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Andrea Dworkin is dead

Mycroft

High Priest of Ed
Mycroft
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Sep 10, 2003
Messages
20,501
Andrea Dworkin, the American radical feminist who has died aged 58, campaigned ferociously against pornography and the abuse of women for almost 40 years; the author of several controversial feminist texts, she dismissed men as moral cretins, said that seduction was hard to distinguish from rape, and regarded pornography as akin to terrorism.

Although she was lauded by some of her fellow feminists, many felt that her inflammatory writing (and possibly her appearance) did little for the cause; to Dworkin, men were, at best, oafish misogynists, while most were rapists for whom the primary sexual motive was killing.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...1.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/04/13/ixportal.html

Whatever you feel about her, she was an influental figure in American politics.

:alc:
 
Thanks, Mycroft. I needed some cheering up.

I saw her live once. A more florid example of cluster B personality disorders I have never encountered.

I notice that the telegraph made the error of calling her a radical feminist. This is a misnomer. She was pretty much the opposite of a radical feminist, except in the sense that "radical" is sometimes used to mean "deeply disturbed."
 
Mycroft said:
Whatever you feel about her, she was an influental figure in American politics.
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Cool, if you can't say something nice...

to Dworkin, men were, at best, oafish misogynists, while most were rapists for whom the primary sexual motive was killing.
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"A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bycicle" --Gloria Steinem

:alc:
 
Here is an interesting take on Andrea Dworkin's impact.

I gather that the author is some sort of conservative commentator.

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"By Maggie Gallagher

Andrea Dworkin died this week.

Maybe the name means nothing to you, but for women of a certain age, Andrea Dworkin's very name is "fighting words." A fiercely radical feminist, she (along with law professor Catherine Mackinnon) pioneered a blistering feminist attack on pornography and male sexuality in general. As a former battered wife, she fused these concerns with a broadside against male violence against women. Think "intercourse is rape," and you are thinking vintage Dworkin....

...According to Reuters, "Dworkin is survived by her husband, John Stoltenberg, also a feminist activist and author." ...."
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...7&u=/ucmg/20050412/cm_ucmg/andreadworkinandme
 
Re: Re: Re: Andrea Dworkin is dead

RandFan said:
Michael Badnarik? Who?
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Badnarik I know, this man hating psycho who is now dead? Who the hell was she? As far as I am concerned anyone who hates the opposite gender shouldn't be missed. Good bye whoever you were, too bad you had to live as a psycho.

I read a book once written by some dumb woman, Faluto, Faludo or something her name was, I think. Called "Backlash". I thought she was a fruit loop, but I guess on a relative scale some are fruitier than others.

This **** should have died out in the 50s
 
...According to Reuters, "Dworkin is survived by her husband, John Stoltenberg, also a feminist activist and author." ...."
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Sheesh! Could you imagine an intimate evening between those two?

"Say honey, feeling frisky?"

"RAPE! RAPE! RAAAAAAAAPE!"

"Ok... Ok... I guess I'm on my own tonight. Where's the Astro-Glide and this month's Penthouse?"

"PENTHOUSE??? EXPLOITATION! DEGREDATION!!!!"

Did anyone, outside of the women's studies department, take this witch seriously?
 
Mycroft said:
Whatever you feel about her, she was an influental figure in American politics.
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Well, yes, she really caused an enormous backlash and harm to feminism in general, didn't she, now?
 
Dworkin…has turned a garish history of mental instability into feminist grand opera. She publicly boasts of her bizarre multiple rapes, assaults, beatings, breakdowns and tacky trauma, as if her inability to cope with life were the patriarchy's fault rather than her own. Dworkin's shrill, kvetching, solipsistic prose has a sloppy, squalling infantilism.

--Cammile Paglia
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Paglia, now there is a woman. She loves and admires men AND she is a lesbian.

BTW, Paglia is one of a number of Sex-positive Feminists. Count me a feminist.

Sex-positive feminism

Sex-positive feminism, also known as pro-sex feminism, is a movement that was formed in the 1980s. It formed in response to efforts by Catharine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin (amongst others), to censor pornography and otherwise restrict various forms of sexual expression that MacKinnon and Dworkin felt were oppressive to women. The founders of sex-positive feminism include Susie Bright and Betty Dodson. At a root of this movement is a strong belief in sexual freedom. It also opposes any legal or social efforts to control sexual activities between any number of consenting adults. Sex-positive feminism opposes these efforts whether they are initiated by the government, social conservatives, other feminists, or any social force.

Sex-positive feminism values female sexual gratification. Freedom of expression, narcissism, and scopophilia are all valued as potential methods by which women may gain sexual gratification. Pornography, exhibitionism, and prostitution are all acceptable to sexually-liberal feminists so long as certain standards are maintained. These standards include the health and safety of participants; as well as consent and respect existing between participants. Sex-positive feminism is broadly connected with the sex-positive movement, a movement which advocates sex education and safer sex as part of its campaign.

All pro-sex feminists view radical feminism as potentially causing women to feel guilt. For pro-sex feminists this guilt leads to sexual repression and negative self-imagery. Radical feminism is seen as a cause of problems for women such as eating disorders, and anorgasmia (the pathological inability to experience orgasm). In the pro-sex feminist view, radical feminism's censorship of consensually-produced pornography is patriarchal.
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Paglia, now there is a woman. She loves and admires men AND she is a lesbian.
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And she digs porn. Now that is hot.

Oh wow, we are moral cretins.

According to Reuters, "Dworkin is survived by her husband, John Stoltenberg, also a feminist activist and author
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That guy survived her in the same way that rock climbing guy survived by cutting off his own hand.
 
The problem with Dworkin, like with many of those who know THE TRUTH(tm), is that she was a Manichean: she just KNEW that all men are violent rapists, and this "insight" allowed he to see beyond misleading appearances (such as, for instance, that only a tiny minority of men are rapists) and "prove" in various ways that all men are, too, violent rapists.

In her case, the "proof" was by claiming that a). All penetrative sex is violent, and b). All men who ever saw a porn film are rapists. Presto! You have just raised the percentage of "violent rapists" among men to 90% or higher.

She hurt the feminist cause, since her fanaticism made feminists in general look silly: in the same way that, for instance, Al Sharpton is hurting the black cause. When "feminist" means "300-pound lesbian ex-prostitute who thinks all sex is rape" (like Dworkin), it is no surprise many women think they can do without it.

This does not, however, necessarily mean that everything she considered THE TRUTH(tm) is necessarily not true. Her point about porn and prostitution--that it is degrading and exploitive and not, in reality, neutral or even positive "liberation"--is true, rather obviously so.

Of course, being a Manichean, for her this was a justification for making porn and prostitution illegal and violating everybody's rights to privacy, freedom of speech, and so on. After all, for a Manichean, everybody who disagrees with her is EVIL AND BAD and has no rights anyway. But this doesn't distract from her point.
 
I was a freshman at the U of M in fall of 1983. I wasn't there long, but long enough to grow a huge disliking of Dworkin. IIRC, her group vandalized or sprayed graphiti or whatever on the U of M bookstore Playboy, etc. collection.

I thought I was somewhat liberal back then. I can't see how Dworkin helped any liberal causes by alienating so many centrist-liberals. She was wacky.
 
Skeptic said:
Her point about porn and prostitution--that it is degrading and exploitive and not, in reality, neutral or even positive "liberation"--is true, rather obviously so.
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Degrading? That would depend on the individual, I think. I personally know a couple sex workers who don't consider it degrading in the least, though I am sure there are many who do. Likewise, I've known waitresses and housekeepers who consider their work degrading, too.

But exploitative? There I strongly disagree. When you suspect exploitation, just look at which direction the money is flowing, and in whose g-string it ends up.

Jeremy
 
Skeptic said:
Her point about porn and prostitution--that it is degrading and exploitive and not, in reality, neutral or even positive "liberation"--is true, rather obviously so.
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Derailing again: You certainly don't think all porn is degrading and exploitive, do you?
 
Bjorn said:
Derailing again: You certainly don't think all porn is degrading and exploitive, do you?
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OK, then get back on topic...

Provide us with an example of porn that *Dworkin* said was not degrading.
 
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