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[Tex2]

Nobody took my offer to discuss how the Amway business could be run in an ethical and profitable manner. Do you prefer to bicker like little girls rather than discuss facts?

 

[NewtonTrino]

Tex,

Go ahead and show us your numbers. The bottom line though is how many groups actually do what you are going to explain? I'm more interested in the practical way the business is run not theoretically how it could work.

 

[Tex2]

NewtonTrino,

You're right, not nearly enough grouops are running an ethical and honest business, they are running a tool scam. In fact, after the UK episode, I'm convinced it doesn't make any sense to build the sponsoring side of the business until the tool scam is shut down, because the government could take all of your time, money, and effort and destroy it, as happened in the UK. I'll list what I've done later.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Please go and find some one you trust versed in statistics and ask them if you should use an average to judge a heavily skewed or otherwise very non-normal distribution.

The fact that it follows this skewed distribution is part of the problem

That's not "brainwashing", it offering people something they want or value. There are atheists that go to church because they like the social aspects. Even though I'm not actively building an Amway business I often go to seminars because I value the positive atmosphere and encouragement, and I find it helps me focus on achieving my goals in life and business. I get value out of it. I could legitimately (I don't) claim them as business deductions for my other companies. They're obviously not much good at brainwashing me "to do Amway" though - since I'm not, and indeed most of the people who attend these seminars don't do much. There's a study quoted in the Amway wikipedia article by I think some economists talking about how people get social value out of participation even if they're not getting monetary rewards. Same goes with most religions, or sports teams, whatever. People put their own value on things. I've seen for example the videos of slogan chanting at some Amway affiliated meetings. That would put me off, I wouldn't value it at all. Yet clearly others do value and enjoy that kind of thing. Just because I give it no value doesn't mean others don't.

It sounds to me like your simply talking about people not evaluating things correctly and making poor decisions. That has nothing to do with "brainwashing"

I'm sorry but you're just wrong. You obviously have a lot more trust in the average person to evaluate when they are being controlled than I do. I'm not stock on the label brainwashing but there are a set of techniques that people are vulnerable to. Things like love bombing, systematically listening to tapes every day and sleep deprivation that makes people shut down what little critical thinking skills they already have. I think there is plenty of proof that people don't always believe the truth and often times are willing to believe things that are not in their best interest. Amway AMO's exploit this part of humanity and they claim to do it with good intentions. They absolutely claim that this stuff is meant to train you into becoming a different person and IMHO it does it's job well. Go read the hundreds of testimonials from people that have waken up from this state of mind after years of working the business and doing what they are told is the correct thing, and still failing of course.

Rubbish. The entire idea of "the system" is to provide a systematic business that allows for easy expansion. Please read Michael Gerber's The E-Myth Revisted for information on the importance of a systematic business approach.

It's not immune from criticism, like most things its not perfect and there's plenty of things to be critical about. But somethings, like "average income" are stupid things to be critical of, since they're effectively meaningless.

The fact that you can't see how this invalidates the pyramid structure as anything other than something to part suckers with their money makes me serioiusly ROTFLMAO. I'm not saying you can't make money doing it, what I am saying is that you need several thousand suckers losing money for everyone that is making money. At the LEAST this is unethical. I know you will justify this by somehow trying to make it their fault for losing money at the lower levels but the system is set up in a way to make this a reality. The products simply aren't sellable in any real quantity at retail. The business sucks and the average Amway distributor who is TRYING would still be better off at McDonalds. You can dispute this all you want to by trying to twist the numbers but the fact is that only a very small portion of people actively trying to build scamway make a profit of any kind. Any kind of legit business opportunity is going to show you the books from an actual profitable operation if they are enticing you to invest. This is business 101 and something that scamway just ignores because "every business is unique" or "you get as much as the work you put in" which is frankly just BS.

You are the one claiming it's "crap". On what basis are you able to make decisions on the value of things to other people?

Because I've seen the business first hand for the last 30 years and I've almost universally seen failure, heartbreak and financial devastation? The same reason that I'm able to slam any other religion like scientology, christianity, islam etc. IMHO people would be better of staying away from these types of activities that rely on indoctrination.

Why? There are literally thousands of these people giving much of this information at seminars and tapes/CDs around the world. You've declared it "crap". Why is a recording of someone "crap" but their text in a forum somehow more believable? I've given figures for my business here, including rough income and expenses and simply been called a liar. Other folk are smarter than me and don't waste their time. I certainly wouldn't want my downline spending time here!

You haven't given us ANYTHING in any kind of detailed form about your business dude. You've given some very vague statements about a few thousand a month. I seriously doubt you make much if anything at all in profit from Amway, now or ever in the past. You realize you can't just claim this and need to supply some sort of proof right? I've seen many people claim they are making X when they don't take into account either a) all of the time they invested or b) their actual incurred expenses. You've never once told us how much PROFIT you declared on your tax return in any year associated with your amway business. Most amway people are in complete denial and will claim that they have pumped up their expenses to the point where they don't need to declare a profit. I wish I could do that with my business but you only have so many real expenses before you run out of deductions and a business that is truly profitable in the way the great Amway business is should be showing a solid profit every year.

It's a scam. They will try to brainwash you like they did Icerat. It's dangerous to get involved with. I've seen many people become alienated from friends, family, previous job etc. in this business. Stay away unless you want to get involved in something unethical as all hell. BTW if you truly are a great people user and salesman I'm sure you can make a ton of money selling tapes and making speeches.

 

[BenBurch]

Just google "Amway Victims"

 

[icerat]

The fact that it follows this skewed distribution is part of the problem

The fact only people who work make any money is a problem????

I'm sorry but you're just wrong.

Yeah, just me and most of the scientific world.

I think there is plenty of proof that people don't always believe the truth and often times are willing to believe things that are not in their best interest.

Provide the proof then please. I'm currently rereading "The Logic of Life" and he offers rational explanations for all sorts of prima facie "not in their best interest" activities, such as prostitutes not using condoms.

Amway AMO's exploit this part of humanity and they claim to do it with good intentions. They absolutely claim that this stuff is meant to train you into becoming a different person and IMHO it does it's job well.

Of course it's meant to train you into becoming "a different person". So is med school!

Go read the hundreds of testimonials from people that have waken up from this state of mind after years of working the business and doing what they are told is the correct thing, and still failing of course.

I've read pretty much all the testimonials that can be found. It seems to me that many of the negative ones come from folk who instead of operating as business owners, have operated as if they were employees. When upline has given advice they've taken it as if it were orders from a boss, even if it was clearly not a sensible thing for them to do.

When writing that it occurred to me that the problem might as well be described as claiming they'd been "brainwashed" as employees in "the real world" just to do what they were told, and if things didn't work out they could "blame the boss".

People make dumb decisions all the time, they don't have to be "brainwashed" to have done it.

The fact that you can't see how this invalidates the pyramid structure as anything other than something to part suckers with their money makes me serioiusly ROTFLMAO.

I have no idea what you're referring to here.

I'm not saying you can't make money doing it, what I am saying is that you need several thousand suckers losing money for everyone that is making money.

That is completely false. As I've already stated, while you could make money with "several thousand suckers losing money", you'd make A LOT more more money if those several thousand were all profitable. You claim is demonstrably false.

At the LEAST this is unethical. I know you will justify this by somehow trying to make it their fault for losing money at the lower levels but the system is set up in a way to make this a reality. The products simply aren't sellable in any real quantity at retail.

Again, an absurd statement. Apart from folk actively breaking Amway's rules (and commonsense) stockpiling stuff in the garage, there's $8.2billion of sales at retail.

If you're referring to full retail price, yu're just continuing to ignore facts. I already told you I have more than 20 full retail price customers and I'm not even trying to build a business. I pointed out the Indonesian Crown who does tens of thousands of dollars in personal customer sales every month and the UK Double Diamond with over 70 registered customers. Here's a Swedish ABO talking about having 25-30 personal customers and 50-90% of his personal volume every month coming for customers. Here's a US IBO talking about 40-50% of his personal volume coming from personal retail sales, and another US IBOtalking about how she just picked up yet another customer. Here's an Irish IBO talking about the ease with which he picked up a new customer recently, and delivering a product to another customer. I have a friend in New York who has over a thousand customers he deals with.

You're simply wrong to claim the products are unretailable.

The business sucks and the average Amway distributor who is TRYING would still be better off at McDonalds. You can dispute this all you want to by trying to twist the numbers but the fact is that only a very small portion of people actively trying to build scamway make a profit of any kind.

Completely false. I've provided statistics and mathematical analysis. You continue just to ignore it.

Any kind of legit business opportunity is going to show you the books from an actual profitable operation if they are enticing you to invest.

Absolutely. If I was going to sell you my Amway business, I would show you the books.

This is business 101 and something that scamway just ignores because "every business is unique" or "you get as much as the work you put in" which is frankly just BS.

How is it BS?

Because I've seen the business first hand for the last 30 years and I've almost universally seen failure, heartbreak and financial devastation?

Interesting. You imply you're dealing with hundreds of Diamonds - "universally" means you've seen their "failure, heartbreak and financial devastation"?

Or is this just another hyperbolic statements with no support?

Even if it was true, I again point out you next to now experience outside of one Amway group, a tiny part of the Amway world.

The same reason that I'm able to slam any other religion like scientology, christianity, islam etc. IMHO people would be better of staying away from these types of activities that rely on indoctrination.

What "indoctrination"?

You haven't given us ANYTHING in any kind of detailed form about your business dude. You've given some very vague statements about a few thousand a month. I seriously doubt you make much if anything at all in profit from Amway, now or ever in the past. You realize you can't just claim this and need to supply some sort of proof right?

See ... told ya you'd just accuse me of lying no matter what I did

I've seen many people claim they are making X when they don't take into account either a) all of the time they invested or b) their actual incurred expenses. You've never once told us how much PROFIT you declared on your tax return in any year associated with your amway business.

If I'm making money, it's a profit. Clear?

If I provided a PDF of a tax return I'd simply be accused of forging it.

It's a scam. They will try to brainwash you like they did Icerat.

Oh yeah, I'm brainwashed, uhuh. Don't build an Amway business. Hardly ever listen to Amway related CDs or attend Amway related seminars. Read everything I can find about Amway, whether pro or negative. Write blog posts about Amway, both pro and negative. Source and post pro and negative material about Amway and post it in on AmwayWiki, a site I maintain.

And because after all this research I don't agree with you - who has done next to no research - I'm the one that is brainwashed.?

It's dangerous to get involved with. I've seen many people become alienated from friends, family, previous job etc. in this business.

I'd I've never lost a friend and made many through my involvement with Amway. On the other hand, I have lost friends through other business deals that went bad.

Stay away unless you want to get involved in something unethical as all hell. BTW if you truly are a great people user and salesman I'm sure you can make a ton of money selling tapes and making speeches.

Oh yeah .... listen to the guy who has never worked with the business and has limited second or third hand experience with one small corner of the world and refuses to answer pretty much every direct question put to him.

Or instead, maybe read a book by a top European Business academic who visited 13 countries over several years researching the company or see what top business leaders in the US say and review the hundreds of awards Amway has won over the years or go to any seminars or borrow any materials you like, pretty much anywhere in the world, and while you're there, meet some people who've been successful with Amway and ask for some "proof" of the money they make.

You could do those things. Or you could just continue to believe what you want to believe because that's what you want to believe, and go google self-selecting samples on the Internet Echo Chamber so you can safely reinforce what you want to believe.

 

[BenBurch]

Again, when less than 1% of everybody who pays a fortune to try this makes enough money for a living on a thing, if it isn't an outright scam, its about the stupidest business proposition there is.

Handicapping horse races has a better success rate.

 

[icerat]

Again, when less than 1% of everybody who pays a fortune to try this makes enough money for a living on a thing

ROFLMAO!!!

Oh yeah, it's a fortune. Free to join in some countries, 49 bucks or so in the US, not much different anywhere else - and you can get it all back if you just ask.

Man, you and I have WAAAYYYYY different ideas of what a "fortune" is.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Or you're delusional about how much money the typical person loses in scamway compared to how much income they have from their "JOB".

 

[NewtonTrino]

there's $8.2billion of sales at retail.

BS. Amway sells almost none of their product at retail prices. I dare you to prove this.

As for the rest of your spin..... I don't really care. You are obviously brainwashed and I don't think there is a need to go through this stuff point by point. Try as you might it's not really possible to spin this business into something worth bothering with.

Again, I warn everyone out there that these people are friggin insane. Stay far away.

 

[BenBurch]

Please stop lying about how Amway works. I've seen it firsthand.

 

[NewtonTrino]

You might want to be clear about who's lying LOL.

 

[icerat]

BS. Amway sells almost none of their product at retail prices. I dare you to prove this.

Did you read my post? Retail and Retail Prices are not the same thing. A retail sale is a sale to an end user, the price plays no part in determining if something is a retail sale or not.

As for the rest of your spin..... I don't really care.

Good to see you admit you don't care about any evidence that is contrary to your worldview.

You are obviously brainwashed and I don't think there is a need to go through this stuff point by point. Try as you might it's not really possible to spin this business into something worth bothering with.

If anyone reflects "brainwashing" it's you. You say the products can't be retailed, so I provide links to people talking about retailing the products. So you say "you don't care" - yup, we wouldn't want them pesky facts getting in the way would we? Your so desperate to hold on to your world view you'll just dismiss anything contrary. Who's the brainwashed one again?

Again, I warn everyone out there that these people are friggin insane. Stay far away.

 

[icerat]

Please stop lying about how Amway works. I've seen it firsthand.

What have I lied about?

 

[NewtonTrino]

Did you read my post? Retail and Retail Prices are not the same thing. A retail sale is a sale to an end user, the price plays no part in determining if something is a retail sale or not.

I don't care about the price. As usual you evade the heart of the matter. Let me restate: WHAT PERCENTAGE OF AMWAY PRODUCTS GO TO NON AMWAY DISTRIBUTORS?
Proof please. This number is very very important as it goes to show how Amway is a pyramid scam. The vast majority of the products (90%+) should be going to real retail customers. It isn't because Amway products suck (especially for the price).

 

[Tex2]

ibofb/icerat,

Your entire life is a lie.

For the others, are you in the U.S.? If you are, let me know a good time to call a conference call number this weekend. ibofb/icerat is a complete waste of time and humanity. Trust me, I've blogged with him for years and met him in Prague last year. Just google "Talk to Tex Amway" and the conference number is listed there. Propose a couple of days/times to get on the phone, be sure to provide your time zone.

 

[NewtonTrino]

And because after all this research I don't agree with you - who has done next to no research

BTW I have done plenty of research because I lived this scam for many years. Again let me repeat that I was in a position to SEE THE BOOKS of several kingpin distributors because they USED MY SOFTWARE to run their business. I've used the products for years and years personally as well as was attended many many functions and actively worked in my dads business. This is part of the reason I KNOW that it's a scam. I don't know how much more clear I can be here without getting embroiled in some sort of public scandal where I start naming names of distributors I worked with. Unfortunately NDA's are involved so I can't do this without getting into legal trouble. Nor do I really care to (as you don't care to actually give us a nice month to month P/L statement for your business). I'm just here to warn people that this is a scam, a horrible "business" opportunity and a cult.

Also the idea that you have put up things negative about Amway is preposterous. If you had an ethical bone in your body you would decry this as the scam it is. Frankly I don't see it as your fault though given the misinformation that the scamway systems promote. You're part of the problem here Icerat, not part of the solution.

I really really hope that the FTC grows some balls or that congress does and shuts down these scams. Unfortunately money talks and scamway has plenty of that thanks to the MILLIONS of people who have lost money in it.

 

[Richard Masters]

If this is such a large forum, why don't you ask if someone on this forum uses another of the top prestige brands of makeup?

You sound pretty new to the internet. Is "blog" some kind of derisive Amway-speak for website?

The truth of the matter is jref threads get indexed very quickly by Google, and there is enough of a readership that it is statistically probable that iff people buy Amway's overpriced crap as customers (and not to fulfill some membership quota) they will be represented here.

You can't do anything for me because you don't have your facts straight. Other businesses have referrals. Hey, how 'bout that sale at Walmart or the grocery store? Did you see that movie? Did you try that restaurant? Have you gone on that cruise? Etc., etc., etc. You're so anti-Amway/MLM you can't see straight.

Right... How 'bout that great Amway detergent, Mom!

The referrals you are speaking of sound like genuine recommendations based on the product. I have never heard a single positive comment about any Amway or Quixtar product; it's usually more of a "Let me tell you about this great opportunity..." I think the difference is clear.

 

[BenBurch]

Please stop lying about how Amway works. I've seen it firsthand.

Referring to icerat, sorry. When I started the post yours weren't there yet, but then I got called away and...

 

[BenBurch]

I'll say it again, a teeny-tiny percentage of all who try to base a business on Amway make it.

Google "Amway victim" and you'll find many sad stories.

Worse, the corporate culture appears to be VERY right-wing, and there is no way many people would touch an Amway product for that reason alone.