American soldiers think it's ok to torture - DoD

[This Guy]

The bolding of mine shows what troubles me here. One third of all soldiers and Marines would find torture accetable to save a fellow soldier.

In the next instant, it is innocent lives that can be saved by torture.

Now, who is it? Troops or innocent lives? Because I don't think that troops at war in a foreign country are correctly labeled with the term "innocent". Certainly not in the meaning of civilians being blown up by a bomb in the morning train on their way to work.

My use of the word innocent was in reference to the fact that we are also fighting Al-Quada in Iraq. The use of innocent was an expression of my opinion, and not an attempt to throw that on the shoulders of the troops. I was thinking of the possibility that we could capture an Al-Quada operative (is that what they are called?) and possible head off the next 9/11 with effective "questioning" techniques. That would apply in Iraq, or Downtown Anytown USA as far as I'm concerned. but again, that part was my opinion/added by me.

 

[fishbob]

Maybe 1000's maybe 3. Who knows.

On the other hand, we very clearly know the down side of torture.
We don't even know if there is an up side.

Seems like a bad deal to me.

 

[skeptifem]

i dont know why they only interviewed marines. people dont seem to come out of marine training the same as they went in.


eta: i saw the cnn thing later, it wasnt all marines, nm.

 

[Davo]

I'd still prefer to surrender to American forces then Iranian forces, any day.

POWs in American prisons still get three hots and a cot.

Would you still say the same if American forces thought you were a terrorist and waterboarded you.

The british were recently captured by Iranian forces and were not tortured and treated relatively well.

If you remember back to the gulf war and the American pilots who were captured, again they were not tortured (from what I remember, correct me if I am wrong)

Unless the troops can speak the local language, I wouldn`t have thought torturing would be that effective anyhow.

 

[The Painter]

The british were recently captured by Iranian forces and were not tortured and treated relatively well.

Is this toture?

They were lined up while weapons were cocked, making them "fear the worst", one of the 15 freed sailors revealed.
The crew were told that if they did not admit they were in Iranian waters when captured that they faced seven years in prison, a press conference heard.
Opposing their captors was "not an option," they said.
And after the 15 marines and sailors were seized they were subjected to random interrogation and rough handling, and faced constant psychological pressure, they said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6533069.stm

Everyone says it is if the Americans do it.

 

[joe1347]

Would you still say the same if American forces thought you were a terrorist and waterboarded you.

The british were recently captured by Iranian forces and were not tortured and treated relatively well.

If you remember back to the gulf war and the American pilots who were captured, again they were not tortured (from what I remember, correct me if I am wrong)
Unless the troops can speak the local language, I wouldn`t have thought torturing would be that effective anyhow.

Actually, the captured US pilots were tortured. I seem to remember that some of the tortured pilots were involved in a lawsuit to claim some portion of Sadaams frozen overseas accounts. I wonder whatever happened to the Money?

 

[ponderingturtle]

They get much more than that. There was an article in NY times, or Wall street journal I forget where form writer that observed their treatment.
Get prayer time, meals that are inline with their beliefs,exercise time etc.

It's a country club, but you know what.

So you are scheduleing your next vacation to be in prison, as you get the same things in american prisons. Should we expand your definitions of punishment to the american penal system, because it is too soft on criminals?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Is there anyway to really know the answer to those?
I dont think they release that info.

Maybe 1000's maybe 3. Who knows.

If it saved 3 and cost 50 is it an effective technique?

 

[Drysdale]

So you are scheduleing your next vacation to be in prison, as you get the same things in american prisons. Should we expand your definitions of punishment to the american penal system, because it is too soft on criminals?

??? Not sure what your point is about me taking vacation in prison.
I've commited no crime and as much it's a stupid analogy.

Not sure what you're referring to as my definitions of punishment either really. If you're asking me are they pampered too much my answer is yes.
And yes that goes for some penal institutions too.

But lets not turn this into a discussion on America's penal system. That's a completely different topic.

 

[Drysdale]

If it saved 3 and cost 50 is it an effective technique?

Not sure how you're trying to quantify this.

But if it saved 3 innocent lives and cost 50 terrorisits lives yes I'd take that swap.

 

[ponderingturtle]

??? Not sure what your point is about me taking vacation in prison.
I've commited no crime and as much it's a stupid analogy.

You called it a country club. Well people vacation at places that are like country clubs so why wouldn't you concider such a vacation?

Not sure what you're referring to as my definitions of punishment either really. If you're asking me are they pampered too much my answer is yes.
And yes that goes for some penal institutions too.

But lets not turn this into a discussion on America's penal system. That's a completely different topic.

No it is not. You are talking about how nice the detention system is with in the military, but with the elements you cite you get those in prisons in this country. So you think they are country clubs and logicaly people like to vacation at places that they concider to be like country clubs.

 

[Drysdale]

You called it a country club. Well people vacation at places that are like country clubs so why wouldn't you concider such a vacation?


No it is not. You are talking about how nice the detention system is with in the military, but with the elements you cite you get those in prisons in this country. So you think they are country clubs and logicaly people like to vacation at places that they concider to be like country clubs.

Because I'm not a criminal. And I'm referring to it in the context that comparitively speaking, how our POW's have been detained historically by our enemies in comparison to how we treat the Iraqi prisoners is a country club.

Is it that difficult to grasp that?

 

[sphenisc]

The act of torture damages the torturer as well as the torturee. You can't encourage people to act like beasts, then be surprised when they do--in other settings. The loyal terrorist-fighting soldier who's torturing Iraqis on Wednesday will be slicing up girlfriends next year.

Heck, we consider abuse of animals to be indicative of a psychopathic nature that may well lead to serial killing. Some kid chops the ears off a rabbit and it's time for shrinks, or twenty years later it's a special on Court TV. What the hell is going to result from people letting their Hostel fantasies run rampant, then expecting them to come home and switch it off? Ordinary warfare ****s people's heads up enough, do we really want to branch out into sadism?

If the whole thing could be mechanized would that make it more acceptable to you?

 

[TragicMonkey]

If the whole thing could be mechanized would that make it more acceptable to you?

No, that would make it worse, because you'd have people engineering torture devices and not having to witness the results. If people are going to be evil, they should at least be evil in person, and not detached and clinical about it. At least if they're directly involved, there's a chance they'll repent and reform.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Torture is necessary at times. Stop being such a liberal. Maybe we should shoot each other with rubber bullets.

Has torture saved the lives of anyone?

 

[thaiboxerken]

Is there anyway to really know the answer to those?
I dont think they release that info.

Maybe 1000's maybe 3. Who knows.

More likely, none. That's why they don't release that info.

 

[Beerina]

Has torture saved the lives of anyone?

It's a novel, new use to be sure, isn't it?

Normally it's used to save the...power of dictators.

 

[Corsair 115]

Torture is necessary at times.

Be sure to let the police know that should they ever suspect you of having committed a serious crime.

 

[thaiboxerken]

It's a novel, new use to be sure, isn't it?

Well, in novels, movies and television shows, it's not that new. However, I have yet to hear a case where information recieved from torture saved even one innocent life. It seems rather obvious to me that the information a torturer recieves is the information they wish to hear. A good torturer could make a prisoner "confess" to killing Bugs Bunny with Elmer Fudd's gun.

Somehow, many of the conservative types don't seem to understand this.

FYI, I get the feeling that you're against torture from your tongue-in-cheek post.

 

[Mycroft]

The bolding of mine shows what troubles me here. One third of all soldiers and Marines would find torture accetable to save a fellow soldier.

In the next instant, it is innocent lives that can be saved by torture.

Now, who is it? Troops or innocent lives? Because I don't think that troops at war in a foreign country are correctly labeled with the term "innocent". Certainly not in the meaning of civilians being blown up by a bomb in the morning train on their way to work.

You seem to be needlessly splitting hairs.

Troops are innocent, in the sense that being troops does not in itself make them guilty of anything.

Certainly for the enemy, targeting troops is expected and not considered to be heinous behavior as would be targeting civilians, but soldiers are also expected to try to preserve the lives of fellow soldiers, and to expend at least as much effort in doing so as they would to preserve the lives of civilians.