Anarchy in Seattle--Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

[Stout]

Starting with CHOP (formally CHAZ) the crap on Fox has been debunked, multiple times. There are no rapes there or black people shaking down white people, none of it. There's graffiti, otherwise stores have not been trashed or looted. A few people who live in the apartments are annoyed at lack of street access and a whole bunch more have said they prefer the Zone to the police tear gas and flash bangs.

That wasn't the content I was asking you to debunk, now was it ?

As a matter of fact..... find another source or they didn't happen.

Using that reasoning, there were no police shootings in the Seattle area so far in 2020 and the map linked to in post #179 is a fake. Well that was easy.

 

[Giordano]

No, I wasn't claiming that. I was making a statement of fact. That's it's extraordinarily easy to not be murdered by police. So easy that all of the people in this thread are doing it right now!

Really, though. Is that such a controversial statement? That it's easy to not get murdered by the police? I know we're not supposed to believe it, but there you have it.

It’s extraordinarily easy to not get murdered, period! There were approx. 15,500 murders in the USA in 2018. But by your logic, given there are 300 million people in the USA, the chance of being murdered is only 0.005%. Infinitesimal! I don’t know why we even bother to worry about it. Certainly no reason to do anything about it.

BTW: have we now played this game long enough that we can return to the OP? There are many other threads discussing murder by police and this would be less of a...distraction in those threads.

 

[crescent]

I can't find any specific reporting of the issue, but haven't he police come back to their precinct that was in the CHAZ? It's been a few days since I first saw reports of police returning to the precinct building.

Doesn't really seem like this occupy protest fits any definition of an autonomous zone anymore. The police are back and the street blockade has implicit permission from the city.

The protest continues, but continued talk as if this were some Mad Max anarchy zone seems especially silly now.

From what I'm understanding, the police chief was able to enter the building and get a look around inside, maybe also a few other PD employees have also. But they are not using the building on any sort of regular basis.

 

[phunk]

No, I wasn't claiming that. I was making a statement of fact. That's it's extraordinarily easy to not be murdered by police. So easy that all of the people in this thread are doing it right now!

Really, though. Is that such a controversial statement? That it's easy to not get murdered by the police? I know we're not supposed to believe it, but there you have it.

It's easy not to die from ebola. Look at all of us not dying from it right now! It must not be a deadly disease.

It's a silly argument you make, that it's easy not to be killed by a cop, because your using a sample size of "everyone" instead of "people being arrested".

 

[Giordano]

It looks like around 75% of the people killed by police are not black people. Here's another white person that was killed by police...


White woman, 52, is shot dead by police after 'walking down the street with a gun and a bottle of wine while warning of a race war' before opening fire on cops


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ad-police-walking-street-gun-bottle-wine.html

I don’t think this is as good an example of how the police treat white and black people the same as you think it is.

According to your quoted article a drunken white woman brandished a shotgun while walking down the street yelling about a race war. When the police arrived they found her in a trailer home and had a conversation with her. She then came out of the trailer with the gun and pointed it at the police, at which time the officer retreated behind a shelter. Only after she actually discharged the shotgun at the police did the officer shoot at her, apparently non-fatally. Even then, when a second officer arrived they first told her to drop to the ground. Only after she continued to try to reach the gun did they shoot her again, this time fatally.

Boy, they sure gave her a lot of chances, didn’t they? Admirable in fact. But not quite like the zero chances cops gave the guy playing with a toy gun in a Walmart. Or the kid in a playground with a toy gun. Or the guy in the car trying to tell the cop he was legally carrying a gun. Or the woman shot dead in her bed because the cops were looking for someone else. Or the woman peering out her window. Or...

No brandishing of a real gun by the dead person. No multiple warnings, No conversations. No extra chances. The cops arrived and within seconds began shooting.

Oddly, in the cases I cited the dead were black people.

The issue is not whether police shoot white people justifiably. Or even if police shoot black people justifiably. The issue is how often police shoot black people unjustifiably. And if police treat white people more gently and with more respect for their lives than they do black people. Your example is a great demonstration of the latter.

 

[Giordano]

That wasn't the content I was asking you to debunk, now was it ?



Using that reasoning, there were no police shootings in the Seattle area so far in 2020 and the map linked to in post #179 is a fake. Well that was easy.

It is fully legitimate to cite the overall veracity of a source when questioning any specific statement put forth by it.

“That news source has been proven to lie and to make up stuff over and over again. The very article you cite to prove that Obama has a satanic pentagram tattooed on his butt also claims he has pale white skin, green eyes, purple hair, and a 2 foot horn growing out of his head. Obviously he doesn’t have pale white skin, green eyes, purple hair, and a 2 foot horn growing out of his head. “

“The pale white skin, green eyes, purple hair, and a 2 foot horn growing out of his head were not the content in the article I asked you to debunk. I asked you to debunk the pentagram claim.”

 

[Checkmite]

I can't find any specific reporting of the issue, but haven't he police come back to their precinct that was in the CHAZ? It's been a few days since I first saw reports of police returning to the precinct building.

Doesn't really seem like this occupy protest fits any definition of an autonomous zone anymore. The police are back and the street blockade has implicit permission from the city.

The protest continues, but continued talk as if this were some Mad Max anarchy zone seems especially silly now.

It never fit the definition of an autonomous zone. Nor did the protesters themselves ever intend such a thing; it was simply supposed to be a "no police zone", not some kind of seceded territory.

 

[Stout]

It is fully legitimate to cite the overall veracity of a source when questioning any specific statement put forth by it.

“That news source has been proven to lie and to make up stuff over and over again. The very article you cite to prove that Obama has a satanic pentagram tattooed on his butt also claims he has pale white skin, green eyes, purple hair, and a 2 foot horn growing out of his head. Obviously he doesn’t have pale white skin, green eyes, purple hair, and a 2 foot horn growing out of his head. “

“The pale white skin, green eyes, purple hair, and a 2 foot horn growing out of his head were not the content in the article I asked you to debunk. I asked you to debunk the pentagram claim.”

That may be true in extreme circumstances such as claims made by sites like whale.to however this is not even close to one of those extreme circumstances.

Simply put, this is a website hosting a social media video that purports to show an activist suggest that white people pay black people. Either it happened as presented, or it didn't.

Complaining about the source really, really looks like people are trying convince themselves that this particular idiot didn't give a particularity idiotic speech at CHAZ/CHOP that night because it interferes with dreams that this is some sort of perfect utopia and reflects a shoot-the-messenger approach rather than one of skeptical enquiry.

So. It happened. Accept it and move on.

 

[Stout]

This one's fun...and it's from the Twitter which is a good wholcome progressive website that likes to ban alt-right fascist bourgeoisie pigdog scum content so it can't be fake.

Chaz Tourism Video

 

[dudalb]

There are very few "permanent" Autonomous zones in the World, and this one won't become one of them.

But annexation isn't really the point of an AZ; it's to show that life could be different if enough people wanted to.

Its' really just Street Theater.

 

[dudalb]

It never fit the definition of an autonomous zone. Nor did the protesters themselves ever intend such a thing; it was simply supposed to be a "no police zone", not some kind of seceded territory.

I have problems with a "no police zone" also.
What happens when somebody gets mugged or a store is robbed;which will eventually happen.
Yes, police need to be badly reformed; but that does not mean we don't need an efficent plice force;and you really cannot "shutdown" the police while reforming it.
I can see keeping the riots squads out of the aone so as not to provoke;but regular police patrols?

 

[Arcade22]

But CHOP isn't working as a place where people can live safely. It's a temporary novelty existing under a microscope that is out of focus.

CHOP does show that life could be different. It shows it the same way it was shown with hippie communes in the 1960s. It's a righteous and wonderful new world when everyone lives in a hippie commune. The police and their brutalities are only distant memories. It was a world gone bad and the commune is a world gone good.

CHOP looks to me like a repeated 60s hippie experiment where a fundamental aspect is the elimination of police. Back then the experiment was voluntarily if you chose to join in. Now it's by force as CHOP is a designated zone right in Seattle and not a voluntary choice in a more remote location. Hippie communes were more often outside of large cities rather than within.

Personally I think the police and city leadership decided cut their losses and basically quarantine these people in one location where they can do what they want (within reason).

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That wasn't the content I was asking you to debunk, now was it ? ...

Dodging the issue it is then.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I have problems with a "no police zone" also.
What happens when somebody gets mugged or a store is robbed;which will eventually happen.
Yes, police need to be badly reformed; but that does not mean we don't need an efficent plice force;and you really cannot "shutdown" the police while reforming it.
I can see keeping the riots squads out of the aone so as not to provoke;but regular police patrols?

The police have already said they would respond to any serious violence. Otherwise a person can walk to the boundary and meet the cops there.

They've also opened the street to allow some traffic so vehicles can get in.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Personally I think the police and city leadership decided cut their losses and basically quarantine these people in one location where they can do what they want (within reason).

No.

They stopped teargassing and harassing protesters and pulled back because it wasn't getting anywhere except making things worse.

 

[Stout]

Dodging the issue it is then.

Nope. You're still judging a book by it's cover knowing full well that the content of that "nook" came from the good nazi-proof Twitter which is, as we all know, hosted in the promised land of California.

They gazed on the moderated content of Twitter, safe in he knowledge that they were protected from evil and they said...it is good.

The video was also filmed and released by a CHAZophile with the New York Post being one of the only media outlets to care enough about getting this message out to the public. More liberal publications tend to shy away from this whole buy-your way-out-of-white-guilt topic because it tends to be bad for business.

You should be thanking me, and The New York Post for this timely PSA. Defund white people now !

 

[Distracted1]

Personally I think the police and city leadership decided cut their losses and basically quarantine these people in one location where they can do what they want (within reason).

Exactly.
The mayor of DC had the right idea with the giant "Black Lives Matter" mural on the street.

If anyone remembers "The Wire" (an American Television show), these places (the Mural, and CHOP )become types of "Hamsterdam" -keeping the focus of the protests localized, and easier to manage.

 

[carlitos]

Nope. You're still judging a book by it's cover knowing full well that the content of that "nook" came from the good nazi-proof Twitter which is, as we all know, hosted in the promised land of California.

They gazed on the moderated content of Twitter, safe in he knowledge that they were protected from evil and they said...it is good.

The video was also filmed and released by a CHAZophile with the New York Post being one of the only media outlets to care enough about getting this message out to the public. More liberal publications tend to shy away from this whole buy-your way-out-of-white-guilt topic because it tends to be bad for business.

You should be thanking me, and The New York Post for this timely PSA. Defund white people now !

Your post said "they" and the NY Post showed a video of one guy asking people to donate $10.

Yes, they are asking white people to give black people money.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/13/protes...give-out-cash/

The video definitely looks like the baseball field where the autonomous zone is camping out and rallying. I don't see anything to "debunk" here; it's a video, it's in the CHAZ, and the guy did say that.

Of course the title is protester "demands" that white people give cash. So it's a typical NY Post BS sensationalist headline. There are dozens of people there talking all day, every day, and one guy said this thing. And "they" isn't the whole cause or anything; it's just one guy with some goofy idea that white people should give a black person $10. Big deal -- I have given the guy on the corner with the McDonald's cup $10 before.

• So maybe the people focusing on the NY Post can chill out just this one time. The video is certainly real, and it's contents are more or less what Stout said.
• And maybe Stout can agree that one guy riffing that white people should give a black person $10 doesn't really mean anything other than what it shows.

 

[Stout]

Your post said "they" and the NY Post showed a video of one guy asking people to donate $10.

I used "they" based on the amount of applause and positive support that the speech received under the assumption that more than one person, the person making the speech approved of the idea.

If we compare that reaction with the reaction that was shown by the good liberal posters of this thread when the words of that speech were slightly altered and presented as if this thread was a microcosm of the CHAZ/CHOP playpen we have a significantly different outcome.

No applause, but open hostility to the idea. In fact those words presented in that fashion so upset some poor goober that he actually called me a racist for passing on the words of a black activist. Calling somebody a racist is probably against the M.A. but I'll let is slide because I've been around long enough to know that sometimes, snowflakes gotta snowflake.

 

[dudalb]

WE get along with them by vastly reducing their number and the scope of their mission, while vigorously prosecuting them when they step over the line.

Thanks for proving my point. You just hate the idea of police.