Amway TV ad

[Almo]

Easy. According to Amway's own numbers, the average Amway (Quixtar) guy makes $2000 a year -- before expenses.

You'd make far more than that working at McDonald's.

Yup, the OP is pretty damning. And it's not only direct info from Amway, it's from an ad attempting to entice people into Amway! You can tell they're counting on appealing to people who don't understand math.

 

[NewtonTrino]

No Almo, you don't get it. It's only the AVERAGE people that are AVERAGE. You're so much better than them that you'll make big money, guaranteed. If you do the work the income will follow! It's that simple, don't you get it! Once you are successful you will be way above average and make lots of money!

ROTFLMAO

 

[icerat]

Easy. According to Amway's own numbers, the average Amway (Quixtar) guy makes $2000 a year -- before expenses.

Please bother reading the thread before you reply with stuff that's already been completely discredited.

 

[icerat]

Yup, the OP is pretty damning. And it's not only direct info from Amway, it's from an ad attempting to entice people into Amway! You can tell they're counting on appealing to people who don't understand math.

You haven't actually bothered reading the thread either have you? No interest in facts when it challenges your misconceptions huh?

No Almo, you don't get it. It's only the AVERAGE people that are AVERAGE. You're so much better than them that you'll make big money, guaranteed. If you do the work the income will follow! It's that simple, don't you get it! Once you are successful you will be way above average and make lots of money!

Do you guys join the gym to get the same results as the average gym membership holder? Or do you join to get fit?

 

[icerat]

guys (and gals?) how about we tie this thread up? I've made my case, backed by numerous facts, figures, statistics, and expert opinions.

You've made your case, backed up by .... hmmm .... well .... your opinions.

There's nothing much more to be said is there?

 

[NewtonTrino]

Actually if you actually READ the thread there are plenty of facts and figures on both sides.

I personally think we've said all we need to about 15 pages ago but I think the overall length of the thread and the vehemence of both sides is something that's only possible in something like a religious thread. The more you respond and try to make this look like a legit business opportunity the more you show it to be a brainwashing based cult.

 

[BenBurch]

uhh ... no. (though I had to look up Ballyhoo

I've already refused a request to "show the plan" here, and told another party I had no interest in sponsoring him. Not to mention the fact I've already stated I'm not currently building an Amway business.

Amazing how for some, anyone spending time defending Amway or MLM must somehow have an ulterior motive and be some kind of brainwashed zealot, but anyone attacking Amway or MLM ... oh, they can spend as much time as they like on it!

Uh huh. Never wisen up a Mark. You learned well.

 

[Tex2]

NewtonTrino,

I'll show you an Amway marketing plan that does not depend on a tool scam. Are you game?

Hello? Anyone want to see the facts, or continue to talk past each other?

 

[icerat]

The more you respond and try to make this look like a legit business opportunity the more you show it to be a brainwashing based cult.

The more you respond, the more you ignore those facts and figures .... what's the name of your brainwashing based cult?

 

[cyborg]

Do you guys join the gym to get the same results as the average gym membership holder? Or do you join to get fit?

The real question is: why do you think you're not only not average but - presumably - above average?

You shouldn't presume so - that's the whole damn point.

 

[icerat]

The real question is: why do you think you're not only not average but - presumably - above average?

You shouldn't presume so - that's the whole damn point.

No, you don't presume so - you go and find out. Unlike the gym, network marketing companies allow you to do this at little or no risk. You can give it a try for months, and get all your money back if you discover you spent the month on the sofa watching reruns of American idol.

Try that with your gym card.

 

[Almo]

Please bother reading the thread before you reply with stuff that's already been completely discredited.

I never saw anything that discredited the OP. I saw some attempts, but nothing that convinced me.

 

[icerat]

The OP is easily discredited - non-normal distribution

 

[Almo]

The OP is easily discredited - non-normal distribution

That does not discredit it. It merely shows that most people lose money or break even. It's not a good business opportunity given the numbers in the ad.

 

[NewtonTrino]

No, you don't presume so - you go and find out. Unlike the gym, network marketing companies allow you to do this at little or no risk. You can give it a try for months, and get all your money back if you discover you spent the month on the sofa watching reruns of American idol.

Try that with your gym card.

I completely dispute the statement that there is little or no risk. It kind of like saying you should try joining someone's church. Come on out, just one Sunday, check it out because there's no risk. Then you start listening to the very very CONvincing church leaders who try to manipulate you into becoming a hardcore member. People fall into cults all the time and that is the true risk of this "business". Don't take my word for it there are literally thousands of testimonials of people basically disappearing from their normal lives for years at a time until they wake up broke, in debt and without any friends left. If they're lucky they can recover... some people never do.

 

[cyborg]

You can give it a try for months, and get all your money back if you discover you spent the month on the sofa watching reruns of American idol.

It is trivial that if you do nothing nothing happens. I find this spectacularly uninteresting.

 

[icerat]

That does not discredit it. It merely shows that most people lose money or break even. It's not a good business opportunity given the numbers in the ad.

Of course it discredits it. Your using an "average" when by definition "average" is at best useless and most likely highly misleading.

I completely dispute the statement that there is little or no risk. It kind of like saying you should try joining someone's church. Come on out, just one Sunday, check it out because there's no risk. Then you start listening to the very very CONvincing church leaders who try to manipulate you into becoming a hardcore member. People fall into cults all the time and that is the true risk of this "business". Don't take my word for it there are literally thousands of testimonials of people basically disappearing from their normal lives for years at a time until they wake up broke, in debt and without any friends left. If they're lucky they can recover... some people never do.

As a former psychologist and sociologist, I'm afraid I fall into the category of believing the scientific research in this field instead of the panic stricken rants of self-promoting, self-described experts like Steve Hassan and Rick Ross.

There's no such thing as brainwashing (with the possible exception of with accompanying physical coercion). People get influenced every day of their lives, and then make their own decisions. Sometimes they screwup.

Sometimes they screwup and desparately want to blame someone else rather than take personal responsibility.

It is trivial that if you do nothing nothing happens. I find this spectacularly uninteresting.

Me too. Unfortunately some people claim this spectacularly uninteresting triviality proves the Amway business is a scam.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Of course it discredits it. Your using an "average" when by definition "average" is at best useless and most likely highly misleading.

So the average sales of a particular kind of business shouldn't be factored into your decision?

As a former psychologist and sociologist, I'm afraid I fall into the category of believing the scientific research in this field instead of the panic stricken rants of self-promoting, self-described experts like Steve Hassan and Rick Ross.

There's no such thing as brainwashing (with the possible exception of with accompanying physical coercion). People get influenced every day of their lives, and then make their own decisions. Sometimes they screwup.

Sometimes they screwup and desparately want to blame someone else rather than take personal responsibility.

Well in this case we'll just have to disagree. Some ideas are more persuasive than others and often times correctness doesn't enter into it. For example many religions use brainwashing techniques. I know at least some Amway groups use similar techniques because I've seen it myself.

I'm VERY skeptical of the idea that you can't brainwash people, especially those who lack critical and skeptical thinking skills (e.g. the average person). Keep in mind that these are willing subjects who really really want to believe what they are being told is true. Frankly your reasoning here is ludicrous. The entire idea of the system is to brainwash people into doing things the way the system wants them to do it so they can be "successful".

Me too. Unfortunately some people claim this spectacularly uninteresting triviality proves the Amway business is a scam.

And some people claim it's immune from criticism because many people don't do anything. I've been very clear that I'm willing to factor out the people that do absolutely nothing. This still leaves a huge number of people who are buying the brainwashing motivational crap every month and losing money.

Icerat, I challenge you to bring some people into this discussion who are actually successful in the Amway business (emerald or above) and have them talk about their business. How long it took to build, what the expenses were like, how much they make now, how much they make from tools etc.

 

[Tex2]

This isn't a matter of brainwashing, it's a matter of being LIED to. The tool scam is the BIG LIE.

 

[icerat]

So the average sales of a particular kind of business shouldn't be factored into your decision?

Please go and find some one you trust versed in statistics and ask them if you should use an average to judge a heavily skewed or otherwise very non-normal distribution.

Well in this case we'll just have to disagree. Some ideas are more persuasive than others and often times correctness doesn't enter into it. For example many religions use brainwashing techniques. I know at least some Amway groups use similar techniques because I've seen it myself.

That's not "brainwashing", it offering people something they want or value. There are atheists that go to church because they like the social aspects. Even though I'm not actively building an Amway business I often go to seminars because I value the positive atmosphere and encouragement, and I find it helps me focus on achieving my goals in life and business. I get value out of it. I could legitimately (I don't) claim them as business deductions for my other companies. They're obviously not much good at brainwashing me "to do Amway" though - since I'm not, and indeed most of the people who attend these seminars don't do much. There's a study quoted in the Amway wikipedia article by I think some economists talking about how people get social value out of participation even if they're not getting monetary rewards. Same goes with most religions, or sports teams, whatever. People put their own value on things. I've seen for example the videos of slogan chanting at some Amway affiliated meetings. That would put me off, I wouldn't value it at all. Yet clearly others do value and enjoy that kind of thing. Just because I give it no value doesn't mean others don't.

I'm VERY skeptical of the idea that you can't brainwash people, especially those who lack critical and skeptical thinking skills (e.g. the average person).

It sounds to me like your simply talking about people not evaluating things correctly and making poor decisions. That has nothing to do with "brainwashing"

Keep in mind that these are willing subjects who really really want to believe what they are being told is true. Frankly your reasoning here is ludicrous. The entire idea of the system is to brainwash people into doing things the way the system wants them to do it so they can be "successful".

Rubbish. The entire idea of "the system" is to provide a systematic business that allows for easy expansion. Please read Michael Gerber's The E-Myth Revisted for information on the importance of a systematic business approach.

And some people claim it's immune from criticism because many people don't do anything.

It's not immune from criticism, like most things its not perfect and there's plenty of things to be critical about. But somethings, like "average income" are stupid things to be critical of, since they're effectively meaningless.

I've been very clear that I'm willing to factor out the people that do absolutely nothing. This still leaves a huge number of people who are buying the brainwashing motivational crap every month and losing money.

You are the one claiming it's "crap". On what basis are you able to make decisions on the value of things to other people?

Icerat, I challenge you to bring some people into this discussion who are actually successful in the Amway business (emerald or above) and have them talk about their business. How long it took to build, what the expenses were like, how much they make now, how much they make from tools etc.

Why? There are literally thousands of these people giving much of this information at seminars and tapes/CDs around the world. You've declared it "crap". Why is a recording of someone "crap" but their text in a forum somehow more believable? I've given figures for my business here, including rough income and expenses and simply been called a liar. Other folk are smarter than me and don't waste their time. I certainly wouldn't want my downline spending time here!

You've been given average incomes excluding retail profit. You've been directed to financial statements. You've been given overall statistics on participation rates. If I recall I've even in the past given you average "tool income" for a major group. If an Emerald came here and discussed all this with you, even if they convinced you they weren't lying, then you'd just claim they were a rare exception. If a thousand Emeralds and Diamonds came here it wouldn't make a difference.

Go find a real person where you live and ask them. They may even be willing to show you financial records. I doubt anyone would be willing to plaster them on the internet. Last year I sold one of my companies. I advertised it on the internet, but I didn't publish the financial details. I supplied them to interested parties after getting confidentiality agreements signed. Why do you think it would be any different for an Amway business?