect that the argument might be specious. I really don't know.

How much of those problems stem from the pejoritive nature of the industry, as presently enforced by both law and popular moral/ethic?

It's the same question as with more, um, earthy elements of the same trade. How much of the problem in the trade comes from the illegality, an illegality that seems to be based, at least partially, in religious thinking?

I'm not convinced that the industry is per se soul destroying. I will keep an open mind. I grew up in a religion that held that porn was evil and I held that view for some time. I also held that masturbation was evil. I don't hold either view anymore. Perhaps one should not be connected to the other.

Well, the use of the term "soul destroying" in and of itself seems to me to be introducing something that's debatable, in and of itself.

How much of the problem comes from the myths and fears involving human reproductive issues?

I sincerely thank you for your contributions to the discussion.

RandFan

 

[Suddenly]

No, I don't. Not ALL. But it is in general a degrading thing to both the actors and the viewer to the financial benefit of the producer. Do exceptions exist? Sure. But they are few and far between. The porn industry is a sordid business, using the financial desperation of the actors to satisfy the prurient interests of the viewers.

Should it be illegal? No. People have a right to privacy and a right to free speech; so if you want to make a porn film, or you want to watch it without being harassed, you should be able to. But wouldn't we be better off if there was less porn?

This just sounds cypto-marxist, especially the last sentence of the first paragraph, about heartless business exploiting the poor to sell harmful stuff to the masses...

 

[Bjorn]

Very few acts effect ONLY ourselves; if we degrade ourselves, we degrade society and others as well.

Wouldn't you have to show that porn is degrading to make this a valid point?

 

[Ladyhawk]

Wouldn't you have to show that porn is degrading to make this a valid point?

Ok....at the high risk of getting my wings royally clipped here (since this appears to be a predominantly male audience on this thread and I'm probably well outnumbered) , I'm going to volunteer my humble opinion...

1. Porn can be degrading. I think it depends on the viewer and how he (or she) perceives it. If a man views porn and determines that all women exist to be treated as an object that lives solely for his gratification (because the girls in the porn flick sure seem happy that way ) then, yes, porn can certainly have a degrading effect on the women in his life. If, however, he can seperate the fantasy from the reality, there isn't any reason that the women in his life should experience any feelings of degradation or low self-esteem.

2. Porn isn't necessarily degrading to those who act in the films. They're paid for it, they know what they're getting into up front, it's a business deal and, to listen to the top stars, they seem to enjoy their work. What I might consider degrading, someone else may not.

3. Is porn morally wrong? Depends. Each person has to answer that for themselves. Typically, if I try to decide if something is immoral, I ask myself "who is getting hurt and how badly?"

Case 1: Guy watches porn (or Playboy or whatever), has his fantasy, functions normally in every way within his real relationships outside of the fantasy. He doesn't treat his wife/girlfriend like his own personal b*tch.
IMHO: no harm done. Nothing immoral.

Case 2: Guy watches porn. Guy rejects advances from wife/girlfriend in favor of porn and/or guy treats women abusively in an attempt to mirror his fantasy into real life.
IMHO: harm done. Help needed. Probably immoral since an innocent person is getting hurt.

There is no cut and dry with this issue. Yes, there are legitimate cases of porn addiction. Yes, it's far more accessible (via the Web) than ever before. But, one thing hasn't changed. People are still responsible for their own behavior. It is still up to each of us to do all things in moderation and to monitor how our behavior affects us as individuals and those we love.

Fair enough?

 

[toddjh]

Ok....at the high risk of getting my wings royally clipped here (since this appears to be a predominantly male audience on this thread and I'm probably well outnumbered) , I'm going to volunteer my humble opinion...

1. Porn can be degrading. I think it depends on the viewer and how he (or she) perceives it. If a man views porn and determines that all women exist to be treated as an object that lives solely for his gratification (because the girls in the porn flick sure seem happy that way ) then, yes, porn can certainly have a degrading effect on the women in his life. If, however, he can seperate the fantasy from the reality, there isn't any reason that the women in his life should experience any feelings of degradation or low self-esteem.

This argument applies just as easily to mainstream movies, video games, what have you, even in the same way (stereotypical portrayals of women, minorities, etc.).

2. Porn isn't necessarily degrading to those who act in the films. They're paid for it, they know what they're getting into up front, it's a business deal and, to listen to the top stars, they seem to enjoy their work. What I might consider degrading, someone else may not.

I would add that, if a person voluntarily chooses a line of work he or she considers degrading, that's their business and not something we should worry about. After all, they obviously considered it preferable to the other options, and who are we to second-guess their decisions?

3. Is porn morally wrong? Depends. Each person has to answer that for themselves. Typically, if I try to decide if something is immoral, I ask myself "who is getting hurt and how badly?"

Case 1: Guy watches porn (or Playboy or whatever), has his fantasy, functions normally in every way within his real relationships outside of the fantasy. He doesn't treat his wife/girlfriend like his own personal b*tch.
IMHO: no harm done. Nothing immoral.

Case 2: Guy watches porn. Guy rejects advances from wife/girlfriend in favor of porn and/or guy treats women abusively in an attempt to mirror his fantasy into real life.
IMHO: harm done. Help needed. Probably immoral since an innocent person is getting hurt.

In this situation, I would argue that it is the man in question, not the porn, which is causing the harm. If you can't separate fantasy from reality, or if you use fiction as a justification for acting like a jerk in real life, then porn is the least of your problems.

I'd also like to point out that porn is becoming increasingly more popular with women, thanks to better production values, abandonment of idiotic excuse-plots, and viagra (which allows porn producers to be more picky in who they can cast, so they don't have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find someone who is able to perform on demand).

Jeremy

 

[Cider]

People seem to be throwing a lot of terms around. When we're talking about "porn" are we only talking physically enacted films or still photographs? How about paintings and sketches from imagination? Is this still porn? Is it still degrading? If so, who to?

What about adult books? There are those that are directed at men and some that are directed at women, with very different writing styles and levels of explicitness. Does this still count as porn that should be banned?

My problem with the idea of all porn being considered wrong and something to be eradicated is that to follow it to it's extreme conclusion is to suggest that sexual fantasies are wrong. If being turned on by erotic situations in a book or film is wrong, why is it suddenly right to be turned on by the exactly same situaution but without the stimulii?

And here we're on familiar ground. Misogynists and religious leaders have been telling women for years to feel guilty for enjoying their sexuality and sex.

And yet some pornography is disturbing to me. I'm also sure that there are many people that are being exploited in the sex industry. To me the whole area is a grey and full of potholes. And I don't believe that there can be any absolutes that everyone will agree on. Kind of like everything else, really.

 

[Bjorn]

1. Porn can be degrading. I think it depends on the viewer and how he (or she) perceives it. If a man views porn and determines that all women exist to be treated as an object that lives solely for his gratification (because the girls in the porn flick sure seem happy that way ) then, yes, porn can certainly have a degrading effect on the women in his life. If, however, he can seperate the fantasy from the reality, there isn't any reason that the women in his life should experience any feelings of degradation or low self-esteem.

Or the man in her life. My wife certainly enjoys porn, although we might disagree which scenes are the best.

What I might consider degrading, someone else may not.

This is, IMHO, the point. Oral sex, quite common today(?), was once considered bad enough to be prohibited.

Typically, if I try to decide if something is immoral, I ask myself "who is getting hurt and how badly?"

And the answers when it comes to porn might be 'no one' and 'not at all' (although this is the point where I have most doubts - are we really sure that all 'actors' had a real choice?).

Case 1: Guy watches porn (or Playboy or whatever), has his fantasy, functions normally in every way within his real relationships outside of the fantasy. He doesn't treat his wife/girlfriend like his own personal b*tch.
IMHO: no harm done. Nothing immoral.

Case 2: Guy watches porn. Guy rejects advances from wife/girlfriend in favor of porn and/or guy treats women abusively in an attempt to mirror his fantasy into real life.
IMHO: harm done. Help needed. Probably immoral since an innocent person is getting hurt.

Considering the number of people watching porn, don't you think that most of them (guys or girls) belong in category one?

Fair enough?

Yes.

 

[Ladyhawk]

In this situation, I would argue that it is the man in question, not the porn, which is causing the harm. If you can't separate fantasy from reality, or if you use fiction as a justification for acting like a jerk in real life, then porn is the least of your problems.

I can meet you halfway on that one, Jeremy. I think it's a 50/50. That is, I don't think porn has done anything positive (over its history) to contribute to a positive outlook about women for other than sexual exploitation. It does tend to contribute to the notion that women who say no mean yes, women like to be manhandled, talked down to all the time, etc. etc. And, let's keep in mind that men are exposed to porn pretty early in life, as young teenagers. At that age, he is impressionable. And if the first impression he has of a sexual encounter is based on something he sees in a porn flick, well, doesn't it go to follow that a young man carries those images into real life with him, not realizing that there is any difference? Still, I agree with you that each man has to be his own moral compass...with this or any other social issue.

I'd also like to point out that porn is becoming increasingly more popular with women, thanks to better production values, abandonment of idiotic excuse-plots, and viagra (which allows porn producers to be more picky in who they can cast, so they don't have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find someone who is able to perform on demand).

Valid point, but I doubt that porn will ever have the pentration (pardon the pun) in the female market that it does in the male market. That is, if the porn industry had to survive on sales to women alone, they'd fold . Women aren't visually stimulated the way men are ,so porn has less to offer to women. But, I think it's great (and a long time overdue) that the industry is trying to market something appealing to women.

 

[Ladyhawk]

And the answers when it comes to porn might be 'no one' and 'not at all' (although this is the point where I have most doubts - are we really sure that all 'actors' had a real choice?).

Agreed but, to keep the discussion on this topic simple, can we just resign it to the presumption that most actors do so willingly?

Considering the number of people watching porn, don't you think that most of them (guys or girls) belong in category one?

Yes, I DO think most fall into category one which is exactly why I called out 2 scenarios. My point is that viewing porn, while most of the time is probably not an immoral act, still has the potential of being an immoral act. Again, it goes to a person's willingness to recognize that porn is fantasy; intended to supplement a person's sexual interraction with another person; not replace it.

Which brings me to another question: do you suppose porn addiction has actually increased in recent years or is it one of those things that has always been around and just hasn't gotten a lot of attention?

 

[toddjh]

I can meet you halfway on that one, Jeremy. I think it's a 50/50. That is, I don't think porn has done anything positive (over its history) to contribute to a positive outlook about women for other than sexual exploitation. It does tend to contribute to the notion that women who say no mean yes, women like to be manhandled, talked down to all the time, etc. etc.

I wonder if there's any evidence on whether that actually contributes to real-world problems? (I'm not saying there isn't; I really do wonder). Because I can see a flip side: that porn provides an outlet for these fantasies, which might otherwise be held inside until they spill over into real life, one way or another.

History has shown that male sexual frustration is strongly correlated with violence, both individually and collectively. It's such a complicated issue that I'm not surprised if some "solutions" might appear counterintuitive.

And, let's keep in mind that men are exposed to porn pretty early in life, as young teenagers. At that age, he is impressionable. And if the first impression he has of a sexual encounter is based on something he sees in a porn flick, well, doesn't it go to follow that a young man carries those images into real life with him, not realizing that there is any difference?

This is essentially the argument which is popular lately in trying to ban violent movies and video games. If a guy tries to be "porn-like" in his first sexual encounters with women, then (assuming porn hasn't turned him into an outright rapist) I predict he's going to get shot down a lot until he changes his tune. I can see how this sort of thing might be seriously annoying to women, but I don't see it as the basis of a major social problem.

Jeremy

 

[Ladyhawk]

This is essentially the argument which is popular lately in trying to ban violent movies and video games. If a guy tries to be "porn-like" in his first sexual encounters with women, then (assuming porn hasn't turned him into an outright rapist) I predict he's going to get shot down a lot until he changes his tune. I can see how this sort of thing might be seriously annoying to women, but I don't see it as the basis of a major social problem.

Jeremy

Yes, I was going to add that such an innocent young man would be corrected soon enough but I figured that was a given...

I don't see it as the basis of a "major social problem" either, to be honest. But, I do wish there would be more open communication about it between parents and their kids, (at the appropriate age) as well as between husbands and wives.

I have seen 2 marriages crippled or destroyed due to the husband's insistence (and probable addiction) to porn. Now, one could argue that, if the porn weren't there, there wouldn't be a problem. In that case, I believe as I think you do, that these men would have simply turned their sexual frustrations toward other activities which may or may not have been harmless.

 

[toddjh]

I don't see it as the basis of a "major social problem" either, to be honest. But, I do wish there would be more open communication about it between parents and their kids, (at the appropriate age) as well as between husbands and wives.

No argument there.

I have seen 2 marriages crippled or destroyed due to the husband's insistence (and probable addiction) to porn. Now, one could argue that, if the porn weren't there, there wouldn't be a problem. In that case, I believe as I think you do, that these men would have simply turned their sexual frustrations toward other activities which may or may not have been harmless.

Given the depressing statistics on cheating (by both genders, to be fair), I think you're right.

I know a couple who are having pretty serious porn-related issues, too. Porn addiction is certainly real, and potentially a serious problem, but I also think some women tend to be too inflexible about it (porn in general, not addiction). In moderation (which is the case with the couple I'm talking about -- we're talking a pay-per-view movie on cable every month or so), it's a harmless diversion, and I think the friction caused by it is due as much to the woman's irrational rejection of it as to the man's insistence on ignoring her objections.

Jeremy

 

[Ladyhawk]

I know a couple who are having pretty serious porn-related issues, too. Porn addiction is certainly real, and potentially a serious problem, but I also think some women tend to be too inflexible about it (porn in general, not addiction). In moderation (which is the case with the couple I'm talking about -- we're talking a pay-per-view movie on cable every month or so), it's a harmless diversion, and I think the friction caused by it is due as much to the woman's irrational rejection of it as to the man's insistence on ignoring her objections.

Jeremy

And there you have it! People have to talk about it with one another. They have to or somebody ends up feeling guilty or hurt or unwanted. Any man who believes a woman's rejection to porn is 'irrational' should consider that his woman may fear that he is irrationally rejecting her, too. Porn tends to tread hard on a woman's sexual confidence. His use of porn can make her feel undesirable, inadequate or unnecessary. It doesn't have to be that way, mind you, but in order to avoid mixed messages, couples need to talk openly about it.

I think, when push comes to shove, men and women each share a common trait: we each have a sexual ego or sense of sexual confidence, if you will and, it is very fragile. All it takes is just one condescending remark , look or act from one partner to render the other anxious, uncertain and/or disinterested for quite some time.

I think communication is key and is significant in helping to reduce the likelihood of misunderstanding or frustration when it comes to porn or any other sensitive issue in a relationship or marriage.

 

[kookbreaker]

Getting back to Dworkin.

Does anyone remember how she faked rape claims a few years back to get some attention for herself? Very telling behavior how someone who cries that so many things are the cause of, or are effectively rape then turns around and insults real rape victims by pulling such a stunt.

 

[Ladyhawk]

Getting back to Dworkin.

Does anyone remember how she faked rape claims a few years back to get some attention for herself? Very telling behavior how someone who cries that so many things are the cause of, or are effectively rape then turns around and insults real rape victims by pulling such a stunt.

Really? As I mentioned, I wasn't a devotee of Dworkin. I didn't know she existed until I heard she died....

Pretty desperate act, that. Maybe I'll locate some material on her and give it a glance. Sounds like she was a fun act....

 

[Skeptic]

Really? As I mentioned, I wasn't a devotee of Dworkin. I didn't know she existed until I heard she died....

Pretty desperate act, that. Maybe I'll locate some material on her and give it a glance. Sounds like she was a fun act....

Apparently she was on a trip to Europe and, when back in the USA, claimed she was raped in her hotel room. This claim backfired when it turned out she hadn't bothered to report this "rape" to the authorities at the time. (I am quoting from memory here, so I might be wrong.)

 

[kookbreaker]

Really? As I mentioned, I wasn't a devotee of Dworkin. I didn't know she existed until I heard she died....

Pretty desperate act, that. Maybe I'll locate some material on her and give it a glance. Sounds like she was a fun act....

Here is probably the most sympathetic accounting of her telling tales you may find.

Dworkin also claimed all kinds of abuse and claimed to have been a prostitute at one point in her life. It seems more likely that these may also have been delusions of suffering.