You're losing money, like all other ambots who aren't emeralds or above and therefore in the "tool" scam, aren't you?
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- Thread starter Almo
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You're losing money, like all other ambots who aren't emeralds or above and therefore in the "tool" scam, aren't you?
NewtonTrino
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Nah, he's not losing money. He doesn't even have an Amway business. He's just a paid shill that runs a pro amway web site and runs around the internet defending N21 at all costs.
BenBurch
Gatekeeper of The Left
Its a freaking scam, and people who push it often know this, and are complicit in it.
NobbyNobbs
Gazerbeam's Protege
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I can give you my experience, although this was 15 years ago. If icerat would like to update my information, he's welcome to.
It was highly recommended that you subscribe to 2 tapes a week, at $6 each ($48 a month). Then you had an open meeting to go to, which was only $5, but you always went out to dinner with your up- and downline afterwards. Once a quarter there was a convention, which ran $200-$400. None of this includes transportation costs.
It was also highly recommended that you present the business plan 4-5 times a week. There was gas money involved there, as well as materials you left with the prospect. Although you (usually) get the materials back, you need to buy them to begin with, and again each time they were updated.
So not counting food, transportation, and time spent away from home and family, there was an average of $100-$150 a month in tools that you needed to put out if you were "doing it right".
Mind you, this doesn't include the product side at all. After all, how could you expect your downline to use the products if you don't? To get the recommended number of points each month, you needed to spend (or directly sell) $200-$250 on products.
Again, this was awhile ago, so if icerat can present updated numbers, I'd be interested in seeing how things have changed.
It was highly recommended that you subscribe to 2 tapes a week, at $6 each ($48 a month). Then you had an open meeting to go to, which was only $5, but you always went out to dinner with your up- and downline afterwards. Once a quarter there was a convention, which ran $200-$400. None of this includes transportation costs.
It was also highly recommended that you present the business plan 4-5 times a week. There was gas money involved there, as well as materials you left with the prospect. Although you (usually) get the materials back, you need to buy them to begin with, and again each time they were updated.
So not counting food, transportation, and time spent away from home and family, there was an average of $100-$150 a month in tools that you needed to put out if you were "doing it right".
Mind you, this doesn't include the product side at all. After all, how could you expect your downline to use the products if you don't? To get the recommended number of points each month, you needed to spend (or directly sell) $200-$250 on products.
Again, this was awhile ago, so if icerat can present updated numbers, I'd be interested in seeing how things have changed.
NewtonTrino
Illuminator
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Argh! Second time typing this because of how much vBulletin sucks.
Now that we have some numbers we can at least do the math for the "old system" that Icerat claims doesn't exist anymore. I'm going to try and use very fair numbers here to give you an idea of how much money exists in the tools system.
Because we have gotten some numbers from Icerate we can make a few guesses. First off the avg. diamond has 5000 distributors in their group. Approximately 30% of these are on "the system". I'm going to assume a 25% profit margin on tools for the upline diamond. Diamond is where you really start getting the bigger share of tools money and I think this number is pretty realistic. Icerat of course will claim they only get a small portion of this and that they have to pay a lot of downline money out of this. He isn't able to account for all of the money in the tools as he only has one of the rebate charts. There are additional bonuses that kick in that he's unaware of or is hiding his knowledge of. Of course if you are a diamond with six diamond legs you will definitely have to fight for that money. In other words depending on your organizational makeup and maturity you will get more or less money so some Diamonds are going to make less. Keep in mind this doesn't really invalidate the math, it just makes Amway looks like an even worse business. You are still paying the money and your upline are still profiting, it may just be a different Diamond than you think.
Diamonds make an avg. of $150,000 per year. of Amway income I'm not sure but I'm pretty sure this only includes product related expenses not things like driving around showing the plan. Keep in mind this typically involves both people in the household working the business together. Honestly given how much work it is to get to Diamond this doesn't really sound that great to me. Icerat will claim this is true residual income but I think this is going to be highly dependent on what your organization is like. Most Diamond level business would collapse without a lot of work IMHO.
Nobby says $100-150 per month in tools expenses going to the upline. Lets take the LOW number $100. Personally I think this is probably a good average. Many people will spend a lot more but some people won't spend much.
Doing some math
$100 gross * 25% profit marging = $30 a month profit per active distributor
5000 distributors with 30% of them active in buying tools give you 1500 active distributors
$25 a month times 1500 distributors = $37,500 PER MONTH or $450,000 PER YEAR
This is 3x what they are making on Amyway product ($150k). It interesting to work out the kind of money the people much higher in the pyramid make (say 100,000 distributors in your pyramid).
Now that we have some numbers we can at least do the math for the "old system" that Icerat claims doesn't exist anymore. I'm going to try and use very fair numbers here to give you an idea of how much money exists in the tools system.
Because we have gotten some numbers from Icerate we can make a few guesses. First off the avg. diamond has 5000 distributors in their group. Approximately 30% of these are on "the system". I'm going to assume a 25% profit margin on tools for the upline diamond. Diamond is where you really start getting the bigger share of tools money and I think this number is pretty realistic. Icerat of course will claim they only get a small portion of this and that they have to pay a lot of downline money out of this. He isn't able to account for all of the money in the tools as he only has one of the rebate charts. There are additional bonuses that kick in that he's unaware of or is hiding his knowledge of. Of course if you are a diamond with six diamond legs you will definitely have to fight for that money. In other words depending on your organizational makeup and maturity you will get more or less money so some Diamonds are going to make less. Keep in mind this doesn't really invalidate the math, it just makes Amway looks like an even worse business. You are still paying the money and your upline are still profiting, it may just be a different Diamond than you think.
Diamonds make an avg. of $150,000 per year. of Amway income I'm not sure but I'm pretty sure this only includes product related expenses not things like driving around showing the plan. Keep in mind this typically involves both people in the household working the business together. Honestly given how much work it is to get to Diamond this doesn't really sound that great to me. Icerat will claim this is true residual income but I think this is going to be highly dependent on what your organization is like. Most Diamond level business would collapse without a lot of work IMHO.
Nobby says $100-150 per month in tools expenses going to the upline. Lets take the LOW number $100. Personally I think this is probably a good average. Many people will spend a lot more but some people won't spend much.
Doing some math
$100 gross * 25% profit marging = $30 a month profit per active distributor
5000 distributors with 30% of them active in buying tools give you 1500 active distributors
$25 a month times 1500 distributors = $37,500 PER MONTH or $450,000 PER YEAR
This is 3x what they are making on Amyway product ($150k). It interesting to work out the kind of money the people much higher in the pyramid make (say 100,000 distributors in your pyramid).
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Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
Well, just when I was going to post that the staying powers of Icerat/IBOFIGHTER were truly amazing, the whole thread winds down.
I recommended this thread for the Spotlight. I think, even with a lot of rancor and snarling, it's a great indication of the kind of very valuable work a bunch of amateur sleuths can do. I don't think there's a doubt in anyone's mind (except Icerat, and he's apparently paid to doubt) just what Amway/Quixtar are all about.
I recommended this thread for the Spotlight. I think, even with a lot of rancor and snarling, it's a great indication of the kind of very valuable work a bunch of amateur sleuths can do. I don't think there's a doubt in anyone's mind (except Icerat, and he's apparently paid to doubt) just what Amway/Quixtar are all about.
NewtonTrino
Illuminator
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Icerat never gives up, he merely retreats to lick his wounds.
Keep in mind this guy is a prolific poster about this all over the internet including his own pretty large web site, comments on tons of message boards and comments on peoples blogs.
Keep in mind this guy is a prolific poster about this all over the internet including his own pretty large web site, comments on tons of message boards and comments on peoples blogs.
Almo
Masterblazer
Heh. This thread even passed Diggy's gold thread for views, and it's very high on the list for post count in the EB&F sub forum.
Lots of good argument/counter argument in here.
$6 billion over 3 million business operators... horrible.
Lots of good argument/counter argument in here.
$6 billion over 3 million business operators... horrible.
NewtonTrino
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I honestly don't get why anyone would want to get involved with the ability to do some research on the internet.
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
I think that came out a little differently than you meant, but I know what you're saying.
I think that's the battle line. IBOFIGHTER/David admits he's not trying to convert the skeptics here. He's playing to the peanut gallery. That's why he's all over the intertubes, because there's just so much work for one shill to accomplish.
And that's why I continued in this thread, and I think several of us have said the same thing. It's for the undecided. We're not going to convert David to Amway Skeptic. He's too far into the woods. But people thinking of getting involved may have second thoughts because of some of the stuff posted here (and particular kudos to you NewtonTrino) and that is a good thing, IMHO.
NewtonTrino
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Wow, I wasn't even high when I wrote that. I must have been at the office looking at the timestamp.
Eddie Dane
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In the mid nineties I saw a rather funny film called GO.
One of the story lines is about two gay guys who try to score some XTC and get busted by the police. They are scared to death by the situation, but the cop agrees to let them go. On one condition: they have to come to the cop's house for dinner.
Completely freaked out by the whole situation the ring the doorbell at the agreed time, bottle of wine in hand.
They have dinner with the cop and his attractive wife, and there's just something weird about the conversation. Like a hidden agenda.
More and more they start to feel that they are supposed to get into some sort of sex thing with the couple.
Then the cop shows them around the house and to the bedroom they go. They look completely freaked out by this point.
The cop jumps on the bed and goes: 'so, what do you think of this bed?' 'It's really so soft, try it out.'
Looking completely miserable, they get on the bed. 'Oh, yeah, its really soft.'
Then the cop goed into this whole monologue about how all the stuff in his house is from this great brand he's working for. Really good quality. And, would they be interested in a great business opportunity?
No pressure of course.
Sorry, I just had to think of this. It had me in stitches.
One of the story lines is about two gay guys who try to score some XTC and get busted by the police. They are scared to death by the situation, but the cop agrees to let them go. On one condition: they have to come to the cop's house for dinner.
Completely freaked out by the whole situation the ring the doorbell at the agreed time, bottle of wine in hand.
They have dinner with the cop and his attractive wife, and there's just something weird about the conversation. Like a hidden agenda.
More and more they start to feel that they are supposed to get into some sort of sex thing with the couple.
Then the cop shows them around the house and to the bedroom they go. They look completely freaked out by this point.
The cop jumps on the bed and goes: 'so, what do you think of this bed?' 'It's really so soft, try it out.'
Looking completely miserable, they get on the bed. 'Oh, yeah, its really soft.'
Then the cop goed into this whole monologue about how all the stuff in his house is from this great brand he's working for. Really good quality. And, would they be interested in a great business opportunity?
No pressure of course.
Sorry, I just had to think of this. It had me in stitches.
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NewtonTrino
Illuminator
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Eddie, I totally remember that scene and thought it was hilarious. The creepy vibe given off by the couple was bang on.
NobbyNobbs
Gazerbeam's Protege
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Bump for icerat. I find it curious that he posted in this thread multiple times a day for quite awhile, but now that's I've brought up some numbers he seems to have disappeared.
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
While I'd love to think that the place was just too much for him to handle, I doubt it.... He's just got so many typing fingers and there are so many sites he has to go to in order to bring his counterclaims.
I do think, though, that this has been a battle he had no idea would be so "epic" in proportion. I believe he's used to just out-talking and out-waiting the Nay votes.
Almo
Masterblazer
My suspicion is he comes here for practice. He's unlikely to run into such heavy opposition elsewhere.
NewtonTrino
Illuminator
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Who knows, he's random. He does post in other threads here.
I was up in Canada this weekend at a friends wedding so I figure I would check to see if I missed any action.
I was up in Canada this weekend at a friends wedding so I figure I would check to see if I missed any action.
icerat
Philosopher
Quite simple really ... as much as I just loooveee chatting to you guys, you don't rank all that high in my priorities.
Contrary to the propoganda constantly getting spread, I don't get paid by anyone to promote/support Amway. I've stated that often. Amway's even stated it on one of their blogs. I've spent some time on here because I'm a lifetime rationalist and skeptic and it frankly upsets me that one of the best forums for supposedly rational discussion simply throws it out the window when it comes to this topic.
So, been busy with some other priorities, I'll spend some time going through the posts I've missed.
Contrary to the propoganda constantly getting spread, I don't get paid by anyone to promote/support Amway. I've stated that often. Amway's even stated it on one of their blogs. I've spent some time on here because I'm a lifetime rationalist and skeptic and it frankly upsets me that one of the best forums for supposedly rational discussion simply throws it out the window when it comes to this topic.
So, been busy with some other priorities, I'll spend some time going through the posts I've missed.
Almo
Masterblazer
I don't think you've missed much. But it frankly upsets me to see a lifelong rationalist and skeptic fooled by the Amway scam.
icerat
Philosopher
Those guys were on the "insincere" list.
I'll assume it's sincere, but to be honest I'm skeptical. I have no desire to "sponsor" you so it's all academic anyway.
What's involved really depends on what people want to achieve and when, mediated by how much time they can put in to it.
Put simply we have distribution rights to over 450 Amway manufactured products, and they compensate us for any sales volume we help generate. As such, the income available is effectively unlimited, it's governed by the potential market for any or all of the current products, and any or all future products. Generate more sales volume, you earn more, simple as that. The top earners with Amway are getting 7 and 8 figure incomes (from Amway alone, not any side businesses), so clearly there's money there, but jsut as clearly those folk have worked hard for a long time to develop businesses of that size.
Give me an example of what kind of income would be interesting and I'll do my best to answer what the stats show is generally needed to obtain it.
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