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Andrea Dworkin is dead

It's a job. The actors are paid, and therefore they are receiving financial benefit. They choose to do the work, and are perfectly able to seek other work if they dislike it.

Quite right. But it is not really just a job, is it? You have sex with strangers for money. Except for the fact that the camera is there, it is in reality the same as prostitution.

I would say that the selling of sex is inherently degrading to both the seller and the buyer. At least in the vast majority of cases.

Sordid? Your feelings. Not necessarily theirs.

So what? The question is, whether porn is in fact sordid or not: whether I, or they, are correct.

If you look up "sordid" in the OED, you will find many definitions of the word. Many of them describe porn perfectly: "Dirty or sluttish in habits or appearance"; "Of a low, mean, or despicable character"; "marked by or proceeding from ignoble motives, esp. of self-interest or monetary gain."; "Lacking in refinement; low, coarse, rough"; "influenced only by material considerations"; and so on. When so many descriptions of the word fit so well with what porn is like, calling it "sordid" is perfectly justified. If porn is NOT "sordid", what is?

The fact that sordid persons might deny what they are doing is sordid is no refutation. Using this "logic", EVERY (negative) adjective whatever that can apply to human action has no meaning or can never be used "correctly", since it is always possible that womever is behaving evily / sordidly / meanly / selfishly / whatever bad thing-ly will deny that they are "really" like that.

Why would we be? If you don't watch porn, then how can its prevalence or rarity affect you in any way?

If you don't commit suicide yourself, how can the proliferation of suicide cults affect you in any way? If you are not a fundamentalist christian, how can the growing number of fundamentalists affect you in any way? If you aren't overweight, how can the growing number of fat people affect you in any way? If you don't drink, how can the growing number of drunks affect you in any way? Or (Godwin Alert) if you are not a jew, how does the persecution of them affect you in any way?

Well, perphaps it does not affect you directly, but--as in these cases--there might be a serious negative affect on society as a whole; such as the cheapening and commericalization of relations and love.
 
aerocontrols said:
They're dworkin weird, man. A couple of piercings can be ok, but I can totally do without hte tattoos.
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That's OK, I was never one to share anyway... :D
 
Skeptic said:
Quite right. But it is not really just a job, is it? You have sex with strangers for money. Except for the fact that the camera is there, it is in reality the same as prostitution.
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I don't have a problem with prostitution either.

And who says they are strangers? It's not that big an industry. I'm sure people get to know each other, and meet repeatedly during different projects. It IS just a job to the people doing it. You may feel differently, but then, you're not the one doing it. I can't imagine anyone wanting to be dentist, and messing around inside people's mouths all day. But to them, it's just a job.


I would say that the selling of sex is inherently degrading to both the seller and the buyer. At least in the vast majority of cases.
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That's your feeling on the matter, and that's why you don't do that sort of work. Nice for you. But that's not how they feel about it. Degradation is in the eye of the beholder. I found it degrading when I worked in retail, to have to lean on people to get them to open charge accounts. So I gave up that line of work. Other people don't have a problem with it.


So what? The question is, whether porn is in fact sordid or not: whether I, or they, are correct.

If you look up "sordid" in the OED, you will find many definitions of the word. Many of them describe porn perfectly: "Dirty or sluttish in habits or appearance"; "Of a low, mean, or despicable character"; "marked by or proceeding from ignoble motives, esp. of self-interest or monetary gain."; "Lacking in refinement; low, coarse, rough"; "influenced only by material considerations"; and so on. When so many descriptions of the word fit so well with what porn is like, calling it "sordid" is perfectly justified. If porn is NOT "sordid", what is?
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Dictionaries define words, but they don't control attitudes. If you're going to feel about something a certain way, it doesn't matter what words you use. You don't like the porn industry. Nice for you. I don't like the clergy. You think the word "sordid" fits because it describes how you feel about the industry. I don't think it fits because I don't feel that way about it.


The fact that sordid persons might deny what they are doing is sordid is no refutation. Using this "logic", EVERY (negative) adjective whatever that can apply to human action has no meaning or can never be used "correctly", since it is always possible that womever is behaving evily / sordidly / meanly / selfishly / whatever bad thing-ly will deny that they are "really" like that.
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And the fact that you call people something doesn't make them so. Using that "logic", you can call anyone anything then say their in denial when they deny it!




If you don't commit suicide yourself, how can the proliferation of suicide cults affect you in any way? If you are not a fundamentalist christian, how can the growing number of fundamentalists affect you in any way? If you aren't overweight, how can the growing number of fat people affect you in any way? If you don't drink, how can the growing number of drunks affect you in any way? Or (Godwin Alert) if you are not a jew, how does the persecution of them affect you in any way?
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If you dislike a television show, do you change the channel, or organize a letter-writing campaign to have it banned from the air? If you dislike seafood, do you picket the shrimping boats? If you don't like Green Day, do you buy and burn their albums?


Well, perphaps it does not affect you directly, but--as in these cases--there might be a serious negative affect on society as a whole; such as the cheapening and commericalization of relations and love.
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The serious negative effect on society as a whole is a damn hard thing to prove. It relies on YOUR judgment of what's good and bad, and YOUR interpretation of how something like an industry affects society, and to what degree. As for the "cheapening and commercialization of relations and love", that's a pretty broad and purely personal view of matters. Does a lace teddy coarsen the divine act of lovemaking? How about silk sheets? How about adult toys?

It's all opinion and personal feelings. You have yours, I have mine, everyone has their own. That's fine. Feel as you like. But don't try to impose your feelings on other people. It's not going to work.
 
I would say that the selling of sex is inherently degrading to both the seller and the buyer. At least in the vast majority of cases.
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I've said for years that's why I object to marraige. Bringing financial considerations into a sexual relationship is just degrading to both parties. Trading sexual duties and child rearing for financial stability is just wrong.

;)
 
Skeptic said:
Quite right. But it is not really just a job, is it? You have sex with strangers for money. Except for the fact that the camera is there, it is in reality the same as prostitution.
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Agreed that it's equivalent to prostitution, but disagreed that that somehow makes it not "just a job." I take it you don't know any sex workers personally?

I would say that the selling of sex is inherently degrading to both the seller and the buyer. At least in the vast majority of cases.
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Why? It seems to me that what you're saying is that your opinion of people who buy or sell sex is low. That's fine; you're entitled to your opinion, but what that has to do with whether it's "degrading" is a mystery to me. Don't the people involved get a say in it? If the seller is satisfied with it, and the buyer is satisfied with it, what gives you the right to lord over them both and righteously declare that it is "degrading" and must be stopped?

If you look up "sordid" in the OED, you will find many definitions of the word. Many of them describe porn perfectly: "Dirty or sluttish in habits or appearance"
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Amen!

"Of a low, mean, or despicable character"
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Here you lose me. What exactly is "despicable" about a voluntary, legal business arrangement that everybody finds satisfactory?

"marked by or proceeding from ignoble motives, esp. of self-interest or monetary gain."
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Just about every single job in the civilized world is "sordid," then.

"Lacking in refinement; low, coarse, rough"
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Dude, you're watching the wrong porn. Or maybe I am -- coarse and rough are hot!

Well, perphaps it does not affect you directly, but--as in these cases--there might be a serious negative affect on society as a whole; such as the cheapening and commericalization of relations and love.
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Now you're making the exact same argument as the anti-gay marriage nuts: how does porn "cheapen and commercialize relations and love" any more than two dudes getting hitched "attacks the sanctity of marriage?" If people make or watch porn, what the hell does that have to do with any of your relationships? Does that make you love your partner less? Does the fact that some people **** for money cheapen the intimacy you have with someone you love?

It's their business, not yours. Keep your big nose out of it.

Jeremy
 
Skeptic said:

Quite right. But it is not really just a job, is it? You have sex with strangers for money. Except for the fact that the camera is there, it is in reality the same as prostitution.

I would say that the selling of sex is inherently degrading to both the seller and the buyer. At least in the vast majority of cases.
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It is just a job, some like it, some hate it but it's just a job. One can say the same thing about a janitor or garbage man. Except I doubt you'll find the same percentage of people who enjoy their job.

Another thing about porno is women are paid significantly more in that industry than men are.

And finally I don't feel degraded by watching porn. The only time I feel degraded is when I watch Reality TV or accidently switch to the Lifetime channel, then I really feel ashamed.
 
Grammatron said:
Another thing about porno is women are paid significantly more in that industry than men are.
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In straight porn, maybe.

Hence the "gay for pay" male porn stars. They make more than the guys who only do straight porn, and more than the women, too. I don't know what the pay scale for lesbian porn is, but since so much straight porn seems to involve girl-on-girl action, it seems likely to be the same pay as hetero porn.
 
TragicMonkey said:
In straight porn, maybe.

Hence the "gay for pay" male porn stars. They make more than the guys who only do straight porn, and more than the women, too. I don't know what the pay scale for lesbian porn is, but since so much straight porn seems to involve girl-on-girl action, it seems likely to be the same pay as hetero porn.
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What percentage of porn is gay? I don't know, I would think very small percentage and not enough to offset the averages.
 
Grammatron said:
Another thing about porno is women are paid significantly more in that industry than men are.
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But the men usually have more (sorry) longevity. They can stay in the business for decades, wheras the women usually find reasons to leave before they start to show signs of age. Although admittedly there are some older female porn stars who've lasted a while.
 
Grammatron said:
What percentage of porn is gay? I don't know, I would think very small percentage and not enough to offset the averages.
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I don't know either. There may be a smaller audience, but that doesn't mean they don't consume a disproportionate amount of pornography. Subcultures aren't just a reflection of the main culture, with a different direction. It might be that acceptance of an alternative sexuality leads to the breaking down of other taboos and prudishness. (This is the theory often suggested to explain the supposed greater proportion of BDSM enthusiasts among gays as opposed to straights.)

I'm willing to bet that the percentages of population-to-porn are different along sexuality lines. Suppose gays are the 2% of the population some say. They might have 15% of the total pornography market, though. And there are economic advantages to occupying a niche market.
 
Grammatron said:
What percentage of porn is gay? I don't know, I would think very small percentage and not enough to offset the averages.
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I hate the way guys get to own the word 'gay'.

Lesbians are gay too, dammit!
 
I um, thought she was the lady who drowned her kids in the bathtub.

But yeah... I know who she is now. She's the uber misanthrope who likens the act of reproduction to rape and killing.

I always wondered how we should reproduce in her world view.
 
Mmmm hmmm... I see... and just how long has zis obsession with the gay gentlemen and their activities been troubling to you?


Und why exactly do you think that is?


(Puffs on pipe and makes a few notes....)

:p
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
Ron Jeremy?
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Am I the only one who thinks he's kinda cute?

Somebody should start a porn thread. Somebody else, that is.

Jeremy
 
This

What I remember was that she believed that even consentual sex was a sexual assault on a woman. To me that seemed so old school - that sex is something a man does to a woman. The argument is that it's an aggressive act because the man is "penetrating" the woman. One could just as easily argue that the woman is enveloping the man.
 
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