Amway TV ad

[jj]

Oh right, so all those deoderant ads implying that by buying their products aren't "selling a dream of success"?

Whooeee, dude, take things out of context often?

 

[icerat]

Whooeee, dude, take things out of context often?

My point was that marketing is marketing. All marketing is selling "success" in some fashion or another.

Do some Amway folk take that too far? Absolutely
Do some other marketing folk take it too far in their arenas? Absolutely

 

[Dave_46]

Peter Bowditch (spelling?) knows a bit about Amway, and has been campaigning for some time.

His website has info on the current front page.

Link http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/index.html

I think he posts here as PeterB

Dave

 

[YoPopa]

My point was that marketing is marketing. All marketing is selling "success" in some fashion or another.

Your point about marketing was off the mark as was already pointed out. To blithely say that "marketing is marketing" in this context is meaningless and absurd.

Marketing a product is not at all the same thing as marketing a business to sell that product.

Do some Amway folk take that too far? Absolutely
Do some other marketing folk take it too far in their arenas? Absolutely

More meaningless drivel unless your point is that some people are sleazy weasels 'and so what?'

The problem is that the MLM concept is a den for sleazy weasels. I followed the link that Dave_46 provided and found some interesting links on that site as well. It seems by the proliferation of lawsuits against Amway that I am not alone in my judgement.

From the ratbags website The position of the UK government is:

* Amway's product are not marketable. They are priced far higher than comparable goods. They are seldom sold to anyone other than the salespeople themselves.
* More than 99% of all Amway salespeople lose money. More than half quit the scheme within a year, after suffering financial losses
* The only way to make money in Amway is through "endless chain recruiting", a flawed and fraudulent system that guarantees only the top recruiters can be profitable and is illegal in England and most other places on the planet. (Some have termed this scheme a "closed market swindle.")
* Extreme deception is used to lure people into the scam

 

[Almo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYHeeAIqir0

Got the link to the ad.

Love those figures, man.

 

[dudalb]

Long ago I found out that to the true believers, AMWAY is more like a religious cult then a business.

 

[Almo]

Long ago I found out that to the true believers, AMWAY is more like a religious cult then a business.

The only way to get people to accept the ridiculous nature of the business model is to engage the part of the brain used to accept religion. This has unfortunate consequences.

 

[icerat]

Marketing a product is not at all the same thing as marketing a business to sell that product.

If one of your products is a business opportunity, it's not that much different

More meaningless drivel unless your point is that some people are sleazy weasels 'and so what?'

The problem is that the MLM concept is a den for sleazy weasels. I followed the link that Dave_46 provided and found some interesting links on that site as well. It seems by the proliferation of lawsuits against Amway that I am not alone in my judgement.

It's a 50 yr old $7.2billion dollar company operating in 50+ countries. As such it has very few lawsuits.

From the ratbags website The position of the UK government is:

[/quote]

It's the position of one part of UK government. The court dismissed the case. The DTI/BERR seems to have gotten their education about Amway the same place many other have - internet websites.

The ratbags site lists the same old same old bs.

It's amazing how otherwise rational folk can become dogmatic and fixed in their beliefs on extremely limited information and even less experience.

The ratbags guy lists many things that are simply false (eg if it was a real business you could sell it - well, you can sell it, and it happens relatively frequently).

You have to ask yourself if a company can last 50 years, operate in 50+ countries, have awards from the UN, works in close partnership with UNICEF, have more than one of it's owners head of the American Chamber of Commerce, had numerous American Presidents speak at it's seminars, won many independent consumer awards, win corporate citizenship awards, have numerous positive books written about it, including some by highly respected business academics, even have a PBS documentary, etc etc etc etc

Somewhere along the line you have to ask yourself - maybe, just maybe there's something going on that you've missed.

Think about it.

 

[YoPopa]

If one of your products is a business opportunity, it's not that much different

It's a huge difference when the "business opportunity" results in 99% of new business people losing money. Selling that kind of "product" requires some twisted logic and broken ethics.

The court dismissed the case.

The court did not dismiss the case! The case was settled and Amway had to give up quite a bit to settle.

You have to ask yourself if a company can last 50 years, operate in 50+ countries, have awards from the UN, works in close partnership with UNICEF, have more than one of it's owners head of the American Chamber of Commerce, had numerous American Presidents speak at it's seminars, won many independent consumer awards, win corporate citizenship awards, have numerous positive books written about it, including some by highly respected business academics, even have a PBS documentary, etc etc etc etc

Somewhere along the line you have to ask yourself - maybe, just maybe there's something going on that you've missed.

You can make a much better case of appeal to authority for most religions. Appeal to authority may work with your downliners but it carries no weight here.

 

[RPG Advocate]

Long ago I found out that to the true believers, AMWAY is more like a religious cult then a business.

Not Amway by itself, rather the secondary businesses, usually called Amway Motivational Organizations (AMOs) that use cult-like recruiting tactics. Of course, some 95% of the ambots one encounters will be a member of one of these AMOs. These scummy organizations have their own names, such as:

• Britt Worldwide
• Worldwide Dream Builders
• Network 21
• Team of Destiny (defunct)
• ...and more

These organizations try to create an insular world for their members by limiting their time to participate in non-Amway activities by getting them to do something Awmay-related almost every day, like showing the "plan" (Amway's sales and marketing plan, the hook for suckers), going to seminars, or going to big weekend functions. In cult psychology, it's called mileu control and it's quite effective in shaping people's attitudes when certain pressure tactics are added. In the context of Amway, the pressure comes from one's upline; they claim that your Amway business can't succeed without books, tapes, seminars, and functions. If the recruit doesn't "plug in to the system", he will be abandoned by his upline. Further, talking to distributors not in one's AMO or distributors that aren't upline or downline will be met with sanction ("don't talk crossline").

These AMOs are really authoritarian, just like your neighborhood fundamentalist chruch, so yeah, making it like a religious cult is a deliberate attempt by the kingpins (generally considered those who have reached the "diamond" level or above) to keep the sheep in line and reap huge profits.

 

[icerat]

It's a huge difference when the "business opportunity" results in 99% of new business people losing money. Selling that kind of "product" requires some twisted logic and broken ethics.

Or an approach that doesn't lead to that.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics. It can also be shown that >90% of people who do what is suggested to succeed in Amway, do in fact succeed.

The court did not dismiss the case! The case was settled and Amway had to give up quite a bit to settle.

Um, no, the case was dismissed. See BERR vs Amway UK

It is under appeal on a technicality. The primary concern was that Amway reps were overpromoting the opportunity and Amway was not overseeing this properly. Now they are.

I don't call that "giving up quite a bit", indeed I consider it an improvement.

You can make a much better case of appeal to authority for most religions. Appeal to authority may work with your downliners but it carries no weight here.

It was not an appeal to authority, I made no conclusion. What I suggested was that, based on the preprodonderous of evidence of others independent findings, perhaps you need to consider you may not have an accurate picture and should investigate further - with an open mind.

In my experience, even amongst skeptics the mind is remarkably closed on this issue., which I have to say has been extremely disappointing. It's one thing to have a particular belief based on past experience and limited knowledge. It's another thing altogether to be completely dismissive of the possiblity you are at least partly wrong.

 

[icerat]

These organizations try to create an insular world for their members by limiting their time to participate in non-Amway activities by getting them to do something Awmay-related almost every day, like showing the "plan" (Amway's sales and marketing plan, the hook for suckers), going to seminars, or going to big weekend functions.

This has to be one of the silliest things I've read. It's like saying a personal trainer is trying to limit your time to participate in non-exercise activities by suggesting you exercise!

Clearly success in a business required learning what to do and doing it.

In cult psychology, it's called mileu control and it's quite effective in shaping people's attitudes when certain pressure tactics are added. In the context of Amway, the pressure comes from one's upline; they claim that your Amway business can't succeed without books, tapes, seminars, and functions. If the recruit doesn't "plug in to the system", he will be abandoned by his upline. Further, talking to distributors not in one's AMO or distributors that aren't upline or downline will be met with sanction ("don't talk crossline").

The regular list of falsehoods and generalizations. How much research have you done into Amway exactly? How many different groups have you evaluated and seen their approach?

These AMOs are really authoritarian, just like your neighborhood fundamentalist chruch, so yeah, making it like a religious cult is a deliberate attempt by the kingpins (generally considered those who have reached the "diamond" level or above) to keep the sheep in line and reap huge profits.

Again, how many of these different groups have you had experience with? Clearly you've done an enormous amount of research to be able to make such sweeping claims about dozens, perhaps hundreds, of non-homogenous groups of literally millions of people.

So please, share your research, or your sources. And I'm not interested in internet gossip sites or self-proclaimed experts. Actual indepedent folk with some credibility who've done actual research and can provide *there* research and sources.

 

[YoPopa]

Lies, damn lies, and statistics. It can also be shown that >90% of people who do what is suggested to succeed in Amway, do in fact succeed.

The 99% who lost money just could not follow instructions? Blame the victims. Nice, real nice.

Um, no, the case was dismissed.

To simply say dismissed is a half truth intended to create the impression that there were no merits to the case and the judge told everybody to go home. You should know that is not what happened. The judge approved a settlement.

See BERR vs Amway UK

Thanks for the link to an AMWAY wiki. It shows even more conclusively how right RPG Advocate was regarding the increasingly cult-like behaviors of the devotees.

It is under appeal on a technicality.

Not "a technicality" but several technicalities. Again from the ratbags website:

• Amway's product are not marketable. They are priced far higher than comparable goods. They are seldom sold to anyone other than the salespeople themselves.
• More than 99% of all Amway salespeople lose money. More than half quit the scheme within a year, after suffering financial losses
• The only way to make money in Amway is through "endless chain recruiting", a flawed and fraudulent system that guarantees only the top recruiters can be profitable and is illegal in England and most other places on the planet. (Some have termed this scheme a "closed market swindle.")
• Extreme deception is used to lure people into the scam.

 

[PeterB]

The ratbags site lists the same old same old bs.

...

The ratbags guy lists many things that are simply false (eg if it was a real business you could sell it - well, you can sell it, and it happens relatively frequently).

Hello Icerat.

Nice name, Icerat.

Why do you post anonymously, Icerat? Ashamed?

Why do you call me "the ratbags guy" rather than use my name, Icerat? My name is easily found by anyone with any ability at finding things out (which excludes Amway true believers, of course).

Why don't you take me on on my website, Icerat, rather than here? I promise to publish your idiocy words.

If Amway has sales of only 6 billion, Icerat, how many big pins can be turning over billions individually? Or are you lying about that too? I must add it to the collection of arithmetical myths that true believers spout without thinking.

 

[icerat]

The 99% who lost money just could not follow instructions? Blame the victims. Nice, real nice.

And what did you just do, credit them with no free will? It has an extremely low cost of entry, with money back guarantee. Many people get involved then chose it's not for them. That doesn't make them failures or victims.

To simply say dismissed is a half truth intended to create the impression that there were no merits to the case and the judge told everybody to go home. You should know that is not what happened. The judge approved a settlement.

No, that's not true. In fact, BERR was not at all happy with what the Judge decided and has challenged the findings on the grounds he didn't have the right. There was no settlement at all between BERR and Amway.

What the judge did was highlight some issues with how Amway was operating prior to the BERR investigation, and accept undertakings from Amway that they would continue operations with the changes already implemented.

Thanks for the link to an AMWAY wiki. It shows even more conclusively how right RPG Advocate was regarding the increasingly cult-like behaviors of the devotees.

Oh yeah, having an open wiki with information is just so cult-like

Not "a technicality" but several technicalities. Again from the ratbags website:

[*] Amway's product are not marketable. They are priced far higher than comparable goods. They are seldom sold to anyone other than the salespeople themselves.

FALSE. Amway's products have won many independent consumer awards around the world. There are hundreds of millions of dollars worth of products sold to people who have no connection with the Amway opportunity. Furthermore, as the FTC has stated on numerous occasions, many people join MLM companies not to be salespeople, but to simply purchase the products at distributor pricing. They are not salespeople, merely legitimate customers getting better pricing.

[*] More than 99% of all Amway salespeople lose money. More than half quit the scheme within a year, after suffering financial losses

FALSE. While more than half do indeed quit in the first year (indeed in the first few months), they are able to receive a full refund on anything they purchased if they do not feel it was of value. The great majority have zero expenses about from their intial registration fee (which doesn't even exist in some countries). With zero expenses, how do you lose money?

[*] The only way to make money in Amway is through "endless chain recruiting", a flawed and fraudulent system that guarantees only the top recruiters can be profitable and is illegal in England and most other places on the planet. (Some have termed this scheme a "closed market swindle.")

FALSE. It is (a) perfectly possible to make money through zero recruiting. (b) it is not an "endless chain". The MLM model itself has built in limits on the "size" of the chain. In the FTCs investigation in the 70s they found the number of steps in the "chain" was on average not significantly different to traditional product distribution. (c) A English judge just dismissed this claim about Amway. Not so many months ago a US judge dismissed much the same claim. If Amway is indeed operating in the illegal manner you think, why do those entrusted with those laws keep finding you are incorrect?

[*] Extreme deception is used to lure people into the scam.

Unfortunately, this can and does happen and something I for one are committed to helping stop. It does nothing to build a successful business and damages the businesses reputation for those who are running it professionally.

 

[icerat]

Hello Icerat.

Nice name, Icerat.

Why do you post anonymously, Icerat? Ashamed?

Now your being silly. Are all the others using nicks "ashamed"?

Why do you call me "the ratbags guy" rather than use my name, Icerat? My name is easily found by anyone with any ability at finding things out (which excludes Amway true believers, of course).

Because I couldn't be bothered looking it up. Sorry, you're not that important to me.

Why don't you take me on on my website, Icerat, rather than here? I promise to publish your idiocy words.

I have before, no interest in doing it again.

If Amway has sales of only 6 billion, Icerat, how many big pins can be turning over billions individually? Or are you lying about that too? I must add it to the collection of arithmetical myths that true believers spout without thinking.

$7.1 billion now. How many could be turning over billions individually? No idea, ask a better mathematician than me. Hmm, then again, not that hard - the theoretical limit, ignoring the intricacies of international and foster sponsorship, would be 6.1 billion plus 1.

Reality is of course nothing like that, but my guess is your understanding of the model is so poor you don't even comprehend my answer.

 

[krelnik]

FALSE. Amway's products have won many independent consumer awards around the world.

OK. Since there are "many", can you name five of them? Please include the name of the award, which product won it, when, and provide supporting hyperlinks to non-Amway sites.

Thank you.

 

[JoeEllison]

SCAmway had to change their name in America because everyone is onto their con game under the old name, right? It is a complete pyramid scheme. And there's no surprise that there's a cult-like attitude... sensible people don't fall for this sort of scam. The one's who get roped in are the sort who buy into the SCAmway lifestyle, since we all know the products don't really make anyone any money. You buy the products, the seminars, the tapes, the DVDs... really, the only people making the money are one set of SCAmway sellers who are very high on the pyramid, selling products to the other SCAmway sellers lower on the pyramid. I doubt any real money is being made by selling off-brand energy drinks and vitamins.

 

[Stankeye]

The problem I have is not the "business" model or the selling of products, but the way in which they tell their new "members" that anyone who doesn't support them wants them to fail and is jealous of their "success". It trys to alienate the new members from their family and friends if those family and friends don't support them. This support usually means buying stuff or at least not telling them it's stupid.

My two encounters with friends who did this took this route. You could see the rift that Amway was trying to create between people who "support" and people who didn't.

I find that method and behavior despicable.
It's evident here by icerat brandishing that non-supportive claim here.

So you think it's better to whinge and complain than be supportive? Don't worry, folk talk about problems all the time, and there's plenty to complain about.

It's how they do it. You aren't supporting me therefore you need to be removed from my life in order for me to succeed.

Disgusting.

 

[Earthborn]

It has an extremely low cost of entry, with money back guarantee. Many people get involved then chose it's not for them.

Does that mean they get their money back?