Americans - Celebrate Your Independence!

[CapelDodger]

How about improving port security and improving chemical plant security. Two areas that the Republicans have been dragging their feet on and the Democrats have been advocating.

The Bush administration is pouring money into the Star-Wars defense shield as if a nuclear attack is more likely to come on the tip of an ICBM rather than in the hold of a cargo ship.

It's all so unreal, isn't it? (As I've said for a long time, if I wanted to get a bomb into the US I'd FedEx it.). There's a frat-boy dilettantism about this administration that's frightening. And, following that circus back in November, there's nothing to be done about it except impeachment or paralysis by other means.

As the country-man say when asked directions, "Well I wouldn't start from here ..."

 

[CapelDodger]

The left--as usual--offers up criticism but no real solutions.

Immediate withdrawl from Iraq???........ Is that the solution?

There are thousands of photographs of people protesting Bush.
I haven't seen any evidence that the freedom to do that is being threatened.

Should the "insurgents" win in Iraq however--there will be NO photographs of any protesters.

What does it matter if people can protest if it has no effect. Who's going to bother stopping that?

Some Democrats are advocating immediate withdrawal or a timetable. This is not because they're in any manner leftist but because they're politicians who think they can wrong-foot the opposing party. Just another symptom of how screwed your democratic system is. We now have the amusing spectacle of this administration trying to make a reasoned argument while Democrats are pressing the easy buttons with the electorate.

The argument that immediate withdrawal will harm Iraqis immediately is undeniable, but Joe Sixpack doesn't give a toss. Iraq wasn't invaded to help out Johnny Arab. The argument that a withdrawal would leave the US in danger runs up against the original reason for invading - Iraq was a danger. If it's more so after the invasion ... That's not a good line to push. No wonder the polls are looking so dire.

On the positive side, government paralysis in the US seems to correlate positively with US prosperity. The US did quite nicely under a Clinton who could hardly do anything because of the onslaught of the VRWC. Kosovo hardly equates with Iraq, and he had a hard time getting that under way. This lot, on the other hand, had "political capital" and look at the mess they've got you into.

 

[Zep]

Re: Re: Re: Americans - Celebrate Your Independence!

I concur. For the record, I think that President Bush has committed one of the worst--if not the worst--offenses in history. He ordered the pre-emptive invasion of a country under false pretenses. We now know that the pretenses were false, and we also know that this was not a mistake made in good faith. The invasion of Iraq should never have taken place.

But it has. And the important question is how we should proceed to deal with a situation that is. We should not make decisions based upon what should have been, while ignoring the situation that actually exists.

It's too late to withdraw. We need to stay there and see things through. As bad as it is for a US presence in Iraq (compounded by President Bush's utter incompetence in several respects), a pullout at this time would be worse. It would not be fair to the Iraqis, as Mycroft said.

We broke it, so we bought it.

Well said. Additional points:

1. Learn from the experience - about what NOT to do.

2. Put up a genuine timetable for withdrawal, or have the courage to admit you're not ever leaving.


Incidentally, have a great 4th of July, USA - I mean it! I'll even have a Bud Light in your honour.

cheers, guys!

 

[CapelDodger]

Re: Re: Re: Americans - Celebrate Your Independence!

It's too late to withdraw. We need to stay there and see things through. As bad as it is for a US presence in Iraq (compounded by President Bush's utter incompetence in several respects), a pullout at this time would be worse. It would not be fair to the Iraqis, as Mycroft said.

Fair? Who told you things were meant to be fair? Did Kissinger die for nothing?

I have a problem with the term "Iraqis", since Iraq is a construct of the 1920's and has no real national roots. The unfairness would apply to the Kurds, the Shi'a, the Sunnis, Circassians, Turkomans ... who live in that construct, and also to the Kuwaitis, Saudis, Syrians, Turks, Jordanians ... who would have to live with the consequences. Not to mention the rest of the world. There has to be a radical re-working of the whole region, just as happened after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, but this time with the involvement and input of the people that live there.

The chances of any radical thinking coming out of this White House are slight at best, but they are becoming more open to outside influences. Desperation is setting in, in other words. There's still some hope.

 

[curi0us]

Re: Re: Americans - Celebrate Your Independence!

When that group of democrats had their pretend hearings in the basement and they repeated the lie about jews knowing to stay away from the WTC on 9/11, did you agree?

Who said that exactly? A quote with link would be nice?

 

[Ed]

What does it matter if people can protest if it has no effect. On the positive side, government paralysis in the US seems to correlate positively with US prosperity. The US did quite nicely under a Clinton who could hardly do anything because of the onslaught of the VRWC. Kosovo hardly equates with Iraq, and he had a hard time getting that under way. This lot, on the other hand, had "political capital" and look at the mess they've got you into.

True. The more the President is occupied, the less likely he is to screw things up.

 

[billydkid]

I'm afraid

No, I have a feeling that this is an apple from the Irony Tree.

Ernon...Enron.

For my feelings on the matter though, see Brown's post. We're in it, we probably shouldn't have been, but since we're in it, we need to get the job done and see it through.

I am afraid we are going to get the job done just like we got it done in Vietnam. I believe this thing is unwinnable and I believe we will leave the world in a much bigger mess than we found it thanks to this occupation. Bush wanted to be a war president so he could go down as a great president and only a war president can be great - Bush's own take on his presidency. I'm sorry, I don't have the source now. Ultimately, it is a small man given the power to sacrifice the lives of many so he could demonstrate his greatness. His thinking was this - nobody likes Saddam or should care that we overthrow him, the people will welcome us with open arms and I will be a hero who brought democracy to the middle east. This he believed and his advisors believed in spite of the fact that the smartest people in the world about these things told him otherwise. Seeing it through - we spent 12 years trying to see it through in Vietnam using exactly the same rationale - all it did was cost thousands of lives and billions of dollars.

 

[Ed]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Americans - Celebrate Your Independence!

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Fair? Who told you things were meant to be fair? Did Kissinger die for nothing?

I have a problem with the term "Iraqis", since Iraq is a construct of the 1920's and has no real national roots. The unfairness would apply to the Kurds, the Shi'a, the Sunnis, Circassians, Turkomans ... who live in that construct, and also to the Kuwaitis, Saudis, Syrians, Turks, Jordanians ... who would have to live with the consequences. Not to mention the rest of the world. There has to be a radical re-working of the whole region, just as happened after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, but this time with the involvement and input of the people that live there.

Except that we need their oil and a reigon run by a bunch of religious loony tunes might be problematic. Naturaally, given the strategic importance of oil and given the basic incompatibility of Islam and the West the US has, intellegently, evolved a program to make us independent of foreign oil by 2010 so that the fine folks over there can go back to mining sand or whatever they did before Henry Ford. . Oh, wait....

The chances of any radical thinking coming out of this White House are slight at best, but they are becoming more open to outside influences. Desperation is setting in, in other words. There's still some hope.

Well, a cutting of the gordian knot in the middle east is pretty rad, if it works. [/QUOTE]

 

[Manny]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Americans - Celebrate Your Independence!

I'll even have a Bud Light in your honour.

OK, that's just a low blow right there.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Americans - Celebrate Your Independence!

...There has to be a radical re-working of the whole region, just as happened after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, but this time with the involvement and input of the people that live there...

Hmmm, how about we just conquer the entire region and reorganize it as the United States of Arabia?

I like it.

 

[Skeptic]

Starting July 5th, freewaybloggers across the nation will begin placing signs on the freeways voicing their opposition to the war. These signs will continue going up through July and August and on until impeachment hearings begin in September.

Why is it that left-wing protests always involve so much littering and defacement? Obviously they're sure somebody else will clean up / remove the signs when they are done with them. Putting up protest signs is a job for a progressive. Taking it down when it becomes tattered and an eyesore... well, that's a job for the peasants.

Impeccable timing, too: right after the fourth of July. Yeah, just the time of year when the average American is most receptive to "your country sucks" messeges.

 

[Mycroft]

Starting July 5th, freewaybloggers across the nation will begin placing signs on the freeways voicing their opposition to the war. These signs will continue going up through July and August and on until impeachment hearings begin in September.

Why is it that left-wing protests always involve so much littering and defacement? Obviously they're sure somebody else will clean up / remove the signs when they are done with them. Putting up protest signs is a job for a progressive. Taking it down when it becomes tattered and an eyesore... well, that's a job for the peasants.

Impeccable timing, too: right after the fourth of July. Yeah, just the time of year when the average American is most receptive to "your country sucks" messeges.

A better protest would be roadside targets are placed with the images of Osama Bin Laden and other well known bad-guys with trash cans placed so someone throwing their trash at the image would probably get it in the trash can. A political statement with a public service combined.

 

[Cylinder]

Yeah, just the time of year when the average American is most receptive to "your country sucks" messeges.

My point exactly. Moonbats on parade.

 

[mgidm86]

"Freeway Bloggers"?

These signs will continue going up through July and August and on until impeachment hearings begin in September.

We'll see.

 

[treble_head]

Starting July 5th, freewaybloggers across the nation will begin placing signs on the freeways voicing their opposition to the war. These signs will continue going up through July and August and on until impeachment hearings begin in September.

I was totally going to vandalize sh!t to voice my opinion, but I guess it's all sorted. This will save on my KRYLON fund to stop Napster and Women's lack of rights and Segregated Bathrooms. WOOT! At least THIS issue isn't dead, right?... GUYS?... HEY! Come back!

Liberals can be such s**ts sometimes. I'm a liberal. We can smell our own.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Why is it that left-wing protests always involve so much littering and defacement?

Well, I guess it's for the same reason that right-wing demonstrations also involve exhibiting signs expressing their point of view --- or "littering and defacement", as you would put it.

This in turn is related to the facts that (a) America is a democracy (b) most American adults are literate.
___________________

Why is it that right-wing whining always involves grotesque double standards?

 

[Bruce]

I for one am glad that we won the war for independance. Just think, if the British had won the war, we would all be speaking English right now.

Cheerio!

 

[Skeptic]

THE TIME HAS COME ...

(Monty Python Voice)

No it didn't!

Well, I guess it's for the same reason that right-wing demonstrations also involve exhibiting signs expressing their point of view --- or "littering and defacement", as you would put it.

Right-wing protestors have the tendency to take the signs home with them when the protest is done, not stick it on public works for months on end with no permit and no thought of collecting it when it becomes an eyesore.

 

[Ed]

(b) most American adults are literate.
___________________

The vocabulary, though, is 127 words, mostly food related.

 

[Mephisto]

The left--as usual--offers up criticism but no real solutions.

The right --as usual-- get themselves in a jam because they didn't think, then they bitch about the solutions no one else is offering.

Immediate withdrawl from Iraq???........ Is that the solution?

Are you just wondering aloud, or asking me? You heard Rumsfeld say that as much as 12 years may be required to stop the insurgency effectively. Is America ready to stay the course of a mistake based on lies (at the expense of its sons and daughters) for TWELVE YEARS? Colin Powell told Bush long before the invasion, "you buy it, you pay for it." The problem is; it's much easier for Bush (a rich, White, Christian male) to pay for it than middle and lower class Americans. I'll support the war when Jenna and Barbara are with the Marines in Fallujah.

There are thousands of photographs of people protesting Bush.

Well, I guess you can't tell me that they're "isolated incidents" then can you? Must be those bleeding-heart liberal "hippies," huh? They never listen, do they? People like you have been telling them over and over how well the economy is doing, how the environment isn't in trouble, about the imminent threat of WMD, how the Iraqi people will greet us as liberators with flowers in the streets, how the oil production in Iraq will pay for the war and so on and on and on . . .

I haven't seen any evidence that the freedom to do that is being threatened.

"Controversy About Parts of the Patriot Act

The Act has since caused controversy between those who hail it as necessary to protect Americans and those who condemn the act as an invasion of privacy and infringement upon freedom of speech. In recent months, the Act has come under criticism from members of both houses of Congress, liberal and conservative organizations, and city and state governments."

http://libraries.uta.edu/actreact/default.asp
_________

"Currently, the act allows officials to track an individual's communications on the Internet, install telephone and computer wiretaps, obtain search warrants for voice-mail and e-mail messages, access personal information, such as medical, financial and educational histories, and access library records without proof of a crime."

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/july-dec03/patriotact_9-17.html
_________

Even if you don't see the above examples as the eroding of our privacy you can't convince me that the Bill of Rights is being protected in any way by our being in Iraq. The idea that our soldiers in Iraq are protecting our freedom is a fallacy that is promoted by people who don't want the troops using their rights as Americans to ask why they are there.

Should the "insurgents" win in Iraq however--there will be NO photographs of any protesters.

You're right, because the protestors ARE the insurgents. They don't carry placards with stupid phrases, they carry AK-47s and RPGs. By the way, did you admit to the fact that the insurgents COULD win?

I'm more interested in what constitutes winning. Are we there until there are no more armed "protests?" Are we there until the Iraqi army and police are just as good at getting blown up without us? Are we there until Iraqi women have equal rights? Just how far are we expected to go to spread Democracy? I'm sure it's the week after their "Democratic" oil starts flowing into our SUVs.

If it takes posting cardboard signs along highways to get America to realize that "forced Democracy" is an oxymoron that only a frigging moron can believe in, count me in.


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