With help.
Amish School Shooting
- Thread starter Just thinking
- Start date
With help.
Regnad Kcin
Penultimate Amazing
coalesce
Illuminator
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2003
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- 4,739
So how can we blame American culture for that? There just has to be a way that American culture is responsible for this. Never mind the fact that the guy was just freaking nuts. It MUST be because of Bic Macs, Disneyland and the lack of prayer in school that did it.
Michael
The Mutha
thoroughly confused, but valiantly trying...
Some good news -- the WBC wacko freak group has agreed not to protest at the funerals IF they get an hour of radio time on a Fox News program.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,217760,00.html
The controversial anti-homosexual Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan., has canceled its plans to stage a protest at the funerals of the five Amish girls executed in their Pennsylvania school, a church official said Wednesday.
Shirley Phelps-Roper, the daughter of church's pastor, told FOXNews.com the group canceled the protests in exchange for an hour of radio time Thursday on syndicated talk-show host Mike Gallagher's radio program.
"We're not going to any of the Amish funerals — that's the agreement we're making — that we won't go to any of them," Phelps-Roper told FOXNews.com.
On Tuesday, the church posted a flyer touting the demonstrations in response to the attendance of Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell, who has spoken out against the church publicly. Both Amish and non-Amish residents of Lancaster County — where the shooting took place — have vowed to not allow any protesters anywhere near the funeral services; Rendell called the church members "insane."
Phelps-Roper, daughter of Rev. Fred Phelps, said the church had planned to cancel the protests if given media time on radio and television as a platform to espouse Westboro's beliefs.
Gallagher said that church officials would have to sign a document making them liable for the airtime if they broke their promise not to demonstrate.
"It's awful for me to give up an hour of my radio show ... but I think it’s worth the sacrifice to keep them away," Gallagher said.
But she defended the church's initial decision to protest at the Amish girls' funerals.
"Those Amish people, everyone is sitting around talking about those poor little girls — blah, blah, blah — they brought the wrath upon themselves," Phelps-Roper said, adding that the Amish "don't serve God, they serve themselves."
On Monday, Charles Carl Roberts IV killed five girls — Naomi Rose Ebersole, 7; Anna Mae Stoltzfus, 12; Marian Fisher, 13; Mary Liz Miller, 8; and her sister Lena Miller, 7 — in a rural Amish schoolhouse in Lancaster County, Pa.
Donald Kraybill, a professor of sociology at Elizabethtown College in Lancaster County, Pa., calls the church's plans a publicity stunt.
"I don't think there's any connection between the Amish incident and their agenda. They just want to get in the spotlight," Kraybill said. "It's giving them national attention and it's a cheap and easy and really terrible way to gain some visibility."
The church's latest flyer, posted on its Web site notes these protests will be against Rendell for "slanderous" statements against the church.
Westboro's latest rhetoric is in line with the other beliefs of it's 70 church members, who hold that the deaths of U.S. troops are God's punishment for America's tolerance of homosexuality.
The Westboro Baptist Church has made its name demonstrating at the funerals of soldiers killed in the Iraq war. Their controversial and colorful placards proclaim their anti-gay stance with slogans such as "Thank God for Dead Soldiers," "America Is Doomed" and "Soldier Fag in Hell."
Before it garnered national attention, the church made its name around Kansas, where 16 years ago, it started protested the funerals of AIDS victims. And while their demonstrations of late have focused on the funerals of U.S. soldiers, Westboro church members have taken their picket signs to the memorials for the 12 Sago miners who perished in January in West Virginia.
Earlier this year, prompted by the church protests, Congress passed a law that banned protesters from military funerals at federal cemeteries. More than a dozen states have passed similar legislation creating protest-free buffer zones around cemeteries during funerals.
Phelps-Roper told FOXNews.com in February that the church has a right to protest.
"We are delivering a message," Phelps-Roper said. "God is punishing this nation and he is using the IED [improvised explosive device] as his weapon of choice."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,217760,00.html
The controversial anti-homosexual Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan., has canceled its plans to stage a protest at the funerals of the five Amish girls executed in their Pennsylvania school, a church official said Wednesday.
Shirley Phelps-Roper, the daughter of church's pastor, told FOXNews.com the group canceled the protests in exchange for an hour of radio time Thursday on syndicated talk-show host Mike Gallagher's radio program.
"We're not going to any of the Amish funerals — that's the agreement we're making — that we won't go to any of them," Phelps-Roper told FOXNews.com.
On Tuesday, the church posted a flyer touting the demonstrations in response to the attendance of Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell, who has spoken out against the church publicly. Both Amish and non-Amish residents of Lancaster County — where the shooting took place — have vowed to not allow any protesters anywhere near the funeral services; Rendell called the church members "insane."
Phelps-Roper, daughter of Rev. Fred Phelps, said the church had planned to cancel the protests if given media time on radio and television as a platform to espouse Westboro's beliefs.
Gallagher said that church officials would have to sign a document making them liable for the airtime if they broke their promise not to demonstrate.
"It's awful for me to give up an hour of my radio show ... but I think it’s worth the sacrifice to keep them away," Gallagher said.
But she defended the church's initial decision to protest at the Amish girls' funerals.
"Those Amish people, everyone is sitting around talking about those poor little girls — blah, blah, blah — they brought the wrath upon themselves," Phelps-Roper said, adding that the Amish "don't serve God, they serve themselves."
On Monday, Charles Carl Roberts IV killed five girls — Naomi Rose Ebersole, 7; Anna Mae Stoltzfus, 12; Marian Fisher, 13; Mary Liz Miller, 8; and her sister Lena Miller, 7 — in a rural Amish schoolhouse in Lancaster County, Pa.
Donald Kraybill, a professor of sociology at Elizabethtown College in Lancaster County, Pa., calls the church's plans a publicity stunt.
"I don't think there's any connection between the Amish incident and their agenda. They just want to get in the spotlight," Kraybill said. "It's giving them national attention and it's a cheap and easy and really terrible way to gain some visibility."
The church's latest flyer, posted on its Web site notes these protests will be against Rendell for "slanderous" statements against the church.
Westboro's latest rhetoric is in line with the other beliefs of it's 70 church members, who hold that the deaths of U.S. troops are God's punishment for America's tolerance of homosexuality.
The Westboro Baptist Church has made its name demonstrating at the funerals of soldiers killed in the Iraq war. Their controversial and colorful placards proclaim their anti-gay stance with slogans such as "Thank God for Dead Soldiers," "America Is Doomed" and "Soldier Fag in Hell."
Before it garnered national attention, the church made its name around Kansas, where 16 years ago, it started protested the funerals of AIDS victims. And while their demonstrations of late have focused on the funerals of U.S. soldiers, Westboro church members have taken their picket signs to the memorials for the 12 Sago miners who perished in January in West Virginia.
Earlier this year, prompted by the church protests, Congress passed a law that banned protesters from military funerals at federal cemeteries. More than a dozen states have passed similar legislation creating protest-free buffer zones around cemeteries during funerals.
Phelps-Roper told FOXNews.com in February that the church has a right to protest.
"We are delivering a message," Phelps-Roper said. "God is punishing this nation and he is using the IED [improvised explosive device] as his weapon of choice."
ImaginalDisc
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2005
- Messages
- 10,219
Forgive me if I don't cheer. While I'm glad that the families of the victims will be spared this, an hour of radio time for Phelps to spread his hate is giving him the exposure he craves.
People should not be able to blackmail their way onto the air with such behavior.
The Mutha
thoroughly confused, but valiantly trying...
Personally, I'd be happy to see them show up at the funeral to protest and get the crap beat out of them by some of the locals. Unfortunately, the WBC would immediately sue the daylights out of everybody involved, including the family that's just trying to bury their child.
But I'd rather see them get an hour of radio time then one second of time in front of a grieving parent of one of those girls with one of their idiotic signs.
But I'd rather see them get an hour of radio time then one second of time in front of a grieving parent of one of those girls with one of their idiotic signs.
What the hell? How exactly did those 5 girls and the Amish community bring this on themselves?
I'm not familiar with this baptise group (I'm from the Netherlands), so I read up a little at Wikipedia, and I think it's a sick movement. And using funerals to play out your agenda is sickening.
Mutha, good of you and your fellow Patriot Guard Riders for keeping them hidden at funerals.
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2006
- Messages
- 38,527
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2006
- Messages
- 38,527
I am with you, Disc. Where I come from, what they did is called extortion. A lot like a protection racket.
I wonder what traps the Fox guy is going to try to lay for these folks.
DR
To all of you who have indicated your appreciation towards me for the small part I played in this (including the PMs I received), I send you my deepest gratitude. But, in all honesty, I was but one small player in an amazing team that - beyond even what I could have prior to Monday morning imagined - was a well-orchestrated, professsional, compassionate, and effective group of incredible people who did their best to salvage and piece back together what was a senseless and incomprehensible tragedy. What was most amazing is how so many teams of doctors, nurses, and technicians could work so quickly and effectively together to try to mitigate this tragedy. We were quickly prepared to deal with (and initially suspected we would receive) all the victims of this horrible event. In the end, we only received three of the patients... and I'm just, quite simply, heartbroken that we couldn't do more.
About that morning that had started for me like so many others...
I was actually in one of the operating rooms that morning when we received the initial page on our trauma paging system that a "Level 1" pediatric trauma would be arriving. This is, unfortunately, a not-that-uncommon call we get at our institution. However, it quickly became apparent that this was going to be a different situation altogether when we became aware that this patient was a shooting victim. Shortly thereafter, the "External Disaster" page went out on those same pagers.
Because I was already covered by our team, I was identified as an extra set of hands that should free myself to help out. What ensued was immediate cancellation of all elective surgical cases. Per our disaster plan, an "incident commander" was quickly identified. Initial reports of what was coming in were sketchy, and we didn't know exactly how many patients would be coming to our facility. What ensued can best be described as organized chaos. Ongoing surgical cases were quickly finished, additional resources were called into the hospital, and when I arrived in the trauma bay (which is in close proximity to our ORs and our emergency department), there was already assembled a broad collection of professionals readying themselves to deal with whatever was brought to us.
What was surreal to me, as I recollect this event, is that my job - my small part - was finished after we arrived in the PICU. I had to return to my other job in the hospital. There were other sick patients who needed attention. Life does not stop for such events. It was until later in the day that I had any time to even begin to process what had happened.
Later that afternoon, I walked through the OR lounge and the scene was still and somber. Many people were glued to the small television set tuned-into the local news report that was covering the story in detail. You could've heard a pin drop. Much of the story - what had happened - had not been known or told to us up to this point. We knew these were Amish children, we had an idea that this had been a "hostage" situation, but just like everyone else in the world we didn't know the "who" or "why" and were desperate for information.
When you become a physician, there is a part of you that has to learn to deal with human tragedy. I, literally, see it everyday. Whether it's the dear grandfather who's learned that he has terminal colon cancer and may not survive the last "salvage" colon resection to the family who has just learned that their 24-year-old daughter was involved in serious car accident and it isn't clear whether or not she will survive. This happens all the time, and you have to steel yourself to the occasional emotions that well-up inside as you tell the family that their loved one just might not make it.
But, this was different. I cannot fathom what happened. We have all - all the world over - heard of Columbine and 911, but it isn't really until such tragedies affect you personally that you are forced to truly reflect on what it means to be a part of human tragedy. And, it will take me a long time, if ever, to get over this.
I don't want to try to understand his motives. I don't care what factors and experiences in his life had led him to make the horrific decision to go into that school that day. I could try to "intellectualize" this if I wanted to, but I don't.
He made a decision. He is responsible for this. No one else. We cannot blame society or the media or slack gun control laws or family members who molested him as a child. He, and no one else, made the decision to go into that school on Monday and rob an entire community, a community that has hurt no one or done no ill-will to any other human being, of their innocence.
What little I've been prepared so far to reflect on this, as painful as even that is, and wonder if we've turned a corner in our society. How much more of this type of behavior can we or will we tolerate? Do we have a choice? Is this simply just a small example of the most horrendous and awful side of human nature that we are forced to witness as cohabitants of this big blue marble? I honestly don't know.
What I do know is that being a part of this tragedy has changed me. It has personally and deeply affected me. And, in some strange way, I have a new appreciation for the randomness of life. I have a new appreciation for the depths of self-motivated and abominable actions, whatever the motives, of one individual can plunge society if those actions are horrific enough.
At the same time, I'm amazed at the response of the Amish people and my own colleagues. There is an equally, if not diametrically opposite, statement to be made at how much we can do if we work together towards a common goal, putting our personal biases and predilictions aside. That attitude is reflected in the acceptance - without hate in their hearts - of the Amish who were directly affected by this. It was reflected that day by my colleagues who genuinely - genuinely - cared and took upon themselves the challenge of trying to patch back together something that had irrevocably been broken.
That is what I cling to. There's no other reason or way to go on otherwise. The milk was spilled. I did the best I could. I have to tell myself that. People cared. It is futile to try to make sense out of something that can't be made sense of. I have to be resolved to accept that, and try to move on. It's the only way I will ever again be able to sleep at night.
-Dr. Imago
About that morning that had started for me like so many others...
I was actually in one of the operating rooms that morning when we received the initial page on our trauma paging system that a "Level 1" pediatric trauma would be arriving. This is, unfortunately, a not-that-uncommon call we get at our institution. However, it quickly became apparent that this was going to be a different situation altogether when we became aware that this patient was a shooting victim. Shortly thereafter, the "External Disaster" page went out on those same pagers.
Because I was already covered by our team, I was identified as an extra set of hands that should free myself to help out. What ensued was immediate cancellation of all elective surgical cases. Per our disaster plan, an "incident commander" was quickly identified. Initial reports of what was coming in were sketchy, and we didn't know exactly how many patients would be coming to our facility. What ensued can best be described as organized chaos. Ongoing surgical cases were quickly finished, additional resources were called into the hospital, and when I arrived in the trauma bay (which is in close proximity to our ORs and our emergency department), there was already assembled a broad collection of professionals readying themselves to deal with whatever was brought to us.
What was surreal to me, as I recollect this event, is that my job - my small part - was finished after we arrived in the PICU. I had to return to my other job in the hospital. There were other sick patients who needed attention. Life does not stop for such events. It was until later in the day that I had any time to even begin to process what had happened.
Later that afternoon, I walked through the OR lounge and the scene was still and somber. Many people were glued to the small television set tuned-into the local news report that was covering the story in detail. You could've heard a pin drop. Much of the story - what had happened - had not been known or told to us up to this point. We knew these were Amish children, we had an idea that this had been a "hostage" situation, but just like everyone else in the world we didn't know the "who" or "why" and were desperate for information.
When you become a physician, there is a part of you that has to learn to deal with human tragedy. I, literally, see it everyday. Whether it's the dear grandfather who's learned that he has terminal colon cancer and may not survive the last "salvage" colon resection to the family who has just learned that their 24-year-old daughter was involved in serious car accident and it isn't clear whether or not she will survive. This happens all the time, and you have to steel yourself to the occasional emotions that well-up inside as you tell the family that their loved one just might not make it.
But, this was different. I cannot fathom what happened. We have all - all the world over - heard of Columbine and 911, but it isn't really until such tragedies affect you personally that you are forced to truly reflect on what it means to be a part of human tragedy. And, it will take me a long time, if ever, to get over this.
I don't want to try to understand his motives. I don't care what factors and experiences in his life had led him to make the horrific decision to go into that school that day. I could try to "intellectualize" this if I wanted to, but I don't.
He made a decision. He is responsible for this. No one else. We cannot blame society or the media or slack gun control laws or family members who molested him as a child. He, and no one else, made the decision to go into that school on Monday and rob an entire community, a community that has hurt no one or done no ill-will to any other human being, of their innocence.
What little I've been prepared so far to reflect on this, as painful as even that is, and wonder if we've turned a corner in our society. How much more of this type of behavior can we or will we tolerate? Do we have a choice? Is this simply just a small example of the most horrendous and awful side of human nature that we are forced to witness as cohabitants of this big blue marble? I honestly don't know.
What I do know is that being a part of this tragedy has changed me. It has personally and deeply affected me. And, in some strange way, I have a new appreciation for the randomness of life. I have a new appreciation for the depths of self-motivated and abominable actions, whatever the motives, of one individual can plunge society if those actions are horrific enough.
At the same time, I'm amazed at the response of the Amish people and my own colleagues. There is an equally, if not diametrically opposite, statement to be made at how much we can do if we work together towards a common goal, putting our personal biases and predilictions aside. That attitude is reflected in the acceptance - without hate in their hearts - of the Amish who were directly affected by this. It was reflected that day by my colleagues who genuinely - genuinely - cared and took upon themselves the challenge of trying to patch back together something that had irrevocably been broken.
That is what I cling to. There's no other reason or way to go on otherwise. The milk was spilled. I did the best I could. I have to tell myself that. People cared. It is futile to try to make sense out of something that can't be made sense of. I have to be resolved to accept that, and try to move on. It's the only way I will ever again be able to sleep at night.
-Dr. Imago
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One of Phelps's daughters was on Hannity and Colmes on Fox News some time ago. Hannity laced into her; "despicable" was one of the nicer things he called her. When he was done, Colmes started. Colmes was more gentlemanly; he started by asking her, "Are you nuts?"
By all means, give them all the air time they want. Let them spew their filth for everyone to hear, so nobody can plead ignorance about them.
Freedom of speech is a good thing. It makes it easier to spot the idiots.
The Mutha
thoroughly confused, but valiantly trying...
My heart aches for what you and your community are going through, Dr. Imago.
I wonder how long before some religious moron will claim that because the killer was mad at god he was an atheist.
BTW, I know I'm new here so please take this with the best of intentions: Dr. Imago, you sound like a very caring person and I respect you for your emotional connection to your patients. I think you need to be careful about what you say about patients in your care in a public forum though. The punishment for HIPPA privacy violations can be pretty heavy.
BTW, I know I'm new here so please take this with the best of intentions: Dr. Imago, you sound like a very caring person and I respect you for your emotional connection to your patients. I think you need to be careful about what you say about patients in your care in a public forum though. The punishment for HIPPA privacy violations can be pretty heavy.
I am aware of that. I have been careful not to divulge the names or revealing information of any of those involved. I have not even told you which institution I am at (and don't intend to). Most information I've given is already readily available and known in the public. Therefore, I'm not terribly concerned about professional repercussions of sharing my experiences here. I hope that, as I reflect on this incident and use this place as an anonymous forum, that the reader will only begin to be able to grasp what happened that day.
I share a similar "world view" as most who frequent here. The point is, that is not paramount. What is paramount is that we forget about our differences and let each other live our lives as we want. That is all the Amish want. That is all any of us want. And, there is nothing wrong with that so long as we don't injure anyone else in the process.
I firmly believe this. And, I am also equally confident that I've harmed no one by this post, nor that I have violated HIPAA. If I thought that, I would not have posted in the first place.
This is real. This is done. And, I have to move on. It was pure chance that I happened to be someone who was personally involved and affected by this tragedy. It is, on the other hand, an act of pure intent that I chose to share it here, and that others might - in whatever small way - benefit from my experiences. I hope some do.
-Dr. Imago
coalesce
Illuminator
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2003
- Messages
- 4,739
Like I said before, irrational people don't need rational excuses. If it's not a gun, it's poison, like with Maria Swanenburg.
Michael
That would likely be because you didn't evaluate the situation completely.
You have no concept or understanding of "concentration" zones? "Concentration" camps? "Ghettos"?
Think about the situation a bit more. Maybe you'll get it.
I don't know. When you figure it out, let me know.
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Badger
Member of the Peanut Gallery
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2002
- Messages
- 3,435
Dr Imago, I can't read what you write. No more than a few words of it. But I want to thank you, the members of your team, and everyone else on this board who works so hard and shows such compassion for their fellow man.
You truly are great people. Thank you for doing what you do, every day.
(this includes you, Mutha, Andalyn...wherever you are, Truthseeker, Boo and the other members of the medical field, the members and former members of the armed services and police services, Kittynh and the other compassionate teachers, the firemen, and many others.)
You are the best that Humanity has to offer.
You truly are great people. Thank you for doing what you do, every day.
(this includes you, Mutha, Andalyn...wherever you are, Truthseeker, Boo and the other members of the medical field, the members and former members of the armed services and police services, Kittynh and the other compassionate teachers, the firemen, and many others.)
You are the best that Humanity has to offer.