Amway TV ad

[Eddie Dane]

Have you noticed the slant of the eyes on my son? The cute little Asian kid in my avatar? Would you like to make a further ass of yourself, or is this sufficient for one morning?

Cute kid.

I think Icerat made the point earlier that Amway is the most successful health and beauty brand in China. That doesn't just mean that a lot op people use it, but also that Amway outperforms other big brands in those markets.
That's Westen A-brands and big Chines brands (and I have a feeling that a big Chinese brand is, well, really BIG).

Icerat, Is that really what you meant to say?

 

[Pushkin]

Sorry, I missed that question.

The simple answer is that they don't tend to do the same thing, and they don't do the same things well. Amway does a much better job of, for example, teaching knowledge about the products. This isn't surprising given they developed them.

The external companies tend to do a better job in the motivation/leadership/personal development etc areas. Amway used to do this stuff as well, but the "competition" did it better and Amway effectively decided to step back in this area. One problem, particularly in the US over the past decade or so, was that they also pulled back in the product training area, which the 3rd party companies do not do well, and the business suffered as a result. You can't sell the products on price,you have to market the features and benefits. Too many people never learned this, so instead they have to market the products on the basis you can make money as a business - this can (and did) predictably lead to exactly the kind of "pyramid" claims coming here. Some folk were buying products not because they wanted them, but because they thought they could make money doing so. It's a silly concept and it doesn't, and didn't, work. A number of field leaders got kicked out of Amway a few years ago for taking this too far, stretching (Even breaking) Amway's rules to the extent it *did* verge on illegal pyramid territory.

Amway has realised their mistakes and has developed far more product training again, necessary IMO to build an Amway business profitably and sustainably.

The 3rd party companies still focus on motivation/leadership/personality development.

It's important to note that by far the majority of people who join Amway never use the 3rd party companies. It's also important to note that by far the majority of Amway's volume can ultimately be traced to people who are.

okay then, is there anything apart from product information that Amway supply for nothing?

i'm guessing that for most domestic use products that the information would run to a half page at most. It's pretty easy to predict the top ten consumer questions about a frying pan, a vitamin tablet or a soap powder into a booklet and bang that out.

what about consumer behaviour, selling techniques, market trends analysis, sales targets, regional and international performance data? all of this whilst it might be dry is bread and butter for a salesman to know and exploit their market effectively. Does Amway supply any of this?

and one further question about the personal development - given that the majority of the money being made is by people who have had it - why dont Amway offer it? surely it would boost sales? Here's a proven method to get your people to be better and they are seemingly ignoring it? that's really odd for any business however unorthodox.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I've gone to these seminars over the years when I'm not building an Amway business and had no intention to. Why? Because I enjoy them. It's a great, inspiring atmosphere. I find afterwards I'm more productive and focused in other areas of my life.

I get value from them. I doubt I'm the only one.

I go to church on Sundays. Why? Because I enjoy it. I's great and inspiring. It's better than cats, I want to go again and again and again. Wait, what was I saying? I yeah I get value from it. <- parody for those that are thick or take things to literally.

In fact these weekend seminars have more in common with Churches than ANY other business meeting I've ever seen. And before you bring up Tony Robbins there are similarities in techniques but the cult pressure is much higher at events run by the Amyway kingpins.

BTW It's obvious from your writing Icerat that they have you hook, line and sinker. You can't even see beyond the brainwashing at this point.

 

[NewtonTrino]

it's not even pyramid shaped. So much for your expertise. Generate $25000 or so sales a month consistently you're no longer connected to this supposed "top"

Except that you are still directly plugged in for tools money. The BSM organizations still push the tools to people that are very deep in their organization and still get a significantly larger cut than they do from the Amyway products. This is one of the main reasons that the tools business exists, to take full advantage of the pyramid on the kingpins OWN payment schedule which is inverted from the company plan. This is why tools are so much more profitable than product.


Bottom line is that the BSM's were NOT ORIGINALLY STARTED OUTSIDE THE PYRAMID. They weren't every originally seperate companies. This is just the modern spin to try to justify it. N21 has nothing in common with general motivational companies.

Also people note that according to Icerat's own words that these things are about motivation, not about learning about product or about sales. These are basically cult brainwashing materials. This simply isn't arguable for anyone that has listened to more than a handful of the same crap.

Fake it til you make it Icerat. Except like many you've given up actually trying to build the business but are still stuck in the cult aspect of it.

Scam, cult or ??? Doesn't matter what you call it stay far far away unless you want to either a) get rich by becoming a cult leader or b) get brainwashed and lose a bunch of money.

 

[icerat]

Don't you dare! Show me a single racist element in my line or apologize. Talk about strawmen!

Well, it read as demeaning to the Chinese to me. If I misunderstood, my apologies

What do any of the things I pointed out about Chinese consumer traits have to do with racism. I'm pointing out that the buy all kinds of things and indirectly by that, that they are a great big sales persons ideal - a market of 1.4 billion who are easily swayed by fads and trends and pressures.

So what are you suggesting then? Amway competes against all other brands in the marketplace in China, and is #1 there. Are you suggesting the chinese are more easily conned? Not discriminating? What exactly?

What about all the other asian countries where Amway products regularly win "Most Trusted Brand" surveys?

Don't asians opinions of Amway products count when assessing Amway products?

 

[NewtonTrino]

Where they or were they not all connected to the Britt/Yager system?

Yes BTW. I worked with a couple of organizations that produced their own materials as it was more profitable that way. One of them was in Canada where it made sense anyway to get more local stuff going.

And BTW there are several reasons I haven't named who I worked with.
1) NDA's in place.
2) My Dad is still involved in the business and I don't want to upset him.
3) I'm scared of reprisals against me or my family. I simply don't care enough to put myself in the line of fire publically fighting these guys.

 

[icerat]

i'm guessing that for most domestic use products that the information would run to a half page at most. It's pretty easy to predict the top ten consumer questions about a frying pan, a vitamin tablet or a soap powder into a booklet and bang that out.

Cosmetics for example are very much a seasonal thing, there's new colours and items launched a few times a year.

The Nutrilite info is not at all simple to get across

what about consumer behaviour, selling techniques, market trends analysis, sales targets, regional and international performance data? all of this whilst it might be dry is bread and butter for a salesman to know and exploit their market effectively. Does Amway supply any of this?

Short answer, yes.

and one further question about the personal development - given that the majority of the money being made is by people who have had it - why dont Amway offer it? surely it would boost sales? Here's a proven method to get your people to be better and they are seemingly ignoring it? that's really odd for any business however unorthodox.

Who would they get to teach it? Pretty much the same people that are doing it now for the other companies. Because of the way things have worked out, that would mean they'd also be going in to direct competition with people who also are responsible for a large portion of Amway's volume. Back in the early 1980s when there was really only one of these 3rd party companies (the group NT has experience with), Amway did indeed try to take some control of this stuff and from what I'm told those leaders effectively tried to blackmail Amway and got a lot of their group to boycott Amway. Amway's sales dropped significantly.

There a much smaller component of Amway's business today, and Amway has brought in all sorts of new rules to try to get things working together, including rules on how much new IBOs should spend on this stuff, requiring more materials to be approved etc etc. So they're working more closely together.

From what I understand of the setup, Amway doesn't actually have a legal foot to stand on for requiring these 3rd party companies to participate in these kind of things, but so far things are moving forward.

IMO that's a far more sensible approach then to simply try to go directly into competition with them. It also in my opinion allows for more diversity and innovation. Different groups come up with different techniques and ideas and test and trial them to see if they work. If they do they eventually work there way back to Amway and others try them out too if they want. But what if they don't want to? What if they like their way of doing things better?

They'd have to run their own seminars and training etc, and you're back where you started. If you have employees you can fire them, but with independent agents there has to be a deal more flexibility. Both ways have plusses and minuses.

 

[icerat]

Yes BTW. I worked with a couple of organizations that produced their own materials as it was more profitable that way. One of them was in Canada where it made sense anyway to get more local stuff going.

Right, so we have that cleared up. Your experience is just one part of the Amway world, and that part is a minority of the Amway world (and getting smaller, at least percentage wise).

Do you have any personal experience with groups that have not in somewhere been connected to Britt/Yager? Groups that would never have heard a speech by either of those two, or heard anything about them except perhaps in an Amagram/Achieve magazine?

 

[NewtonTrino]

What is the average number of retail customers that an ACTIVE distributor in your preferred organization (N21)? ACTIVE being defined as buying the BSM materials you said it's about 30% of distributors in the organization.

I'm betting you are going to say you don't know. How about just a GUESS then? What SHOULD it be?

 

[icerat]

Oh, earlier someone quoted an Amway Price comparison by well known anti-Amway zealot JoeCool.

I went and looked at his price comparison and it's pretty much as dishonest as they come.

Anatomy of deceit - An Amway Critic's Price Comparions

 

[icerat]

What is the average number of retail customers that an ACTIVE distributor in your preferred organization (N21)? ACTIVE being defined as buying the BSM materials you said it's about 30% of distributors in the organization.

I'm betting you are going to say you don't know. How about just a GUESS then? What SHOULD it be?

I assume you mean retail price customers

N21 teaches that all active IBOs should have at least 10 retail price customers as early as possible, and this should of course increase as you expand. Platinums and above typically report having 30+. There'll also typically be at least 10 or so wholesale price customers (registered but not building a business) for every active IBO.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Icerat, YES as in I have experience OUTSIDE of the Yager system. E.g. people that went into the BSM business for themselves including a big system in Canada. Not Yes as in I've only worked within the Yager/Britt system.

Now here's my challenge. Find me a system that DOESN'T push tools.

And please don't say N21 as they clearly recommend you buy lots of tools.

 

[NewtonTrino]

N21 teaches that all active IBOs should have at least 10 retail price customers as early as possible

I didn't ask what they teach, I asked what they achieve.

 

[icerat]

Icerat, YES as in I have experience OUTSIDE of the Yager system. E.g. people that went into the BSM business for themselves including a big system in Canada. Not Yes as in I've only worked within the Yager/Britt system.

The "big system" in Canada I suspect you are talking about was an offshot of the B/Y system. I'm fairly certain every group you worked with was either downline of Yager (like Britt) or plugged into the Yager system (like Puryear) Feel free to PM me with names if you like, I will keep the info confidential.

Now here's my challenge. Find me a system that DOESN'T push tools.

That's a silly challenge. That's what they were created for, to provide tools for Amway IBOs.

 

[icerat]

I didn't ask what they teach, I asked what they achieve.

You'd have to ask them. Recommendations of what people should have are based on what people who've achieved those levels (and maintained it and grown) actually have. Someone with 1000PV or so would have at least 10 customers.

I never had any problems getting customers. When I joined our LOS had competitions that required completed customer receipts to enter. Plenty of people entered.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Feel free to PM me with names if you like, I will keep the info confidential.

LOL LOL LOL ROTFLMAO.

That's what they were created for, to provide tools for Amway IBOs.

As usual it's all about semantics with you. How disingenuous.

How about this. Find me a LINE OF SPONSORSHIP that doesn't profit from tools or push people to attend meetings where they have to pay.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

In other words, you're accusing me of being a liar -

Well, why not? You've implied that NewtonTrino is lying...

The "big system" in Canada I suspect you are talking about was an offshot of the B/Y system. I'm fairly certain every group you worked with was either downline of Yager (like Britt) or plugged into the Yager system (like Puryear) Feel free to PM me with names if you like, I will keep the info confidential.

And you've continued to imply that I am lying...

Well, as I said I suspect the 70k number is an exaggeration,

What's good for the goose....

 

[Furcifer]

How about because you've expanded your independent sales team, and you'd like them to attend. It's going to be much harder to get them to go if you don't go. How about to learn about new products. How about to get up to date info on the company as a whole. How about to associate with other people with similar goals.

What a totally brainwashed statement to make. I'm not sure what the profit margin is but the math, as usual with Amway, isn't adding up. 70 000 people, at an average cost of about $1000 per person (accomodations, tickets, lost wages, flights etc.). You've got to sell a lot of product to cover the expenses. It just doesn't make sense.

I've gone to these seminars over the years when I'm not building an Amway business and had no intention to. Why? Because I enjoy them. It's a great, inspiring atmosphere.

Wow, just wow. You're either easily amused of brainwashed.

What a stupid statement. Ever had shares? Earning dividends makes it a pyramid? Ever built a business yourself that had employees that worked even while you weren't there? And that's a pyramid? Heck, seen any of those websites with ads on the side? If someone clicks on them, the website owner makes money! And it's a pyramid?
Get a clue.

The day Amway goes public you can talk about shares.

Well this thread sure has changed my mind. I suspected there was something fishy with Amway, but was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. After seeing the job they did on IR, and how long the effects have lasted I'm not as neutral. I'd stay away from it and never let anyone I know get messed up in the "culture".

 

[Almo]

Double X (31 day supply) $78.05
Multi Vitamins (3 month supply) $24.80 (At Costco)

One has no need to question his agenda, when he *could* have instead done this -

Nutrilite Daily Multivitamin (6 month supply) $22.49
Multi Vitamins (3 month supply) $24.80 (At Costco)

The Amway Daily Multivitamin is *cheaper* for twice as much! (and IMO clearly better).

My research says Costco vitamins are much cheaper:

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Produc...me:BC&lang=en-US&Sp=C&search=vitamins&topnav=

$16 (when not on sale as they were when I looked) for 500. You're right, I'd rather pay $24 for 180 vitamins than $16 for 500. That is a MUCH better deal.

I have the nagging feeling I made a mistake. A trump card like this can't be that wrong, can it?

 

[NewtonTrino]

After seeing the job they did on IR, and how long the effects have lasted I'm not as neutral. I'd stay away from it and never let anyone I know get messed up in the "culture".

Now you are getting the picture. The funny part is that it's incredibly worse than you probably are even picturing. Those on the inside, as usual, can't see it until they leave. Go read some of the testimonials that are around, it's absolutely astounding.