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Amish School Shooting

Originally Posted by Huntster
A simple primer might be:

The concentration of ethnic groups in "communities" within the larger city is usually due to the preference to be with others whom you can identify with.

Ah, so that's why people prefer to be in concentration camps and ghettos.

That's part of it, from what I understand.

Quote:
If that "community" tends to be of lower economic standing (for whatever reason), or cultural/language differences exacerbate the difficulty of keeping young men in conformance with the rest of society, or a number of other factors keep that "community" from meshing with the overall, surrounding city, there will be more crime.

You're describing numerous ethnic neighborhoods near where I grew up. I walked safely through many of them without fear of crack dealers or drive-by shootings.

I grew up in, then around a ghetto well known for violence.

It was violent.

The Jewish communities in Europe prior to the rise of Nazism were quite insular and they weren't exactly hot beds of seething crime. The only factor mentioned above that seems to have any statistical significance is economic standing, namely poverty.

So, since poverty is "universal", send money, whether or not the concentrated community is violent, or whether or not such a tactic works, even though it is tried again, and again, and again?

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The fact that crime statistics overwhelmingly, consistently, and reliably show that young black men commit the per capita majority of crime in America cannot be denied.

It's also true that a much higher percentage of them live in poverty with no perceived hope of escape except through crime.

So, send money, whether or not the concentrated community is violent, or whether or not such a tactic works, even though it is tried again, and again, and again?

How many times would you like to see Watts rebuilt with government loan guarantees, tax incentives, contract preferences, etc, by responsible blacks in that community, only to be trashed yet again by the thugs?

Who wins under such a scenario?

What is the solution?

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The reasons for that will forever be the bouncing ball of discussion, denial, accusation, debate, conjecture, etc., thusly one of the reasons it will never be dealt with effectively.

I don't agree. It will be difficult unless more people drop their prejudices and come to regard the issues objectivly. But "never" is, I feel, too strong a word.

Prejudices? Like I wrote, I'm pointing out DOJ statistics.

Do we need to point out that among white criminals, the majority of crime is also committed by young men? See a trend here, Sherlock?

Think that is economic/poverty driven, or is it prejudice?

Quote:
Japan is a nearly pure ethnic society. Their crime rate is also extremely low.

Can you prove that that is causation and not correlation?

Gee. I didn't think I'd have to. Here; try to figure it out when explained like this:

Since there is very little racial diversity in Japan, there is very little racial strife.

Japan also has a very low poverty rate. Russia on the other hand has a disturbingly high poverty rate. Despite the fact that most of its population is ethnically Russian the crime rate is staggeringly high.

All correct. There is no doubt that poverty has a direct relationship to criminal makeup.

So does gender.

So does age.

So does race.

There's more.

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While it is clearly not the complete explanation, I say there is a relationship. Denial of such a relationship, IMO, should be included in the "bouncing ball" of discussion, denial, accusation, debate, conjecture, etc. which assists in the problem never getting dealt with effectively.

Relationship to what? The murders of the Amish school girls?

Nope. This little exchange is a derail. It is macro-crime study. It's a result of one person introducing the factor of race into the discussion of national crime, and another trying to label that insignificant or prejudicial.

I still don't see what a book from a website that is identified as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center has to do with the subject of this thread.

Nor I.
 
Amish Tragedy Understood With Game Theory

There's an explanation of sorts in game theory. A population of doves (The Amish) while efficient in isolation, leaves itself vulnerable (unguarded country schoolhouse) to an attack by a hawk (god believer/hater wracked with guilt -- emotion predation).

Utopian dove communities are unstable because the hawks always eventually exploit them. Communities of hawks are unstable because they waste resources attacking themselves. I believe a stable ratio has been found to be around 80% doves to 20% hawks.

Here's one reference I found to show I'm not making this up. Plenty of others may be googled.
 
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I'm converting to theism just long enough to allow Phelps to receive what's rightfully his under the Golden Rule..

"I am going to continue to pray for even worse punishment upon Fred Phelps".

Ok, back to agnosticism.
Alternatively, give them their hour....and then have the station experience 60 minutes of "technical difficulties".
BEEEEEEEEP!


:mad: That might work - if the show airs just before the funerals start. Otherwise, they'll be there - and I wouldn't trust them not to go to the funerals anyway - they are old, flophouse toilet slime - little, if anything, is beneath them.:mad:
 
QUOTE=CFLarsen;1976377]I am talking about the general sentiment among Americans. I sure don't see any serious attempts of reverting this idiotic, overtly simplistic, and downright dangerous idea of private gun-ownership.

[/QUOTE]

This statement makes little sense, Claus. Are you saying that the general populace is not offended by this occurrence? Are you saying the general populace is a bunch of lunatics?

The gun is not the problem. The lunatic is the problem.

The lunatic drowned her kids, claiming she'd be car-jacked by a black guy. The lunatic cut a foetus from her friend's belly and then snuffed her friends kids. The lunatic, Ted Bundy, didn't use a gun, nor did the Boston Strangler, Green River Killer, Bernardo and Homolka, and numerous others.

More people are killed in motor vehicle accidents and more people die as a result of illnesses caused by smoking every day than die due to gun related incidents.

The gun is the tool. A lunatic will always find a way.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/violent_crime/murder_homicide.html

http://www.driveandstayalive.com/info section/statistics/stats-usa.htm

Approx 16,000 murders were committed in the US in 2005. Approximately 73% of them through use of a firearm, or approx 11500 deaths.

Compare that with around 40 000 deaths per year due to car accidents alone.

Here is a bit about worldwide murder rates, for comparison http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html

To me, it appears there are other trees to bark up first.
 
Badger:

Thank you for helping me make my point: irrational people don't need rational excuses. If it's not a gun, it's a knife, or poison, or whatever else may be at hand.

Claus:

Consider yourself lucky. At least Bush left your country after 24 hours. We're stuck with him two more years! And I realize that people don't dislike Americans in general, but instead dislike Bush specifically. I just thought it would be disingenuous to paint all Americans as being a reflection of their leader. Bush Jr. wasn't elected by a landslide either time, if you recall, so it wasn't a clear mandate as it was in, say 1984 or 1988. That's why I wanted to know what people's opinions of America was when Clinton was president. How can we go from gun-crazy cowboys for 12 years, turned into horny pacifists for 8 years and put the cowboy hat and six shooters right back on for another 6+ years?

Michael
 
My, my, my, it sucks to feel powerless, doesn't it? I don't reject your right to be upset on that score, every small nation was powerless to do much about the flailing about of elephants during the cold war (elephant US and elephant USSR) and this latest pair of elephants (elephant US and elephant Islamist irredentus) is a ghastly deja vu with a twist: it's nowhere near as rational as the US/USSR dick dance.

It is comments like these that make Americans so disdained in certain quarters. Such arrogance reflects very badly on your reputation.

These same sorts of "chicken little" yelps were tossed at America when Reagan was president. Not a few Europeans were extremely worried that his stiff stance versus USSR was going to start a nuclear war in Europe. Do you remember the great hullabaloo about the nuclear tipped cruise missiles, IIRC the Pershings, in NATO? I do.

Those fears proved groundless, but his bluff worked pretty well. (Or maybe he wasn't bluffing! We'll never know, will we?)

Bluffing with the lives of billions of people may seem OK to you. It isn't for those of us who would be obliterated by such insane politics.

So, absent the complaint about wit, since Pres GWB is quite possibly the least capable public speaker as politician I have ever witnessed and surely no genius, your frustration and complaint is 20 year old rhetoric, recycled.

Particularly gross, and unworthy of a skeptic, is the belief that GWB will push the button when his Christian God tells him to. While that caricature plays well in political cartoons, he's got a string of mental back up (thank goodness) who are most certainly not nuts. I am worried more about VP Cheney and Rumsfeld losing their grip, due to their massive influence on the President's positions, than I am Bush coming out of a prayer and pushing a button.

Why don't I worry, and why shouldn't you, unless Rummy, Condi and Cheney go completely bat[rule8]?

Unless, yes. Having the lives of billions hinge on the sanity of these very few people is not a comforting thought.

The AMerican military aren't nuts. I spent a career in it. I know a few general and flag officers. I've worked for a few more.

They are under the obligation to obey the orders of their commanding officers. You don't need a nut to press the button, all you need is a nut who gives the order.

My experience is that the JCS is the check in the system, and that in the last two years the more level headed have been building some (behind the scenes) Congressional support to change the direction of GUlf policy. They've been burned badly on the Iraq war, though a few could be called complicit. The next rung down, the 1 and 2 stars, and those in lower echelon who've had to implement this policy are not blind to the problems. You might say a healthy skepticism is creeping into the force, and you'll never see it because it isn't in the papers. And it won't be.

A signal that this was going on was the number of generals who began to speak out perjoratively on the last three years of policy within the last year. Omerta has been broken. When the pundits and shills (Limbaugh and the like) went into attack mode in the media, trying to discredit people like John Batiste, or Anthony Zinni, nothing they threw at them could stick. Likewise Van Riper.

The guys in uniform are the ones who would have to give the orders to launch nuclear missiles or drop bombs. My sense is that bulk of the generals will expend significant energy to prevent the order from ever being issued. It's part of their implied task, and in their job description: expert advice on matters military.

Your "sense" is not reassuring.

There are thousands of us who spent 20 - 40 years backing away from a nuclear precipice. The prospect of a nuclear battlefield is not well received among those in uniform. That apprehension was played upon by the suits who kept pushing for the "get those WMD out of Iraq" war. The majority of the fools who are advocating even small nukes (Rummy's bunker busters) wear suits.

You want to see a revolt of the admirals, and the generals? You'll see one if some damned fool in a suit tries to order a preemptive nuclear strike.

DR

I got two words for you: General Ripper.

This statement makes little sense, Claus. Are you saying that the general populace is not offended by this occurrence? Are you saying the general populace is a bunch of lunatics?

The gun is not the problem. The lunatic is the problem.

The lunatic drowned her kids, claiming she'd be car-jacked by a black guy. The lunatic cut a foetus from her friend's belly and then snuffed her friends kids. The lunatic, Ted Bundy, didn't use a gun, nor did the Boston Strangler, Green River Killer, Bernardo and Homolka, and numerous others.

More people are killed in motor vehicle accidents and more people die as a result of illnesses caused by smoking every day than die due to gun related incidents.

The gun is the tool. A lunatic will always find a way.

Lunatics are everywhere. They become a problem when they have guns readily available.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/violent_crime/murder_homicide.html

http://www.driveandstayalive.com/info section/statistics/stats-usa.htm

Approx 16,000 murders were committed in the US in 2005. Approximately 73% of them through use of a firearm, or approx 11500 deaths.

3 out of 4 murders are committed by firearms, and you tell me guns aren't the problem?

Compare that with around 40 000 deaths per year due to car accidents alone.

Here is a bit about worldwide murder rates, for comparison http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html

To me, it appears there are other trees to bark up first.

You cannot compare cars to guns. Please get this through your head.



Badger:

Thank you for helping me make my point: irrational people don't need rational excuses. If it's not a gun, it's a knife, or poison, or whatever else may be at hand.

In which case, there is something about Americans that make them go bonkers and kill.

Not guns? What, then? What is it about Americans that make them so bloodthirsty?

Consider yourself lucky. At least Bush left your country after 24 hours. We're stuck with him two more years! And I realize that people don't dislike Americans in general, but instead dislike Bush specifically. I just thought it would be disingenuous to paint all Americans as being a reflection of their leader. Bush Jr. wasn't elected by a landslide either time, if you recall, so it wasn't a clear mandate as it was in, say 1984 or 1988. That's why I wanted to know what people's opinions of America was when Clinton was president. How can we go from gun-crazy cowboys for 12 years, turned into horny pacifists for 8 years and put the cowboy hat and six shooters right back on for another 6+ years?

Don't come crying to me about the President you elected.
 
Lunatics are everywhere. They become a problem when they have guns readily available.

No, they're always a problem...always a timebomb waiting to go off.

3 out of 4 murders are committed by firearms, and you tell me guns aren't the problem?

Canada has about half the gun ownership per household as the US. http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/TheCaseForGunControl.html (check out the graph) Also, about half as many (percentage wise) homicides in Canada are committed with guns as in the US. http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/pol-leg/res-eval/other_docs/factsheets/canus/default_e.asp so one could infer that the method of homicide reflects the tools available to commit that crime.

You cannot compare cars to guns. Please get this through your head.

Why can't we? The issues you've raised, Americans are crazy, and a particular item, a gun, kills is just as applicable. Meanwhile, more deaths occurr in the US due to automotives which already require licensing, registration, and testing. What is different?



In which case, there is something about Americans that make them go bonkers and kill.

Not guns? What, then? What is it about Americans that make them so bloodthirsty?

I direct you to this link again: http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html which indicates there are a lot more countries that are significantly more bloodthirsty than the US. "So bloodthirsty" as you say, is a relative statement.
 
IWhat do you have today? A moron. A dimwit. Someone who can't even pronounce the names of his enemies - or just doesn't give a damn, but instead rely on the fact that the majority of his voters won't care.

You could have had Gore as President. Sure, a boring brainiac, but a brainiac nevertheless. Instead, you chose the moron. This time, you chose him. And this guy can obliterate the world, if his fundamentalist-Christian God tells him.

Your choice. Which the rest of the world has to live with.

Shame on you. Shame.

Who's "you"?
 
Badger:

Thank you for helping me make my point: irrational people don't need rational excuses. If it's not a gun, it's a knife, or poison, or whatever else may be at hand.

Claus:

Consider yourself lucky. At least Bush left your country after 24 hours. We're stuck with him two more years! And I realize that people don't dislike Americans in general, but instead dislike Bush specifically. I just thought it would be disingenuous to paint all Americans as being a reflection of their leader. Bush Jr. wasn't elected by a landslide either time, if you recall, so it wasn't a clear mandate as it was in, say 1984 or 1988. That's why I wanted to know what people's opinions of America was when Clinton was president. How can we go from gun-crazy cowboys for 12 years, turned into horny pacifists for 8 years and put the cowboy hat and six shooters right back on for another 6+ years?

Michael

Actually, just because it still annoys me (and turned me to what historically is called a Yellow Dog Democrat - meaning I would vote for a yellow dog before I would vote for a Republican), Shrub was installed as resident by the (not very) Supreme Court - not elected- in 2000. The voting - and investigations of Texas-Florida connections involved in fixing it - was never actually completed.
:mad: :mad: :mad:
 
No, they're always a problem...always a timebomb waiting to go off.

I didn't say lunatics weren't always a problem. But when they have easy access to guns, they are far more likely to become a big problem.

Canada has about half the gun ownership per household as the US. http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/TheCaseForGunControl.html (check out the graph) Also, about half as many (percentage wise) homicides in Canada are committed with guns as in the US. http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/pol-leg/res-eval/other_docs/factsheets/canus/default_e.asp so one could infer that the method of homicide reflects the tools available to commit that crime.

One could also infer that, if you don't have access to guns, you don't kill as easily.

Why can't we? The issues you've raised, Americans are crazy, and a particular item, a gun, kills is just as applicable. Meanwhile, more deaths occurr in the US due to automotives which already require licensing, registration, and testing. What is different?

Cars are not built to kill. Guns are.

Why is this so difficult to understand? Is it lack of will?

I direct you to this link again: http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html which indicates there are a lot more countries that are significantly more bloodthirsty than the US. "So bloodthirsty" as you say, is a relative statement.

I didn't say the US was the most bloodthirsty. It is hardly fair to compare to countries like Colombia and Leshoto, which are hardly paragons of developed nations. We have to look at countries that are reasonably comparable to the US.

Who's "you"?

'Mericans. Who do you think has a President called "Bush"?
 
'Mericans. Who do you think has a President called "Bush"?

Just wanted to see how broad a brush you use to lay shame on an entire country of 300 million people because when you say something like this:

There you go: You hold every German responsible for the Nazi atrocities.

Not just those that were Nazis. Not just all Germans living at the time, regardless of age. But all Germans, even those living today, including Chaos

...I would think you wouldn't hold every American in that light including those that don't like Bush or didn't vote for him or publically voice their displeasure of him and his admin.

But I understand your position...as a matter of being a citizen here we should be ashamed of ourselves because half the votes went to a car-wreck of a President.
 
It is comments like these that make Americans so disdained in certain quarters. Such arrogance reflects very badly on your reputation.
This is more recycled sentiment from the pacifists in the Cold War, but I won't argue that image and perception aren't a two edged sword. They are powerful allies, and powerful gaping wounds. If you think Pres Bush is sharpening the wrong edge of the sword, I'd tend to agree with you.
Bluffing with the lives of billions of people may seem OK to you. It isn't for those of us who would be obliterated by such insane politics.
Whether it is OK to me or not is irrelevant, Claus. I too grew up in a world where any day, the nukes might go up, and due to where I lived, on or near military bases, and near my Nations' Capital, and in Germany, I stood to be blown into atoms. On any given day.

I learned how to stop worrying, but I never learned how to love the bomb. ;)

There were nuclear tipped missiles on Russian subs that shadowed the battlegroups that I was assigned to. Being in their area of effect was going to roast me on the high seas as well. I spent some years chasing and keeping track of Russian subs loaded with ICBM's, with MIRV's, whose purpose was to melt my nation's cities into irradiated slag. It isn't only about you, and your little but lovely country, Claus.
Unless, yes. Having the lives of billions hinge on the sanity of these very few people is not a comforting thought.
It hasn't been a comforting thought since at least the Cuban Missile Crisis, and since I did exercises in weapons classes as a midshipmen that plotted out how many people in San Francisco would die based on the arrival of X missiles, at various ground zeroes in the SF Bay area. Chilling homework, that was.
They are under the obligation to obey the orders of their commanding officers. You don't need a nut to press the button, all you need is a nut who gives the order.
I guess you are unaware of how soldiers actually behave, rather than how the two dimensional pictures are painted. I am fully aware. Yes, that order could be given, and it can be either obeyed, there go the missiles, welcome nuclear winter. Or countermanded. Or, disobeyed. The order can also be deliberately disobeyed, or gummed up. A general or other uniformed member can risk the punishment. That too has happened in other circumstances.
Your "sense" is not reassuring.
Nor to me, as my confidence level is not in the higher ends of the 90th percentiles. But I am betting the over that I am right. There is no certainty in life, Claus, you know that of course. LIfe has a quantum quality, doesn't it?
I got two words for you: General Ripper.
A fictional character, a caricature, a cartoon depiction, of a general in a dark comedy film by Peter Sellers. A satire. I have a phrase for you: the revolt of the admirals. And two more words for you: Ehren Watada.
Two more words: Michael New
Two more words: Erik Shinseki

The US military are not automatons, but part of the professional ethic is to keep dissent "inside" due to the primacy of civilian leadership by our laws. I pay close attention to reading excerpts of General Abizaid's press releases. I look carefully for what is said, and more importantly, what isn't said.

While I am still puzzled at times by VP Cheney's various utterances, my read on Sec Def Rumsfeld is that he is a practical man, and has as a driving motive the maintenance of his power base, politically, and his various missions. As a practical matter, the use of nukes (beyond his bunker buster madness that is still getting flak in Congress, and not attracting funding) would throw far too many variables into his calculations and strategy.
]
Lunatics are everywhere. They become a problem when they have guns readily available.
Oh, indeed, and nukes. Kim Jong Il comes to mind.
3 out of 4 murders are committed by firearms, and you tell me guns aren't the problem?
Irresponsible use of guns is a problem.
You cannot compare cars to guns. Please get this through your head.
Indeed, cars are more dangerous, but for a different reason.
In which case, there is something about Americans that make them go bonkers and kill.
And Scotsmen, and Canadians, per a couple of the other cases presented in the thread.
Not guns? What, then? What is it about Americans that make them so bloodthirsty?
I think it's something in the water, like Flouride. It disturbs our purity of essence, which in turn incites abnormal behavior. :p Perhaps you cited General Ripper in the wrong part of your response. :D Me, I drink grain alcohol and pure rain water . . . oh, wait, I don't either, so maybe I'm nuts for another reason, or from too much flouridated water. :confused: Got good teeth, though, see? :D
Don't come crying to me about the President you elected.
If an American Democrat who voted for Kerry is upset with Pres Bush, how is his complaint "coming and crying to you?"

DR
 
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If an American Democrat who voted for Kerry is upset with Pres Bush, how is his complaint "coming and crying to you?"

DR

And he isn't our president or -to avoid speaking for all problem - he isn't mine.
He was artificially selected by the so-called supreme court paying off an artificial debt to his daddy. (which is why I refer to him as Shrub and as the resident - as he does reside in the White House).
 
Just wanted to see how broad a brush you use to lay shame on an entire country of 300 million people because when you say something like this:

...I would think you wouldn't hold every American in that light including those that don't like Bush or didn't vote for him or publically voice their displeasure of him and his admin.

Hardly the same thing, mate. We are talking about electing Bush, not holding generations to come responsible for Bush.

But I understand your position...as a matter of being a citizen here we should be ashamed of ourselves because half the votes went to a car-wreck of a President.

Think the next time.

This is more recycled sentiment from the pacifists in the Cold War, but I won't argue that image and perception aren't a two edged sword. They are powerful allies, and powerful gaping wounds. If you think Pres Bush is sharpening the wrong edge of the sword, I'd tend to agree with you.

I am not a pacifist.

Whether it is OK to me or not is irrelevant, Claus. I too grew up in a world where any day, the nukes might go up, and due to where I lived, on or near military bases, and near my Nations' Capital, and in Germany, I stood to be blown into atoms. On any given day.

I learned how to stop worrying, but I never learned how to love the bomb. ;)

When you stop worrying about a nuclear holocaust, that's when you should start worrying just what you are doing.

There were nuclear tipped missiles on Russian subs that shadowed the battlegroups that I was assigned to. Being in their area of effect was going to roast me on the high seas as well. I spent some years chasing and keeping track of Russian subs loaded with ICBM's, with MIRV's, whose purpose was to melt my nation's cities into irradiated slag. It isn't only about you, and your little but lovely country, Claus.

Very true, which only emphasizes my point. It is about everybody.

It hasn't been a comforting thought since at least the Cuban Missile Crisis, and since I did exercises in weapons classes as a midshipmen that plotted out how many people in San Francisco would die based on the arrival of X missiles, at various ground zeroes in the SF Bay area. Chilling homework, that was.

I guess you are unaware of how soldiers actually behave, rather than how the two dimensional pictures are painted. I am fully aware. Yes, that order could be given, and it can be either obeyed, there go the missiles, welcome nuclear winter. Or countermanded. Or, disobeyed. The order can also be deliberately disobeyed, or gummed up. A general or other uniformed member can risk the punishment. That too has happened in other circumstances.

This doesn't change the risk of someone giving the order.

A fictional character, a caricature, a cartoon depiction, of a general in a dark comedy film by Peter Sellers. A satire.

A satire that rammed the harsh truth down our throats: It is far from an impossible scenario.

I have a phrase for you: the revolt of the admirals.

I have a phrase for you: The weapons are there, the people are trained to use them, and, being military, they will.

Oh, indeed, and nukes. Kim Jong Il comes to mind.

Yep. He is certainly nuts enough. What do you think will happen, if he decides to go really nuts? Think Muslim fundamentalists can't get a majority in Pakistan?

And two more words for you: Ehren Watada.
Two more words: Michael New
Two more words: Erik Shinseki (Retired General)

The US military are not automatons, but part of the professional ethic is to keep dissent "inside" due to the primacy of civilian leadership by our laws. I pay close attention to reading excerpts of General Abizaid's press releases. I look carefully for what is said, and more importantly, what isn't said.

No? It is testament that military personnel do obey orders, that there aren't many more like the above three.

While I am still puzzled and at times by VP Cheney's various utterances, my read on Sec Def Rumsfeld is that he is a practical man, and has as a driving motive the maintenance of his power base, politically, and his various missions. As a practical matter, the use of nukes (beyond his bunker buster madness that is still getting flak in Congress, and not attracting funding) would throw far too many variables into his calculations and strategy.

That doesn't change the fact that even they can snap. Anytime.

Irresponsible use of guns is a problem.

Use of guns has a tendency to become irresponsible very quickly.

And Scotsmen, and Canadians, per a couple of the other cases presented in the thread.

Strangely enough, both have less firearms and less firearm deaths. Peculiar, isn't it?

I think it's something in the water, like Flouride. It disturbs our purity of essence, which in turn incites abnormal behavior. :p Perhaps you cited General Ripper in the wrong part of your response. :D Me, I drink grain alcohol and pure rain water . . . oh, wait, I don't either, so maybe I'm nuts for another reason, or from toomuch flouridated water. :confused: Got good teeth, though, see? :D

Doesn't answer the question. What is it, if not guns?

If an American Democrat who voted for Kerry is upset with Pres Bush, how is his complaint "coming and crying to you?"

Because he also have to live with the consequences.

And he isn't our president or -to avoid speaking for all problem - he isn't mine.
He was artificially selected by the so-called supreme court paying off an artificial debt to his daddy. (which is why I refer to him as Shrub and as the resident - as he does reside in the White House).

If you are an American, then he is your President.
 
And he isn't our president or -to avoid speaking for all problem - he isn't mine.
He was artificially selected by the so-called supreme court paying off an artificial debt to his daddy. (which is why I refer to him as Shrub and as the resident - as he does reside in the White House).
You know what kills me? If Al Gore had insisted on a recount of the whole state of Florida, rather than focusing on three counties, and on counting every vote (I learned about "sampling" votes that year, and it mightily pissed me off) I am guessing he would have won. Not sure. However, given the narrowness of that vote, the least such a measure would have done is restore the shaky confidence in the system, and given a real answer, rather than the muddle we got.

The path taken by both parties in that dispute was a no win for the system.

We really don't need to know the next day. Waiting a few weeks, and getting it right, is worth the wait, dear Short Attention Span America, to find out who won. I am also for a 24 hour news blackout on tabulations during voting. Play by play isn't necessary.

DR
 
In which case, there is something about Americans that make them go bonkers and kill.

Not guns? What, then? What is it about Americans that make them so bloodthirsty?

Well, I stand by my position: irrational people don't need rational excuses.

May I ask you why you think Americans are so bloodthirsty? You don't seem to be satisfied with my answer. I would like to know yours. Whay are Americans so bloodthirsty?

Michael
 
I am not a pacifist.
One need not be one to recycle their rhetoric.
When you stop worrying about a nuclear holocaust, that's when you should start worrying just what you are doing.
We shall have to part company on this, I think, and agree to disagree. The genii is never going back into the bottle, and my concerns are for the rational and slowly effective nuclear disarmament efforts that SALT and START began, and as recently as three years ago, included Putin and Bush agreeing to cut nuclear arsenals by about two thirds over a 10 year perdiod. I have also written to my Senators and Congressman objecting to the "bunker buster" nuke stupidity being promoted by Rumsfeld, and being fought against in Congress.
Very true, which only emphasizes my point. It is about everybody.
*Dons party hat, tosses confetti* Wow, we agree on something.
This doesn't change the risk of someone giving the order.
Risk? Sure. Likelihood? Low to remote, but I concur with you, greater than zero. Blah.
A satire that rammed the harsh truth down our throats: It is far from an impossible scenario.
Impossible and improbable are now allowed to fence, let's watch the match, shall we?
I have a phrase for you: The weapons are there, the people are trained to use them, and, being military, they will.
Fascinating stereotype of American military. Since Japan surrendered, and since people saw and keep learning what the real effects are, the weapons have been there, and they haven't been used. Sadly, the genii is out of the bottle. Again, blah.
Yep. He is certainly nuts enough. What do you think will happen, if he decides to go really nuts? Think Muslim fundamentalists can't get a majority in Pakistan?
I think they could. And if they do, I cancel my vacation plans to India immediately.
No? It is testament that military personnel do obey orders, that there aren't many more like the above three.
Those are examples of the fact that orders are disobeyed, on principled grounds, now and again. They are also disobeyed for a variety of other grounds, and you get such crap as the Abu Gharib mess.
That doesn't change the fact that even they can snap. Anytime.
Yes, but they are surrounded by people who can recognize them snapping, and block a rash decision. It is part of our system of redundancy.
Doesn't answer the question. What is it, if not guns?
I was making with the funny, Claus. If I had an answer, I'd bottle a remedy and make a fortune.
If you are an American, then he is your President.
Yes, indeed. Like other presidents, his time too will come to an end, and we get to choose yet another person of unknown talent for the job. Then he, be it Ralph Nader, Jesse Ventura, Pat Buchanan, Al Gore, John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, George Allen, George Carlin, Jay Leno, or some other person will also have a finger near the button. High adventure! The problem won't end with Bush's departure from office.

My advice to you is to start drinking heavily. It may not help, but it can't hurt.

DR
 
Originally Posted by Darth Rotor
If an American Democrat who voted for Kerry is upset with Pres Bush, how is his complaint "coming and crying to you?"

And he isn't our president or -to avoid speaking for all problem - he isn't mine.

Interesting. I wonder how you'd feel if military personnel would have said or behaved that way during the Clinton administration, after his "loathing" was revealed.

He was artificially selected by the so-called supreme court paying off an artificial debt to his daddy.....

Let me guess; Roe was a great judicial decision?

Your one-way street (any one-way street) isn't necessarily the one the rest of us want to travel. That's why this is a democratic republic.
 

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