Ancient conspiracy to hide the Truth about Jesus Christ?

[SpuriusMaximus]

You were robbed. I think that Allegro was confusing Jesus with Santa Claus - a pardonable error. Santa wears shroom-coloured red and white clothing.

...only since the 20'th century, and for reasons which have nothing to do with shrooms.

He comes from north Siberia or Lapland where mushroom consumption is traditional (grapes and barley don't grow there, so no wine or beer was to be had) which we know because he travels on a sledge pulled by flying reindeer. Sometimes mushrooms were fed to reindeer, and shamans would then drink their urine, after which they "flew".

...only in Alaska, so it would have NOTHING to do with the supposed origins of Santa Claus in Lapland.

And here's why: the Amanitas on this continent produce dellirium and all, but you'll (likely) be alive at the end of it. The ones on the other side of the straight are highly poisonous. HOWEVER, some smart cookies noticed that the reindeer's system seems to process the poison all right, and piss the hallucinogen more or less intact and cleaned of the poison.

Basically on that side, you need to filter it through a reindeer, because filtering is what it is. On our side there was no reason to do something that stupid, unless you have some deer urine fetish. On this side, if you had some amanitas and wanted to trip balls on amanitas, you could simply eat them as they were. Adding a reindeer in the mix would be just a pointless waste of drugs in the process.

And Santa enters houses through the chimney, which was customary in ancient Siberian dwellings which were entered through the smoke hole by means of a ladder.

I find that dubious too, but wth, the more important part is that that part has nothing to do with shrooms any more.

Short version: that whole story is just a case of the more... intellectually-challenged drug-users try to redefine themselves as "shamans" (a word which actually designed something more complex and with more duties to the community than "that guy who trips balls and talks nonsense") and to redefine drugs as some kind of essential ingredient of everything in human history and used by everyone. Same as idiot fundies try to find justification in basically "look how many people in history believed it, it must be right!", a bunch of drug users figured out they can do the same by inserting drugs into every frikken thing in history. And yes, sometimes they'll produce books with such retarded claims, which other people will lap up just because they say what they want to hear. It has nothing to do with actual history or actual study of ancient myths, it's just part propaganda and part circle-jerk reassuring each other that their delusions are ok. But YOU are smarter than that, if I'm any judge. There's no reason to repeat Limbo-class nonsense like that.

 

[joseph8th]

Amanitas are so damn uncomfortable however compared to the psiolocybin containing mushrooms which generally offer euphoric transcendent experience. Amanita is more deliriant than hallucinogen, with cramping and extreme nausea often experienced.

That depends on both the skill of the alchemist and the quality/maturity of the shroom. In this day and age, there's no excuse not to use a dehydrator to convert ibotenic acid to muscimol. However, since this happens by a loss of carbon molecules, it's critical NOT to consume any carbonated beverage (i.e., beer, soda) or high-carbon foods, after. Temperature also plays a factor in the & of ibotenic acid that is 'transmuted', as it were.

Try making 'new wine' from water or grape juice by just crumbling DRIED Amanitas in and letting it steep overnight. You, too, can perform miracles!

 

[joseph8th]

You were robbed. I think that Allegro was confusing Jesus with Santa Claus - a pardonable error.

Sure! Der Fliegenpilz are still a common holiday decoration in Germanic Xmas traditions. I have a set of hand-painted wooden Amanita Xmas-tree baubles ordered from Germany. Heheh.... Hoffman also covered this ground via an interview with of all people his German mother.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

I'm not sure how to go about that. I've seen a few posts by Hans Musterman where he makes a good case for St Paul being Schitzophrenic. But most ancient holy teachings are so adulterated by traditions and cross cultural influences that pinpointing a single individual or experience in order to analyse it would be pretty much impossible.

Maybe we can look at something like the prophecies of Ezekial and say that they are the kinds of hallucinations that people have when suffering from dehydration and sunstroke or something, but believers will just say "But that is what a true vision from God looks like!". How do we prove otherwise?

I don't think I want to accept that kind of reversal of the burden of proof in the first place.

All the "proof" I need is that basically if a known cause X is the simplest explanation for Y, and known to be the cause of Y in every single case we could actually study, then the Occam-conform assumption is that yet another case of Y was caused by X too. Anyone claiming that just in one unverifiable case or a handful of unverifiable cases it was otherwise, has the burden of proof to show what other supportable circumstances make the simpler explanation insufficient. It's not my job to disprove the exception, it's his to support it.

If apples under an apple tree are perfectly well explained by gravity, then if I find an apple under my apple tree, then the Occam-conform explanation is that it fell from the tree. Imagine I came to you with a story like "no, duude, totally now THIS apple. See, for this the Illuminati hired a secret clan of Japanese ninjas to buy an identical apple from Japan, fly with it to Germany, and place it under my tree as a warning that they're onto me. They're sneaky like that, dude. And I know that because the great invisible cat told me so." Would you see any point in trying to disprove that my apple is flown from Japan? Or would you take the saner approach of asking me to support that crazy story?

 

[joseph8th]

"What is 'Truth'?"

*washes hands*

'Truth' is tongue-in-cheek, along with the rest of the sensationalistic thread title...

 

[joseph8th]

Short version: that whole story is just a case of the more... intellectually-challenged drug-users try to redefine themselves as "shamans" (a word which actually designed something more complex and with more duties to the community than "that guy who trips balls and talks nonsense") and to redefine drugs as some kind of essential ingredient of everything in human history and used by everyone.

Heheh... cool yer jets, there, Mon Capitan. Wheeee!! But it's FUN! So serious. In my case at least, not a drug-user, merely a writer with a provocative tale to spin, so if it's no skin off yer nose, feel free to eviscerate the theory in all its components without, please, lumping me in with the poncho-wearing crowd. Ruck & Hoffman, at least, aren't users either. (Ruck's an old fart and Hoffman's oddly square.)

In fact, that's just the same tired dismissal they've been getting since the '70s, when academia turned its back on Allegro (and via Allegro, Wasson) without a second glance. Their allies have been trying to escape that stereotype ever since. It is simply assumed, as you have, that they just want to eat drugs, when in fact they were and are big fat squares, most of whom find it offensive that people today still take the drug-induced hallucinations of mystics seriously. Far from taking these visions seriously, they nonetheless take seriously the profound influence that tripping Kings and Priests have had on the course of history.

 

[joseph8th]

RE Occam's razor... Hans, I agree. But that means it's a monumental project, given the size, age, and noise of the inputs. One example, i.e., Ezekiel would never do. To make a complete argument would mean applying Occam's or another acceptable dialectic method appropriately across the board. It would have to answer every argument satisfactorily, and have at least as much supporting evidence as the given x in X. to complete replace what amounts to the history of Christianity. Naturally any such alternate would have its detractors, even if it was correct. NOT that it's correct... but IF it was, the burden of proof would be monstrous.

So... yup. I'd say that's fair.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

There was an air of mystery about the mass in the early church.

The Mass (or Liturgy) of the Catechumens is an ancient title for the first half of the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox worship service known as the Mass or Divine Liturgy. This part of the Mass is now referred to by the Catholic Church as the Liturgy of the Word. It was originally called the Mass of the Catechumens, because the Catechumens, or candidates for Baptism, were required to leave the ceremony before the beginning of the Liturgy of the Eucharist, or Mass, proper.

Point taken, but a two tiered system, which really boils down to full members vs those who haven't yet accepted the EULA , isn't coming even close to what proper mystery cults had. They could easily have a dozen degrees of initiation even after you became a member, from fresh novice to some form of guru.

As a practical example, Mithranism had SEVEN starting from Corax (lowest newbies) and ending with Pater (head of the coven pretty much). And that's just within the small group of people that formed a congregation. Basically you'd have a dozen or two dozen people meeting in a small basement, and those would already be divided into seven degrees of initiation

In fact according to one author, those can't be all degrees, because only 14% or so of the names we have from such communities have an initiation degree listed. So it's possible that they actually had at least 8 tiers among members, including the larger group of members without a title and presumably least initiated, and those 7 titles forming the tiers among the already initiated (to various degrees.)

Really, it's like having a WoW guild with two dozen members and 7 ranks of guild officers. Well, if you add having to learn some secret nonsense to be even eligible for the next rank

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Heheh... cool yer jets, there, Mon Capitan. Wheeee!! But it's FUN! So serious. In my case at least, not a drug-user, merely a writer with a provocative tale to spin, so if it's no skin off yer nose, feel free to eviscerate the theory in all its components without, please, lumping me in with the poncho-wearing crowd. Ruck & Hoffman, at least, aren't users either. (Ruck's an old fart and Hoffman's oddly square.)

However, that wasn't in answer to you. It's old hat even on this board, and we already have a champion of it who's a self-confessed *ahem* "shaman".

 

[joseph8th]

In fact according to one author, those can't be all degrees, because only 14% or so of the names we have from such communities have an initiation degree listed.

Right... Most of the Mithraeum are pretty small, but reportedly practiced by invited nobility, further limiting the pool. This was per norm for Rome, though, even when Mithraism wasn't the royal religion, there was almost always a separate public religion... Sol Invictus was freq. paired w/Mitra and appears in art w/Mitra and provided the model for Christianity in Constantine's legend of the sword in the sun.

That Xtianity replaced Sol Invictus as the public religion of ruling families of Rome until the 7th c. borne out by evidence and not terribly provocative in that we know there were pagan holdouts, and other forces of history overtook any influence Mithraism might've had on that era. That doesn't change the historic influences common to both Mithraism and Christianity, however, both of which started in Rome's shadow in the Levant in the 1st c. CE, early enough to comprise a basis to explain some uncanny similarities between certain 'gnostic' myths of Christ and Mithras (and Attis, Osiris, etc.). Certainly the alchemical phoenix supplied an early metaphor even for Clement. If that requires leaving the uncomfortable confines of Biblical canon, sobeit, since it was arbitrary and unrepresentative limitation to begin with.

And both Mithraism and Xtianity found home in Alexandria, where Hermeticism was already hundreds of years old, far more widespread, and influential (though on the wane as a religion, by 1st c.). It would be dismissive not to reconsider the era, keeping a wary eye on Hermeticism...

 

[joseph8th]

However, that wasn't in answer to you. It's old hat even on this board, and we already have a champion of it who's a self-confessed *ahem* "shaman".

Gotcha. Thx for clarifying.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Right... Most of the Mithraeum are pretty small, but reportedly practiced by invited nobility, further limiting the pool. This was per norm for Rome, though, even when Mithraism wasn't the royal religion, there was almost always a separate public religion...

I guess I should have been clearer there. I'm not saying that 14% of the total population had mithranic initiation titles. I'm saying that out of the list of mithranists, only about 14% of them actually have one of the 7 initiation titles or signs (planets) listed.

Which leaves room for speculation as to WTH was with the other 86% or so, which were nominally followers of Mithras, but don't list an initiation rank. There is a possibility that they just chose not to use their title, but there is also a distinct possibility that 86% of the Mithranists just didn't have one of those 7 ranks, and effectively formed an 8'th rank: the uninitiated.

Sol Invictus was freq. paired w/Mitra and appears in art w/Mitra and provided the model for Christianity in Constantine's legend of the sword in the sun.

Well, yeah, Christianity plundered everyone else's myths, legends, special days, etc, with a vengeance

That Xtianity replaced Sol Invictus as the public religion of ruling families of Rome until the 7th c. borne out by evidence and not terribly provocative in that we know there were pagan holdouts, and other forces of history overtook any influence Mithraism might've had on that era. That doesn't change the historic influences common to both Mithraism and Christianity, however, both of which started in Rome's shadow in the Levant in the 1st c. CE, early enough to comprise a basis to explain some uncanny similarities between certain 'gnostic' myths of Christ and Mithras (and Attis, Osiris, etc.).

Actually, in the case of Mithranism, it's kinda funny. It was presented as something coming from the East, but it seems to actually originate in Rome. If you trace the age of the cult places in different parts of the world, it slowly spreads from Rome and only reaches the eastern parts of the Empire much later, instead of going the other way around.

Basically some smart cookie just made up a religion with some oriental trappings

That said, yes, there were certain philosophical themes and influences that were current at the time, and it's only to be expected that you'd find them in both religions.

Certainly the alchemical phoenix supplied an early metaphor even for Clement. If that requires leaving the uncomfortable confines of Biblical canon, sobeit, since it was arbitrary and unrepresentative limitation to begin with.

The phoenix wasn't really limited to alchemy. It's a very old and very common legend.

Furthermore, you really didn't need to be initiated in anything to have heard of a Phoenix. Herodotus describes it as a real animal in Egypt in the 5'th century BC, and then lots of people start writing about it. E.g., even the poet Ovid wrote about phoenixes.

I'd say that any educated Greek or Roman would know what a phoenix is, even if they don't know jack squat about alchemy. In fact even its being used in such an epistle indicates that it's something the author would expect (justifiedly or not) the audience to be familiar with.

And both Mithraism and Xtianity found home in Alexandria, where Hermeticism was already hundreds of years old, far more widespread, and influential (though on the wane as a religion, by 1st c.). It would be dismissive not to reconsider the era, keeping a wary eye on Hermeticism...

Well, Alexandria was a major centre of culture and philosophy, so it's not unexpected.

Even more importantly, the quality of life in Egypt had taken a nose dive under the Romans. While production actually increased a lot, most people had become a lot poorer. Which influenced their religion too. Their old religion pretty much promised an afterlife that's more or less the same as the one you have on Earth. In ages where Ma'at dictated leaving the people enough after taxes to have an ok living, that wasn't a bad proposition. But in an age where most barely scraped a day to day existence after Rome and the local rich were done plundering them, getting the same in the afterlife wasn't that much of a reward for a good life. So a lot of Egyptians were in the market for a better fairy tale.

 

[Craig B]

Hans

You've wrecked my belief in Santa. From now on my Christmas stocking will be empty.

 

[Craig B]

And American poisonous mushrooms are different from European poisonous mushrooms. That's interesting. I didn't know about that.

 

[catsmate]

"What is 'Truth'?"

*washes hands*

It's a dominant quantum state.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Well, it's the kind of thing that happens on continents separated by sea. It's the same why they don't have kangaroos in China or Coca plants in Italy, I guess.

 

[Craig B]

Well, it's the kind of thing that happens on continents separated by sea. It's the same why they don't have kangaroos in China or Coca plants in Italy, I guess.

To be sure. But I didn't know this about the fungi, and it's interesting. Much of the flora and fauna of Europe and North America is pretty similar. The bit of Italy where I am located at present is inhabited by wolves, lynx and brown bears, just as Alaska is. Species of fungi have much the same appearance on both sides of the ocean, so it's interesting that their chemistry is different.

The difference between European and Australian fauna and flora is vastly greater than that which separates these transatlantic counterparts, so your invocation of kangaroos is perhaps unwarrented.

 

[Darth Rotor]

To our esteemed OP:

I made a joke a few years ago, on these very forums, that you can charactereize Christianity as the ultimate Jewish plot intended to undermine and destroy the pagan Roman Empire.

Seems to have worked, yes?

No mushrooms required, unless you are ordering a Pizza Fungi

 

[joseph8th]

And American poisonous mushrooms are different from European poisonous mushrooms. That's interesting. I didn't know about that.

Not that different, really. Some types of Amanita are more common in Europe than in the U.S., and vice versa (Pantherina more common in Europe, for instance), and perhaps the Amanita Phaloides is more common in Europe -- I don't know. But these regional differences are largely cosmetic. Spores can travel into the upper atmosphere, so most varieties of fungus that can grow in a place, do grow in a place.

In the case of A. Muscaria and A. Patherina, simply separating the cap & stem, and drying the mushroom but not the vulva in dehydrator will render it either inert (plop it on a pizza) or an inebriant. Hallucinations are reported to start after a 'heroic' dose. Most common effect reported is deep sleep and lucid dreams, or the opposite... bottomless reservoir of energy.

 

[joseph8th]

ooops... but avoid the A. Phalloides 'Death cap' at all costs. Nothing will save you from this:

It has no 'warts' and is obviously white. Can be easily confused, therefore, with A. Pantherina: