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Amish School Shooting

Well, I stand by my position: irrational people don't need rational excuses.

May I ask you why you think Americans are so bloodthirsty? You don't seem to be satisfied with my answer. I would like to know yours. Whay are Americans so bloodthirsty?

Michael

I look at the hard facts. Lots of guns. Lots of shot people each year.

It really isn't that difficult.

I do. The problem is you do as well but still say the dumbest things.

As long as you don't vote another Bush into office.

One need not be one to recycle their rhetoric.

It isn't pacifist rhetorics. It is concerned rhetoric.

We shall have to part company on this, I think, and agree to disagree. The genii is never going back into the bottle, and my concerns are for the rational and slowly effective nuclear disarmament efforts that SALT and START began, and as recently as three years ago, included Putin and Bush agreeing to cut nuclear arsenals by about two thirds over a 10 year perdiod. I have also written to my Senators and Congressman objecting to the "bunker buster" nuke stupidity being promoted by Rumsfeld, and being fought against in Congress.

One is all it takes. Why have nukes, if nobody dares use them? Strike that, why have nukes if the good guys don't dare use them, but the bad guys might very well?

Risk? Sure. Likelihood? Low to remote, but I concur with you, greater than zero. Blah.

No, not "blah". We can't just dismiss the risk.

Impossible and improbable are now allowed to fence, let's watch the match, shall we?

Improbable just isn't good enough, when we are talking about nukes.

Fascinating stereotype of American military. Since Japan surrendered, and since people saw and keep learning what the real effects are, the weapons have been there, and they haven't been used. Sadly, the genii is out of the bottle. Again, blah.

Again, not "blah".

I think they could. And if they do, I cancel my vacation plans to India immediately.

That's not good enough. You can't just shut your eyes to the possibility of millions of people evaporated.

Those are examples of the fact that orders are disobeyed, on principled grounds, now and again. They are also disobeyed for a variety of other grounds, and you get such crap as the Abu Gharib mess.

Which proves that you can't trust the military to do the "right thing", at all times.

Yes, but they are surrounded by people who can recognize them snapping, and block a rash decision. It is part of our system of redundancy.

How will you tell if Bush has snapped?

I was making with the funny, Claus. If I had an answer, I'd bottle a remedy and make a fortune.

Perhaps. But that means that the answer - the solution - is just left hanging. "Playing ostrich" is perhaps the answer?

Yes, indeed. Like other presidents, his time too will come to an end, and we get to choose yet another person of unknown talent for the job. Then he, be it Ralph Nader, Jesse Ventura, Pat Buchanan, Al Gore, John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, George Allen, George Carlin, Jay Leno, or some other person will also have a finger near the button. High adventure! The problem won't end with Bush's departure from office.

No, it won't. But you can elect someone who is less likely to snap. And, of course, work to rid the world of nukes.

My advice to you is to start drinking heavily. It may not help, but it can't hurt.

I prefer to solve problems instead of ignoring them.
 
Interesting. I wonder how you'd feel if military personnel would have said or behaved that way during the Clinton administration, after his "loathing" was revealed.



Let me guess; Roe was a great judicial decision?

Your one-way street (any one-way street) isn't necessarily the one the rest of us want to travel. That's why this is a democratic republic.
As a military professional during the Clinton administration, I can only say that his leadership was bad for morale, his policies a mismatch for his resource allocation choices, and his concept of what he was doing foggy.

We still did the mission as best we could, polishing the policy turd as the troops have ever done. Oddly enough, the JCS successfully defied his attempted first executive order while in office. They could only so do because it was an illegal order, as Congress is charged with the administration and regulation of military manpower policy.

He really didn't get it, early on, though he seemed to get it better as he went along, and listened now and again to someone with a brain: Sec Def Perry.

DR
 
As long as you don't vote another Bush into office.
Here's something that may have you waking up and screaming in the night: the next one might be worse.
One is all it takes. Why have nukes, if nobody dares use them? Strike that, why have nukes if the good guys don't dare use them, but the bad guys might very well?
The deterrent bit worked for a while, but the multipolar balance (imbalance) of power has raced ahead of the international protocols on non proliferation, which are an abject failure.
No, not "blah". We can't just dismiss the risk.
Right, we can mitigate it. Since the cautious trust relationship with USSR is not available, missile defense is a path to mitigating the risk. NATO recently funded the ballistic missile defense program, or parts of it, that I worked on (in small parts) ten years ago. The risk is NOT being dismissed, and is NOT being ignored.
Improbable just isn't good enough, when we are talking about nukes.
OK, Claus, do you expect a zero defects policy that is implementable to arise ex nihilo from "concern" and rational analysis? Politics is not a wholly rational activity. Nothing is not what is being done, and the slow progress is not primarily the US's fault.
That's not good enough. You can't just shut your eyes to the possibility of millions of people evaporated.
Sure it is. What I can do is limited, and I do what my limited means allow. I am not fool enough to think that I can control what 150 million Pakistanis will, or won't, collectively do. If they start a nuclear war with India, or someone else, things are sure going to suck. I live in the real world, not an Ivory Tower. I spent my career in the business of global stability, at the pointy end of American Foreign policy, which includes the preparation to visit violence and death on the enemies of my country, but was most effective when deterrence (thanks to presence of credible force) was successful.
I've done a bit, thanks so much, for world stability.
Which proves that you can't trust the military to do the "right thing", at all times.
At all times. Once again, I ask you, how do you expect zero defects from any human endeavor. That is beyond fallacious, it is irresponsible expectation. You are a skeptic, and you make a declarative statement of that gross futility? I am dying to know why?
How will you tell if Bush has snapped?
Since I am no longer on active duty, and not on the J-staff, Operations, I won't. The folks there will. So will his physician, his wife, the speaker of the House, the Secretary of State, and a whole host of others.
Perhaps. But that means that the answer - the solution - is just left hanging. "Playing ostrich" is perhaps the answer?
My solution, personally, is to write my elected representatives on topics where I have some competence, to vote my conscience, and to send in articles to journals and papers (I get a lot of rejection slips back, blah!) on topics I find of merit. What ostrich?
No, it won't. But you can elect someone who is less likely to snap. And, of course, work to rid the world of nukes.
Who gives up theirs first? Isn't that always the problem? Trust? It's the old chicken and egg. If you trust them, you don't need nukes, but then, if there is trust, nukes weren't necessary in the first place. If you don't trust them, you can't let go of your nukes if they have them. The genii is out of the bottle.
I prefer to solve problems instead of ignoring them.
What have you solved in the matter of nuclear non-proliferation in your life time? I am waiting for your evidence. I suspect I may be dealing with an admitted Danish Ostrich. I would most enjoy being shown the error in that presumption. Hell, I'd buy you a bear. No, wait, I'd buy you a beer. :cool:

DR
 
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Looks like WBC got free airtime. They wouldn't have been able to get anywhere near the funerals:

State troopers blocked off all roads into the Nickel Mines village and led horse-drawn buggies and black carriages holding the girls' hand-sawn wooden coffins to the cemetery on the crest of a hill.

...

Media were blocked from the funerals and the burials, and airspace for 2 1/2 miles in all directions was closed to news helicopters.
 
Originally Posted by Huntster
Interesting. I wonder how you'd feel if military personnel would have said or behaved that way during the Clinton administration, after his "loathing" was revealed.

As a military professional during the Clinton administration, I can only say that his leadership was bad for morale, his policies a mismatch for his resource allocation choices, and his concept of what he was doing foggy.

We still did the mission as best we could, polishing the policy turd as the troops have ever done.....

Agreed. I was also DoD during that era, and there was no "he's not my president" stuff like what fuelair is spouting.
 
I look at the hard facts. Lots of guns. Lots of shot people each year.

It really isn't that difficult..

Neither is it that difficult to answer my question: why do you think Americans are so bloodthirsty?

Michael
 
Here's something that may have you waking up and screaming in the night: the next one might be worse.

True. Which means you guys won't - or can't - learn from your mistakes.

The deterrent bit worked for a while, but the multipolar balance (imbalance) of power has raced ahead of the international protocols on non proliferation, which are an abject failure.

The "deterrent bit" worked for a very short while, until it dawned on both the US and the USSR that it was insane to have such a huge arsenal of nukes. But, then, it was believed it was too late to back down.

I wouldn't want to call the protocols an abject failure. Only very few countries have nukes. What is lacking is the will, especially from both Russia and the US, to do something about it. We can't expect to pressure Iran not to develop nukes, when we sell them the equipment and knowledge to do it with.

Right, we can mitigate it. Since the cautious trust relationship with USSR is not available, missile defense is a path to mitigating the risk. NATO recently funded the ballistic missile defense program, or parts of it, that I worked on (in small parts) ten years ago. The risk is NOT being dismissed, and is NOT being ignored.

It would be a little difficult to achieve anything with the USSR, since it hasn't existed for 15 years.

OK, Claus, do you expect a zero defects policy that is implementable to arise ex nihilo from "concern" and rational analysis? Politics is not a wholly rational activity. Nothing is not what is being done, and the slow progress is not primarily the US's fault.

That's precisely what I don't expect. Politics is a wholly irrational activity, which is why we have to be very cautious with the weapons our leaders have.

Sure it is. What I can do is limited, and I do what my limited means allow. I am not fool enough to think that I can control what 150 million Pakistanis will, or won't, collectively do. If they start a nuclear war with India, or someone else, things are sure going to suck. I live in the real world, not an Ivory Tower. I spent my career in the business of global stability, at the pointy end of American Foreign policy, which includes the preparation to visit violence and death on the enemies of my country, but was most effective when deterrence (thanks to presence of credible force) was successful. I've done a bit, thanks so much, for world stability.

But deterrence built on nuclear capability is inherently unusable: We know that there is no sane person who will use nukes. The danger exists only if someone doesn't stay sane.

At all times. Once again, I ask you, how do you expect zero defects from any human endeavor. That is beyond fallacious, it is irresponsible expectation. You are a skeptic, and you make a declarative statement of that gross futility? I am dying to know why?

I am saying that if - when - someone nutty enough decides to go to war, we can at least make sure that the damage is as small as possible.

Since I am no longer on active duty, and not on the J-staff, Operations, I won't. The folks there will. So will his physician, his wife, the speaker of the House, the Secretary of State, and a whole host of others.

Trust of that kind results in disaster. Nobody spotted that Charles Carl Roberts IV was going bonkers.

My solution, personally, is to write my elected representatives on topics where I have some competence, to vote my conscience, and to send in articles to journals and papers (I get a lot of rejection slips back, blah!) on topics I find of merit. What ostrich?

I am talking about the question as to why Americans are so blood-thirsty.

Who gives up theirs first? Isn't that always the problem? Trust? It's the old chicken and egg. If you trust them, you don't need nukes, but then, if there is trust, nukes weren't necessary in the first place. If you don't trust them, you can't let go of your nukes if they have them. The genii is out of the bottle.

It isn't a question of one-sided total abandonment in the blink of an eye. Tally'em up, and dismantle them at a steady rate, under mutual supervision.

What have you solved in the matter of nuclear non-proliferation in your life time? I am waiting for your evidence. I suspect I may be dealing with an admitted Danish Ostrich. I would most enjoy being shown the error in that presumption. Hell, I'd buy you a bear. No, wait, I'd buy you a beer. :cool:

I have exercised my rights to influence politicians who supported a no-nuke policy in Denmark. Very effectively, I dare say.


Neither is it that difficult to answer my question: why do you think Americans are so bloodthirsty?

I thought that was rather obvious: A deep worship of guns.
 
I thought that was rather obvious: A deep worship of guns.

So is it your assertion that if we were to have better gun control laws, the murder rate would drop? That a person who has murder on their mind wouldn't resort to another instrument, say, a knife or poison?

Michael
 
So is it your assertion that if we were to have better gun control laws, the murder rate would drop? That a person who has murder on their mind wouldn't resort to another instrument, say, a knife or poison?

I see no reason why Americans would do that. To suggest that would be to suggest that Americans are more bloodthirsty than other people, regardless of what what they have available.

Is that your contention?
 
Trust of that kind results in disaster. Nobody spotted that Charles Carl Roberts IV was going bonkers..

Did anyone spot that Nurse Lucy was going to go bonkers before she was arrested in 2001 for killing 13 children in her care at the Children's Hospital in the Hague, as well as 19 elderly patients at a previous hospital where she worked? These were all accomplished, I believe, without the use of a gun.

Michael
 
Did anyone spot that Nurse Lucy was going to go bonkers before she was arrested in 2001 for killing 13 children in her care at the Children's Hospital in the Hague, as well as 19 elderly patients at a previous hospital where she worked? These were all accomplished, I believe, without the use of a gun.

This only emphasizes my point that we can't trust our leaders with nukes.

Keep coming up with examples like these. They only serve to prove my point.
 
I see no reason why Americans would do that. To suggest that would be to suggest that Americans are more bloodthirsty than other people, regardless of what what they have available.

Is that your contention?

Hardly. I don't think Americans are more bloodthirsty than others. I was getting the impression that you personally felt that Americans are more bloodthirsty than other people. I also thought that you personally felt that we are a reflection of who we have in office as President, which is why I asked about Clinton. I would have voted for Clinton a third time if it were legal because, like most people, I couldn't care less about his private life.

Michael

ETA:

And the reason I kept bringing up Nurse Lucy was to prove another point: irrational people don't need rational excuses. The difference between Nurse Lucy and Presidents is that Nurse Lucy doesn't have a chain of command to follow if she wants to tamper with a patient's dosage if she is the one personally administering the medicine, whereas a President has to give an order to launch a weapon and it's up to the individual commanders to carry out that order, which they may choose not to if they deem there's no credible reason to do so.
 
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Hardly. I don't think Americans are more bloodthirsty than others. I was getting the impression that you personally felt that Americans are more bloodthirsty than other people. I also thought that you personally felt that we are a reflection of who we have in office as President, which is why I asked about Clinton. I would have voted for Clinton a third time if it were legal because, like most people, I couldn't care less about his private life.

OK, Americans are not more bloodthirsty than others. And it's not the guns.

What is it, then?
 
OK, Americans are not more bloodthirsty than others. And it's not the guns.

What is it, then?

Personally, I feel it's the two old standbys: motive and opportunity. You have something I want and I'm going to get it. Sometimes it's plain old stupidity--a bar fight being an example. If it's not a gun, it's a knife. If it's not a knife, it's a blackjack. If it's not a blackjack, it's a sump pump (I was a juror on a murder case about 12 years ago where a man was beaten to death with a sump pump).

Michael
 
Personally, I feel it's the two old standbys: motive and opportunity. You have something I want and I'm going to get it. Sometimes it's plain old stupidity--a bar fight being an example. If it's not a gun, it's a knife. If it's not a knife, it's a blackjack. If it's not a blackjack, it's a sump pump (I was a juror on a murder case about 12 years ago where a man was beaten to death with a sump pump).

Motive and opportunity? Why are these particularly American?
 
The "deterrent bit" worked for a very short while, until it dawned on both the US and the USSR that it was insane to have such a huge arsenal of nukes. But, then, it was believed it was too late to back down.

I wouldn't want to call the protocols an abject failure. Only very few countries have nukes. What is lacking is the will, especially from both Russia and the US, to do something about it.

I'm not too happy that Russia has lots of nukes left, but I'm very happy we still have a bunch. For the same reason I keep firearms, I want the U.S. to keep it's nukes.

I want all enemies of the U.S. to know that their nation and infrastructure can be vaporized in short order if worse comes to worse.

And I have no problem whatsoever with the historical fact that the United States is the only nation in the history of the Earth that has waged atomic warfare on an opponent. In fact, I'm happy that other nations know that. I don't want them to see a paper tiger.

But deterrence built on nuclear capability is inherently unusable: We know that there is no sane person who will use nukes. The danger exists only if someone doesn't stay sane.

The danger was highest with a simple snafu. Miscommunications. Technical error. Misidentification. As more nations become nuclear, that danger grows.

The second greatest danger comes from terrorists. I believe that's where we will see the the world's next nuclear attack.

I am saying that if - when - someone nutty enough decides to go to war, we can at least make sure that the damage is as small as possible.

The genie is out of the bottle. You will not be successful stuffing her back in.

I am talking about the question as to why Americans are so blood-thirsty.

It isn't thirst. It's just the fact that blood happens. Period.

Better for the other guy to bleed than me, especially if he was the one who came looking for trouble.

I have exercised my rights to influence politicians who supported a no-nuke policy in Denmark. Very effectively, I dare say.

Great! Thank you!

I don't want Denmark to have nukes.

thought that was rather obvious: A deep worship of guns.

You can call it worship if you'd like. I really don't care.

I've got 'em, I'll keep 'em, and that's just the way it's gonna be.
 
I'm not too happy that Russia has lots of nukes left, but I'm very happy we still have a bunch. For the same reason I keep firearms, I want the U.S. to keep it's nukes.

I want all enemies of the U.S. to know that their nation and infrastructure can be vaporized in short order if worse comes to worse.

And I have no problem whatsoever with the historical fact that the United States is the only nation in the history of the Earth that has waged atomic warfare on an opponent. In fact, I'm happy that other nations know that. I don't want them to see a paper tiger.

...

I've got 'em, I'll keep 'em, and that's just the way it's gonna be.

You trust your government with nukes, but you don't trust your government not to attack you so you insist on guns?

I'm sorry, but there is a huge paradox here.
 

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