Amway TV ad

[Furcifer]

Icerat, don't even bother trying to say your organisation isn't one of the bad ones. It is and you CANNOT account for the all the tool money when challenged to do so.

Newton, to be fair to IR I have to admit I have read (during my required research) several critics that confirm these tools don't generate revenue for the company (it remains to be seen if they don't generate revenue for the slime balls this business model attracts).

 

[icerat]

Not quite: since the participants in Amway have to pay up front, it's closer to comparing to the average income from law of everyone who has paid tuition for lawschool, including those who do not complete their degree for whatever reason.

I'd agree, if Amway cost the same as lawschool. What do you think the completion rate would be if it cost $50 to get a place in law school and there was no entrance requirements?

 

[icerat]

Newton, to be fair to IR I have to admit I have read (during my required research) several critics that confirm these tools don't generate revenue for the company (it remains to be seen if they don't generate revenue for the slime balls this business model attracts).

The "tools" generate profit for the companies that make them and sell them, as you would expect. They can also make a profit for those who resell them through their organisations. This has been mentioned in Amway contracts and documents for well over a decade. In some cases the profiteering from this aspect of the business has clearly been excessive.

The group NT has some (secondhand I think) experience with is well known for having in the past a rather, shall we say, unprofessional, way of dealing with the whole area, which has caused all sorts of issues - not least of which is people like NT believing those kind of issues are endemic to Amway as a whole. As outlined earlier in the thread Amway has taken a number of steps over the years to improve things in this area.

 

[blutoski]

I'd agree, if Amway cost the same as lawschool. What do you think the completion rate would be if it cost $50 to get a place in law school and there was no entrance requirements?

Not sure, but the investment for people who attempt to build their business exceeds $50. Amway will not be refunding their invested labourtime at the prevailing minimum wage rate.

That's why it's a relatively big risk - as big a risk as any entrepreneural franchise, and in my opinion, possibly more (catchments are not controlled).

 

[NewtonTrino]

Dude, I have a bunch of experience with MULTIPLE GROUPS.

The tools money is a HUGE HUGE HUGE source of revenue for the big pins and is in fact how they make the vast majority of their money.

Keep in mind that I WROTE THE SOFTWARE THEY USED TO KEEP TRACK OF TOOLS SALES.

I have direct specific knowledge of different organizations and how much money they made from tools and what the price breakdown was up to the double diamond level.

Again, I am not speaking from what other people have said, I was directly involved as a software supplier to diamonds who produced tools. My father has been in the business for 30 years.

Icerat I'm simply arguing from a position of superior information here. You are the one who has been brainwashed into believing there is no money in tools.

You tell me how much a typical diamond makes and how many distributors are in their group and I'll keep showing you that they make WAY more from tools than from product, period.

Even if only 20% (your number!!) were plugging in and a diamond could make $50 per month in profit that still $50,000 PER MONTH which is $600k per year.

Icerat you are simply being influenced by these high level pins to participate in their scam. If you're good enough at it you can join their ranks and be in on the scam (of course since you will make your money from tools you will be subject to the whims of your upline to preserve that).

Again one more time. I have DIRECT SPECIFIC PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE of the money made in the tools business due to my relationship as a supplier of software used to run said business. Period, the end etc.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Oh and Icerat, how much does it cost to be plugged into the system in your group per distributor (e.g. what is recommended )? Where does that money go (every penny)?

Put up or shut up! You are simply a shill for a bunch of evil con artists here and someday you may come to regret your involvement with this as many many other people have.

 

[Furcifer]

Hmmm ... if nearly all of them are "pyramid shaped", and have been for hundreds of years ... what exactly *is* traditional then?

Grrr... It's the fact that these MLM's have a very broad base and a very narrow top by nature. If I open a Taco Bell I get my tacos at the same price as the next guy. You don't see Taco Bell owners buying 50 000 tacos for their immediate family to get a discount price, or enrolling them in the "Taco Bell Club" to get "Salsa" level renumeration. The business structure forces IBO's to do things that aren't exactly on the "up and up".

Pawn shops serve a purpose and operate legally, but you and I both know how prone they are to walking the thin line between legitimate business and crime syndicate. I'm not saying all pawn shops are dealing in stolen goods, but when my bike got stolen I watched the pawn shops. Needless to say, I got my bike back. (true story) They may operate legally, and they may try to do there best to do so, but the nature of the business means at some time or another they will cross the line, despite their best efforts. That's just the way it is.

 

[Furcifer]

Again one more time. I have DIRECT SPECIFIC PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE of the money made in the tools business due to my relationship as a supplier of software used to run said business. Period, the end etc.

Oh.

Well this is a skeptical forum, and you don't have proof per se. I'm not going to say I believe you implicitly, but I will say I am more inclined to believe you than a random website. Also, you just so happen to be in the right neck of the woods to make a claim you developed software in these areas. Your plausibility is above average

 

[icerat]

Dude, I have a bunch of experience with MULTIPLE GROUPS.

We've been through this before. They were all Yager system affiliates.

The tools money is a HUGE HUGE HUGE source of revenue for the big pins and is in fact how they make the vast majority of their money.

For SOME, yes.

Keep in mind that I WROTE THE SOFTWARE THEY USED TO KEEP TRACK OF TOOLS SALES.

Really? For ALL of the thousands and thousands of Diamonds?

Be honest now.

I have direct specific knowledge of different organizations and how much money they made from tools and what the price breakdown was up to the double diamond level.

Ok, what's the breakdown for Top4? N21? WWD? MMWWD? Plum Blossom?

I have similar figures for some organisations too, and you're comments reveal your narrow view - in the ones I have it doesn't matter whether they're a Diamond or Double Diamond - the price breakdown doesn't change, they're based purely on volume, not Amway pin. Basing on Amway pin was one of the things that got Yager group into trouble, especially when it didn't even matter if you were still qualified at that level!

Again, I am not speaking from what other people have said, I was directly involved as a software supplier to diamonds who produced tools. My father has been in the business for 30 years.

You're still speaking from limited experience. You have experience with that group, that's it.

Icerat I'm simply arguing from a position of superior information here. You are the one who has been brainwashed into believing there is no money in tools.

Wow, you guys really don't read at all do you? My very last post was talking about how there is money in tools, and here you say I've been brainwashed into believing there isn't!

You tell me how much a typical diamond makes and how many distributors are in their group and I'll keep showing you that they make WAY more from tools than from product, period.

That figure has alread been given. Average is $150,000 and 5-6000 registered IBOs.

Even if only 20% (your number!!) were plugging in and a diamond could make $50 per month in profit that still $50,000 PER MONTH which is $600k per year.

Just out of interest (and because I know you're going to miss out on things, because they weren't part of your experience), how exactly would someone profit $50/mth from all those people? Can you give a breakdown?

Again one more time. I have DIRECT SPECIFIC PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE of the money made in the tools business due to my relationship as a supplier of software used to run said business. Period, the end etc.

Sorry, I do not believe you. There is not and was not one single supplier of software for every BSM supplier in the world. You are not being honest, or perhaps you just don't know how much more of Amway there is than you experienced.

Even within the groups you worked with, I think you're probably also overstating things. Why? Because I suspect the software wasn't used by each of the several hundred Yager (and Puryear) Diamonds - it was for the Diamonds involved in producing and promoting the systems. One of the reasons Yager system has been involved in many lawsuits is because this was in many ways done on a favouritism basis, so one Diamond would get one deal, and another would get another deal etc etc. Some folk were making and selling tapes to other Diamonds (more profitable), other Diamonds were buying tapes (less profitable).

BTW, former Diamond Doug Wead has had some interesting posts on all of this over on his blog. One of the things he points out is that some Diamonds made a lot of money out supplying tools, others actually lost money. A few of course built large companies to tap into this market, and made very big money.

 

[icerat]

Grrr... It's the fact that these MLM's have a very broad base and a very narrow top by nature. If I open a Taco Bell I get my tacos at the same price as the next guy. You don't see Taco Bell owners buying 50 000 tacos for their immediate family to get a discount price, or enrolling them in the "Taco Bell Club" to get "Salsa" level renumeration. The business structure forces IBO's to do things that aren't exactly on the "up and up".

So the guy who made the salsa isn't say one guy, who sells to multiple wholesalers, who sell to multiple retailers, who sell to multiple customers, with there being more total customers than retailers, and more retailers than wholesalers, and more wholesalers than manufacturers aka a pyramid shape?

And I seriously doubt that a guy who owns 50 taco bells doing 50 times the volume of some dude with 1 taco bell isn't getting better prices on his ingredients.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Icerat,
Can I just ask directly, as it seems there is only one internet living legend in the defence of Amway....
Are you David Steadsen?

 

[icerat]

Icerat,
Can I just ask directly, as it seems there is only one internet living legend in the defence of Amway....
Are you David Steadsen?

Not when you spell it that way.

 

[NewtonTrino]

So that's a yes you are him?

Look you have backed up my claims with anything substantial. You are saying that 20% of distributors participate in the system.

HOW MUCH MONEY IS EXPECTED TO BE PUT INTO THE SYSTEM IN YOUR GROUP ICERAT. WHAT IS THE RECOMMENDED AMOUNT THAT PEOPLE SPEND? WHY WILL YOU NOT ANSWER THIS QUESTION?

Once you give us those numbers we can easily work out how much a typical diamond will make from tools. With 5000 distributors you would have to be a moron not to make more than $150k from 5000 people who hang on your every word. Even a modest $10 from each distributor per month (buying a few cd's will get you there) is $50k per month in profit.

Also please note that Icerat has refused to give any real number for his business or anyone else that he personally knows. Amway pins hide their incomes because they are either way too large or way too small.

Icerat how much profit did you declare from your Amway business on your tax return last year? Put up or shut up.

As for those lurking this thread please be extremely extremely careful about getting caught up in this. The functions are very much designed to brainwash people and even smart people can get caught up in this stuff. Anyone signing up for this is playing with fire.

Also I would still like answers to the questions I asked several posts ago. You know the ones you think were too sarcastic to answer.

 

[corplinx]

The sad thing is, I went to an IBM technical seminar once and a Quixtar guy was there also getting training. A few beers and he was lamenting the fact that he worked for those clowns. When he went to work for them (designing java webapp services) he was told all about how the old Amway was dead and they were going to use internet direct sales in the future.

Apparently they have to lie to potential high skilled workers to lure them their HQ.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Not when you spell it that way.

Thank you. I'm assuming the clever wording is likely a form of confirmation. (Steadson... my bad. aka IBOFIGHTBACK, aka INSIDER, aka gawdonlyknows how many others.)

Have to reckon there's only one person with the monomaniacal staying power to go through this. Mere mortals would've caved a long time ago.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Sorry, I do not believe you. There is not and was not one single supplier of software for every BSM supplier in the world. You are not being honest, or perhaps you just don't know how much more of Amway there is than you experienced.

I never claimed I supplied software for every single distributor in the world who sells tools. I did however supply software to some large groups. I got to see the breakdown charts for profit.

Now keep in mind there were 2 ways of tracking profit for tools and I supported them both. One was just a flat price break based on your pin (the "old school" way) and the other was a BV based system where you got discounts based on volume.

Both were insanely more profitable than the Amway products (as you can see by doing some simple math).

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Thought didn't even enter my mind. As it happens, though, Amway is listed by Forbes as one of the largest private companies in the US (note, 2007 data) and by Deloitte as one of the world's top retailers.

Year after year, the Bible is a best-seller.

That statistic, however, says nothing about its legitimacy.

 

[corplinx]

Year after year, the Bible is a best-seller.

That statistic, however, says nothing about its legitimacy.

I would like to see a breakdown of the 7.1 billion in revenue.

 

[Furcifer]

And I seriously doubt that a guy who owns 50 taco bells doing 50 times the volume of some dude with 1 taco bell isn't getting better prices on his ingredients.

I can't speak for everyone, but not in my experience. Almost all franchises operate on consistency, they dictate purchase from suppliers in order to ensure this. You have no other choice but to buy from a certain supplier in order to conform to corporate standards. This removes any incentive for the supplier to offer competative pricing. Usually the plus side to this is that you get a cut on the minimum order to avoid delivery fees. Even if a supplier was inclined to offer a high volume purchaser better pricing, corporate would put a stop to it. It isn't good business in the event that one outlet discovers another "franchise brother" is getting better deals. That's why the supplier offers the best pricing they can to the entire franchise, they base it on the total volume all the outlets will do, not just a select few. Pretty smart eh?

 

[icerat]

Warning to the lurker: lots of jargon to come!

HOW MUCH MONEY IS EXPECTED TO BE PUT INTO THE SYSTEM IN YOUR GROUP ICERAT. WHAT IS THE RECOMMENDED AMOUNT THAT PEOPLE SPEND? WHY WILL YOU NOT ANSWER THIS QUESTION?

Partially because I'd have to look it up to make sure I gave you an accurate figure for the US. I haven't been actively building an Amway business for quite some time.

Partially because it's only one part of the equation, and I know where you're going with it. You're going to do an analysis based on lots of guesses on profiibality, and most certainly ignore the fact that modern "systems" don't operate anything like the individual Diamond systems your clearly familiar with. I'm yet to see a single critics tool "analysis" take in to account the dozens of offices and hundreds of staff these companies have, let alone taxes, lawyers, accountants etc etc etc.

Once you give us those numbers we can easily work out how much a typical diamond will make from tools. With 5000 distributors you would have to be a moron not to make more than $150k from 5000 people who hang on your every word. Even a modest $10 from each distributor per month (buying a few cd's will get you there) is $50k per month in profit.

Uhuh

Let's see, 6000 distributors, be extremely generous and say 30% on professional CEP (that also makes up for some individual purchases) ... that's 6 CDs/mth that means oh ... 10800 CDs a month. Current rebate for that in one very large system is $1.80/CD ... so $19440 total.

But wait! We can't stop there .... Those 10800 CDs mostly came from the aveage 6 Platinums legs and total average of 32 Platinums, each with say a generous 30% on CEP (52 distributors) on CEP, so the CD volume for each leg is 32*52*6/6=1664CDs, qualifying each leg leader for a $0.75/CD volume rebate, or $1248/leg or $7488 to come out of the Diamonds leg, leaving a "profit" of $11952.

So, your estimate - $50,000. A more realistic figure, using a real tool rebate scale, plus real statistics on average Diamond and Platinum size gives a figure nearly one fifth the size. In reality, it's much lower as Platinums tend to have fewer people on CEP, and Diamonds tends to have a couple of big legs which would qualify for bigger volume rebates.

Also please note that Icerat has refused to give any real number for his business or anyone else that he personally knows. Amway pins hide their incomes because they are either way too large or way too small.

Icerat how much profit did you declare from your Amway business on your tax return last year? Put up or shut up.

If you really want to know, I gave my Amway business to my former wife a decade ago. Since then I've moved countries, travelled a lot, built a couple of small Amway businesses, mostly to help some others, made a bit of money, founded and sold a couple of other companies, made money, lost money, done lots of other things. Right now I'm pretty much just one of those happy customers that Skeptic and co believe doesn't exist. Oh, though I did get bored while living in Paris for a few months and somehow ended up getting in to arguments with anti-amway zealots online. In hindsight I probably should have spent the time learning better French

As for those lurking this thread please be extremely extremely careful about getting caught up in this. The functions are very much designed to brainwash people and even smart people can get caught up in this stuff. Anyone signing up for this is playing with fire.

Oh yes! Be careful! You're all so weak-minded we'll just suck you right in.

Also I would still like answers to the questions I asked several posts ago. You know the ones you think were too sarcastic to answer.

A lack of sincerity, not sarcasm.