Almo
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When my company wants me to do training, they pay for it. They know it helps their bottom line if I'm better-skilled.
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- Thread starter Almo
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NewtonTrino
Illuminator
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Monavie is just another scam. I mean an example of a real non-MLM company that uses a similar brainwashing system.
Yes but I'm arguing that the appropriate amount of this garbage is about 1/1000 the amount currently used. These "tools" are nothing more than brainwashing garbage for the most part. They aren't something people should be listening to at all. Tools == Cult training materials. This is the reason you can't let go of this crazy business, you are just twisting it and interpreting it differently to make yourself feel comfortable. What you really need to do is bail and go do something else and forget about this.
Yes but I'm arguing that the appropriate amount of this garbage is about 1/1000 the amount currently used. These "tools" are nothing more than brainwashing garbage for the most part. They aren't something people should be listening to at all. Tools == Cult training materials. This is the reason you can't let go of this crazy business, you are just twisting it and interpreting it differently to make yourself feel comfortable. What you really need to do is bail and go do something else and forget about this.
Almo, Amway provides free online and in-person training.
Newton, I'm not here to debate whether other MLMs allow tool scams, I'm here to shut down the Amway tool scam. Not the tools, the tool SCAM.
You have to be kidding about the 1/1000 number. The tools aren't "brainwashing", most are very good. They are not cultish, you don't have a clue. This is the reason you can't let go of this crazy idea, you are just twisting it and interpreting it differently to make yourself feel comfortable. What you really need to do is bail and go do something else and forget about this.
Newton, I'm not here to debate whether other MLMs allow tool scams, I'm here to shut down the Amway tool scam. Not the tools, the tool SCAM.
You have to be kidding about the 1/1000 number. The tools aren't "brainwashing", most are very good. They are not cultish, you don't have a clue. This is the reason you can't let go of this crazy idea, you are just twisting it and interpreting it differently to make yourself feel comfortable. What you really need to do is bail and go do something else and forget about this.
NewtonTrino
Illuminator
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Sorry but you are hopelessly deluded. It's not just the tools scam Tex, it's also the tools themselves that are a problem. They basically teach people how to be brainwashed scammers.
Almo
Masterblazer
It isn't that they're not perfect. It's that their sole purpose is to brainwash people into staying in the Amway scam. That they profit massively on this is a double-scam.
Evil, evil system.
CynicalSkeptic
Master Poster
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Tex, MLM in general is a scam. Not always illegal but definitely unethical.
Simple math explains why MLMs can't work except for those at the very top of the pyramid.
NewtonTrino
Illuminator
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It's obvious that that is the case. One of the main reasons the "tools" exist is to try to make people ignore the fact that they will be losing money for a long long time.
Almo, Amway without the tool scam isn't a scam.
Cynical/Newton, you don't understand MLM. Newton, you didn't say that on the phone call, all you said was you didn't think there isn't enough money in Amway without the tool scam, but you're wrong.
Cynical/Newton, you don't understand MLM. Newton, you didn't say that on the phone call, all you said was you didn't think there isn't enough money in Amway without the tool scam, but you're wrong.
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Almo
Masterblazer
Amway is a scam. MLM only works for those on top. It is a pyramid scheme. JonnyFive explained it rather well in his long post in another MLM thread.
NewtonTrino
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There isn't enough money in Amway without the tools scam even at the level of diamond for the amount of work you put in. Most people will never get high enough to not LOSE money though. This is what makes it a crap business opportunity. It becomes a scam when people make claims about how great it is when compared to the reality. Never have I claimed it is illegal (talking pure amway here with no tools). Nor am I sure it should be illegal, people are free to throw away their money. I'm just here to warn them.
One could argue anyone stupid enough to get involved in this business deserve what they get. With all of the scams that exist in the world (listen to any radio station) people should be a little bit more discriminating about what they buy into. For example if I was buying into a franchise system there is no way that I would get involved without seeing the P/L statements for several businesses. The Amway scammers will NOT show you anything with real business numbers in it, ever. It's all theoretical money that you can make, never what is actually realistic in that business. You should run run away from this stuff.
Amway isn't a scam. MLM works for anyone who wants to build a business. If it were a pyramid scheme, it would be illegal. Jonny is clueless. Do you expect someone who is new, and therefore "on the bottom" to make as much money as someone who has put in years of effort? Do you have a clue?
The amount of work a diamond puts in is BECAUSE of the tool scam. Don't you remember the sandcastle story on the telephone? Without the tool scam, there isn't the tide rushing in destroying the sandcastles. All you do is repeat the jibberish that is in fashion with anti-MLM'ers. One could argue anything, but that doesn't mean your argument is based on facts.
Almo
Masterblazer
No, it's not necessarily illegal. Products DO in fact get bought, so it's legal. It's still a pyramid scheme. Have you read JonnyFive's analysis? Or are you just saying it's stupid because you don't agree with his conclusion?
NewtonTrino
Illuminator
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Of course he hasn't read it. He's completely brainwashed to the point where he won't examine his assumptions. This is what listening to tools does to you. Tex is a true believer who is just using his own interpretation instead of what his "priest" is saying.
The tools are a scam. The tools are also brainwashing material that seem to work well. Amway itself is also a scam (pyramid scheme). There are multiple layers to this onion and tex has peeled back one layer (the tools scam). For some reason he wants to ignore the rest.
He has this theory that the rest of Amway is tainted by the tools scam and that without it the business would turn into something good. This fails on several points that Tex will not bother defending or responding to.
The tools are a scam. The tools are also brainwashing material that seem to work well. Amway itself is also a scam (pyramid scheme). There are multiple layers to this onion and tex has peeled back one layer (the tools scam). For some reason he wants to ignore the rest.
He has this theory that the rest of Amway is tainted by the tools scam and that without it the business would turn into something good. This fails on several points that Tex will not bother defending or responding to.
CynicalSkeptic
Master Poster
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Sure it is. It may not be illegal, but it's a scam nonetheless.
Sure I do. In order to make money, an IBO recruits a downline and collects a commission from everyone in his downline. In turn, all those people must recruit a downline and make money from them. Repeat to infinity.
Infinite Exponential growth is necessary for everyone to make a profit. Since there are a finite number of suckers, it doesn't work, and only the people at the top make money.
NewtonTrino
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Maybe scam is the wrong word. Crap business opportunity? Bottom line, it's not a good investment of your time or your money. Add the tools scam on top and it turns into a business cult which is scary as hell.
CynicalSkeptic
Master Poster
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depends on how you define scam.
Just cuz the FTC or other government agencies won't say it's illegal, doesn't prove it's not a scam.
MLM is just a legal pyramid scheme where there is some product that to make it legal.
Just cuz the FTC or other government agencies won't say it's illegal, doesn't prove it's not a scam.
MLM is just a legal pyramid scheme where there is some product that to make it legal.
Jeff Corey
New York Skeptic
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True. I told a friend of my wife's that fifteen years ago. He said I was just being negative and missing out on a great opportunity to make some real money.
Now I have some real money and he has considerably less. He's not living in his car under the bridge, but he has no cushion to survive these bad times. Poor sucker.
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