Amway TV ad

[NewtonTrino]

Worse, the corporate culture appears to be VERY right-wing, and there is no way many people would touch an Amway product for that reason alone.

Don't worry, only people in Amway or their relatives actually buy this stuff.

 

[icerat]

I don't care about the price. As usual you evade the heart of the matter. Let me restate: WHAT PERCENTAGE OF AMWAY PRODUCTS GO TO NON AMWAY DISTRIBUTORS?

Who cares?

Proof please. This number is very very important as it goes to show how Amway is a pyramid scam.

Not it doesn't. That's complete crap. The FTC has even explictly stated this position is not correct. Please read Myth: It's a pyramid of most products are consumed by IBOs. You're just confirming your ignorance.

The vast majority of the products (90%+) should be going to real retail customers. It isn't because Amway products suck (especially for the price).

Please explain how when I eat Amway pasta I'm not a "real" retail customer. The only other type of customer is a "wholesale" customer, and I can assure you I'm not reselling the pasta after I eat it ....

 

[icerat]

I'll say it again, a teeny-tiny percentage of all who try to base a business on Amway make it.

Proof please. I've already provided numerous data points the opposite is true.

Google "Amway victim" and you'll find many sad stories.

And it would support my position, not yours, as percentage-wise there is only a teeny-teeny-tiny-tiny number of "sad stories" on the internet - and virtually all of them from the same group, a minority of Amway!

A rational person might hypothesise that perhaps this group and other groups weren't the same.

Worse, the corporate culture appears to be VERY right-wing, and there is no way many people would touch an Amway product for that reason alone.

Again, more BS. The owners of Amway are right-wing (I don't know if I'd say very), and some groups (such as the one Newton Trino has experience with) are known to be very right-wing, but Amway corporation itself isn't.
Indeed the accreditation rules released a few years ago, explictly ban promoting political (or religious) positions through Amway. Failure to comply can result in loss of many bonuses. In discussions I had with Amway staff last year, virtually every one I spoke to voted Democrat and they indicated that, like much of Michigan, a large number of the stuff were Democrat (perhaps even a majority), and that the owners did not push their political beliefs through the company.

You're making the same mistake as Newton Trino - taking the example of one group and it's offshoots and assuming, contrary to all evidence, that all other groups are the same. They're not. Heck, I'm not in the US, but I can pretty much guarantee that if you surveyed the tens of thousands of Amway IBOs in my corner of the world, easily more than 90% of them would have supported Barack Obama in the last US election, and Al Gore in the election before that. The majority of Amway IBOs are Chinese, and I'm fairly certain they're not "very right-wing".

Having said all of that, if you pick and choose the companies you buy from based on their owners politics, that might be a legitimate reason not to buy Amway products. Might not be also. Around 65% of the sale of any product goes to the IBOs. If you happened to buy from me that means it would be primarily going to liberals, not right wingers. Of the remaining 35% a very large chunk goes into manufacturing expenses ... which again in Michigan means it's supporting workers and primarily Democrats. Only a small percentage goes to the owners who use it to support their political causes.

Clearly what matters most is who you buy it from, not who owns the manufacturer. Buy it from a right-wing distributor, the nature of networking means his group is likely right-wing, so a majority of the money may be going to right-wingers. Of course what happens to the money then is another whole story ...

 

[Almo]

I don't care about the price. As usual you evade the heart of the matter. Let me restate: WHAT PERCENTAGE OF AMWAY PRODUCTS GO TO NON AMWAY DISTRIBUTORS?

Who cares?

Proof please. This number is very very important as it goes to show how Amway is a pyramid scam.

Not it doesn't. That's complete crap.

It does matter. If you have:

A) Overpriced products (check!)
B) People in an MLM system to sell these products (check!)
C) Most people who buy these products are in said MLM system (check!)

Then you have a pyramid scheme.

 

[icerat]

It does matter. If you have:

A) Overpriced products (check!)
B) People in an MLM system to sell these products (check!)
C) Most people who buy these products are in said MLM system (check!)

Then you have a pyramid scheme.

What matters is motivation for purchase.

Now if you go out there and recruit a whole bunch of people, and convince them when joining that they *have* to buy all these products they don't want, because then they'll get rich, and they do the same - then you may indeed be running an illegal pyramid, as well as breaking Amway's rules. This is one of the factors behind why a large group got kicked out of Amway a couple of years ago. The way they were running their Amway businesses might be considered an illegal pyramid.

I purchase Amway products because I prefer them to the competition. In most cases I find them cheaper than the competition.

Some Amway products I don't buy because I think they are indeed over-priced, even if I think they're better quality than the competition I don't think the increased quality is worth the price.

Same thing applies with virtually any company I deal with.

This may be difficult for your ego to grasp, but just because YOU think the products are "over-priced crap" doesn't mean everyone else does. In the consumables world, having 96% of people preferring someone elses products will often make you the segment leader.

 

[Almo]

Some Amway products I don't buy because I think they are indeed over-priced, even if I think they're better quality than the competition I don't think the increased quality is worth the price.

I showed in an earlier post that the vitamins you said were cheaper than Costco vitamins were in fact MUCH more expensive.

 

[NewtonTrino]

It does matter. If you have:

A) Overpriced products (check!)
B) People in an MLM system to sell these products (check!)
C) Most people who buy these products are in said MLM system (check!)

Then you have a pyramid scheme.

Bingo! Motivation for purchase is irrelevant. Motivation is a very intangible thing. People convince themselves of all kinds of silly things (or in Amways case are helped to believe a certain thing). Motivation simply isn't a defense to this being a pyramid scheme, sorry. In Amways case it's absolutely clear that the vast majority of the products are sold to people that are in the business. Amway is a pyramid scam on multiple levels.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Who cares?


Not it doesn't. That's complete crap. The FTC has even explictly stated this position is not correct. Please read Myth: It's a pyramid of most products are consumed by IBOs. You're just confirming your ignorance.



Please explain how when I eat Amway pasta I'm not a "real" retail customer. The only other type of customer is a "wholesale" customer, and I can assure you I'm not reselling the pasta after I eat it ....

Does anyone reading this thead think this needs any more explanation? Icerats argument in this linked "article" (that he wrote btw) is that it's not an ILLEGAL pyramid scheme. I'm not claiming (nor is anyone else) that it's ILLEGAL, clearly Amway's lobbyists have done a good job on that front. No, what we are claiming is that it's a SCAM. Not all scams are illegal. In fact the line between a scam and a legit (albeit crappy) business opportunity is a thin on.

Again let me repeat, we are not claim illegality which is all your linked essay is defending. We are saying that if the money comes from primarily inside the pyramid which when you combine low external retail sales (again PROOF if you dispute this) as well as tools money is the vast majority of money in the pyramid.

SCAM! CRAP BUSINESS! Whatever you want to call it.

one line from the linked article that Icerat wrote:

Purchases an IBO makes for their own consumption are by definition retail sales.

Whatever, this is completely pointless! Don't you understand that definitions don't matter and it's simply a question of where the money comes from? Without a very solid retail support base the profits of the upline will come out of the pockets of the downline. If you are not retailing, buy from yourself and purchase tools you are sending your upline a nice check every month while you almost guarantee that you and those below you will lose money. You need to retail, and retail needs to be the vast majority of volume to make this not a scam.

Also telling us that your upline encourages retail also doesn't matter (even if they do, which I seriously doubt). The actuality of what happens is that people can't retail enough product to make the pyramid viable without sucking people into the business as a way to convince to buy product so they too can get rich.

Icerat, this is a very transparent and simple scheme. Given how little money you've made can you explain to us why you are so enamored of this? I can take a few guesses (how many cd's, tapes and functions have you listened to????)

 

[Tex2]

You guys are completely wasting your time and energy arguing with ibofb/icerat. He's a complete jerk and takes things out of context, such as:

1. Retail sales have a specific definition when discussing Amway rules, not the generic dictionary definition. Retail sales within the Amway rules are sales to non-IBOs, this is only the latest of dozens of times ibofb's has tried this stupid argument.

2. Motivation has NOTHING to do with the rules. Many IBOs buy the products because they are TOLD to do so by their upline, in order to earn PV/BV and be an example to their downline. The reason retail (to non-IBOs) is required is to prove the products are marketable to someone without the above incentives. I asked Amway this specific question and they said I am correct. I have told ibofb this on many occasions. ibofb is a LIAR.

3. When TEAM got booted a couple of years ago, they released confidential information that 3-4% of the volume was from REAL retail sales to non-IBOs.

All the above assumes U.S. rules and reference point. ibofb likes to argue on and on about various issues, then tries to fake you out regarding his information is from non-U.S. locations. Here's the bottom line: What do the other groups he thinks are so honest and ethical charge for the various tools?

 

[NewtonTrino]

Good post Tex!

Personally I agree with you that he sees facts from a very odd angle and tries to twist and turn them into something that makes sense. I ain't buyin.

What do the other groups he thinks are so honest and ethical charge for the various tools?

He'll claim it's a very small amount and that there isn't much profit but even if there is profit he doesn't care. I really wish that people reading this could get an idea of what these "tools" contains in the way of information (hint: they are basically sermons of the amway religion).

 

[Tex2]

Actually, when you remove the tool profit motive (in other words, lower the tool prices), the tool content is quite good. I'm not saying it's perfect, just very good. At the extreme, if tools were free, what harm would come from promoting the next meeting or CD, etc? In fact, remove the tool profit motive, and the meeting/CD content would probably get even better, because the only way to make the profit would be to train and motivate the IBOs to use and sell the products and sponsor others to do the same.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Tex2]

Go ahead and disagree, but you have to say why.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I already said why. They are basically sermons to the church of Amway. That's not to say that they don't teach some aspects of building the business but primarily they are sermons.

 

[Tex2]

What do you mean by "sermons", or "church of Amway?" Are you aware that most sales organizations teach using motivational techniques?

 

[Almo]

What do you mean by "sermons", or "church of Amway?" Are you aware that most sales organizations teach using motivational techniques?

There's a qualitative difference between cult-like indoctrination and normal business motivation.

 

[NewtonTrino]

There's a qualitative difference between cult-like indoctrination and normal business motivation.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner.

 

[Bob Klase]

There's a qualitative difference between cult-like indoctrination and normal business motivation.

Correct. In the short time I was in Amway (almost 30 years ago) I can't recall any of the tapes/tools giving any real information on running a business or selling products. The were 99% devoted to how great your life would be when you hit the big time, long rambling and detailed dissertations about the day they quit their 'real' job and rubbed all their co-workers noses in the fact that they were "finally free" and what a loser everyone else was for being too stupid to see what a great opportunity they were missing.

The 2 (or 3) weekend 'seminars' I attended were a big factor in waking me up to what I'd got myself into. They were closer to fundamentalist evangelical revival meetings than any business- the only thing missing was faith healings.

Hardly normal business motivation for any non-cult business.

No doubt icerat would blame that on my particular line, or claim that things are different now, but nothing I've seen or heard in the last 30 years gives me any reason to believe that the vast majority of other lines weren't the same or that it's much different now except where the government has stepped in and made them change.

 

[icerat]

Again let me repeat, we are not claim illegality which is all your linked essay is defending. We are saying that if the money comes from primarily inside the pyramid which when you combine low external retail sales (again PROOF if you dispute this) as well as tools money is the vast majority of money in the pyramid.

This is your circular logic. You're claiming nobody buys the products legitimately (despite all the evidence to the contrary) and proof is that most products are bought by members. Of course, if you liked the products, you'd become a member to get them cheaper .... which just proves, in your world, that nobody legitimately wants the products!

Do you really believe this rubbish your spouting?

Whatever, this is completely pointless! Don't you understand that definitions don't matter and it's simply a question of where the money comes from? Without a very solid retail support base the profits of the upline will come out of the pockets of the downline.

So ... what you're saying is that it's a scam because people who like the products and join or stay IBOs just to get the products cheaper, are being scammed by their upline .... what they should be doing is not be members, and pay 30% more for the products!

Yeah ... that's makes so much sense.

I'll just call Amway and let them know I want to resign, because NewtonTrino says I'm being scammed by paying a lot less for the products than a "real" customer ....

If you are not retailing, buy from yourself and purchase tools you are sending your upline a nice check every month while you almost guarantee that you and those below you will lose money. You need to retail, and retail needs to be the vast majority of volume to make this not a scam.

I partly agree. The business model works a lot better with customers. That's why I've always had them, and taught others to have them.

Of course, you just ignore all the IBOs with customers and pretend they on't exist.

You also continue to ignore the MAJORITY of IBOs that are just buying products, and buying NO tools, and not even attempting to make money. They're just as legitimate a customer as someone paying full price. Why can't you see that?

Also telling us that your upline encourages retail also doesn't matter (even if they do, which I seriously doubt).

Well of course you do, it wouldn't fit your world view would it?

I could post MP3s and scans of documents etc all talking about customers ... but I know the response to that, because I've had it before ... "Oh yeah, they'll say that in the seminars and on tapes ... but behind close doors they'll tell you to ignore it!"

What amazing brainwashing! Not only can they brainwash you through the tapes, they do it so well they can even get you to ignore what's said on the tapes!

You seriously need some tinfoil dude.

 

[icerat]

I tried to end this thread a few posts back, now it's time to do it at least for me.

You believe what you want to believe, you've made it clear that anything that disagrees with your doctrine will simply be dismissed.

You've made it clear that you believe you have "the truth" and that you've had "the one true experience" and that anyone who claims to have experienced anything different is lying.

I get it. A little thing like reality simply isn't going to get in the way of your beliefs. That kind of faith can't be argued against, as is evident enough elsewhere on JREF where religious types talk about how their personal experience is all the proof they need, and things like logic or rational thought can and should be ignored.

For those lurkers who instead care to evaluate evidence and look at the facts, I've provided enough links and data and 3rd party information. They can make their own decisions.

So I'm done in this thread. Have a nice weekend.