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Merged All things Trump + Russia

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skyeagle409 said:
The Russians have made their mark for the whole world to see. So once again, if the Russians denied they were involved, that's proof enough they were. Their initial denial regarding the downing of Korean 007, which involved me and my aircraft in recovery operations, their explanation of the downing of MH-17, Crimea, Ukraine, etc., are prime examples.
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This doesn't change my assessment that this is poor logic.
 
Stacko said:
Pro-Russian Lobbyist Is Lurking Around the White House



No wonder the administration is upset with the new sanctions passed by the Senate.
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How far off from blacklisting people are we?

McCarthyism
McCarthyism is the practice of making accusations of subversion or treason without proper regard for evidence.
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Just substitute "collusion" for "treason", and replace any reference to "Communism" with "Russian".
McCarthyism soon took on a broader meaning, describing the excesses of similar efforts. The term is also now used more generally to describe reckless, unsubstantiated accusations, as well as demagogic attacks on the character or patriotism of political adversaries. During the McCarthy era, thousands of Americans were accused of being communists or communist sympathizers and became the subject of aggressive investigations and questioning before government or private-industry panels, committees and agencies. The primary targets of such suspicions were government employees, those in the entertainment industry, educators and union activists. Suspicions were often given credence despite inconclusive or questionable evidence, and the level of threat posed by a person's real or supposed leftist associations or beliefs was often greatly exaggerated. Many people suffered loss of employment or destruction of their careers; some even suffered imprisonment. Most of these punishments came about through trial verdicts later overturned,[3] laws that were later declared unconstitutional,[4] dismissals for reasons later declared illegal[5] or actionable,[6] or extra-legal procedures that would come into general disrepute.
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C_Felix said:
I'm curious about this post.

Is this a mild case of "Whataboutism?"

Did Dr. Stein disclose this meeting?
Did she not?
Did she have to disclose it?

I truly don't know.
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Stein would not have had to disclose the meeting unless she was being paid as an agent of Russia and then there is a form needed. You don't need a security clearance unless you are going to be shown classified material.

The Photo That May Help Unlock the Trump-Russia Scandal
Little noticed at the time, Vladimir Putin’s guests that night included Flynn and future Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein—an odd couple who reflected the Russian president’s efforts to court fringe figures on both the right and the left and otherwise meddle in US politics. (Also at the table were Putin’s spokesman, chief of staff, and deputy chief of staff.)

Stein said the soiree was “a great opportunity to lay out some of my foreign policy proposals and get Russian reactions to them.”
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Apparently she wasn't savvy enough to garner a fee. I wonder who paid for her trip, though, her campaign donors?

[/sidetrack] At least it's a sidetrack as far as we know at the moment. But I think Putin courting other candidates besides Trump is at least a tad significant. I think it's also significant that with Stein there, it suggests that Flynn was there on Trump's behalf.

The dinner date: December 2015.

Flynn Wiki
Having already been consulted regarding national security by Fiorina as well as other candidates, including Scott Walker, Ben Carson, Ted Cruz, and Donald Trump,[59] Flynn was asked in February 2016 to serve as an adviser to the Trump campaign.[60]
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It is unlikely that Trump only contacted Flynn after the dinner. But there is plausible deniability since Trump was not yet the nominee. That would make Flynn freelancing at that point.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
How far off from blacklisting people are we?

McCarthyism

Just substitute "collusion" for "treason", and replace any reference to "Communism" with "Russian".
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That is indeed one damn fine strawman you're beating the stuffing out of.

Blacklisting? McCarthyism? Apply your own standard of skepticism, the one you keep lecturing us about, to your characterization.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Stein would not have had to disclose the meeting unless she was being paid as an agent of Russia and then there is a form needed. You don't need a security clearance unless you are going to be shown classified material.

The Photo That May Help Unlock the Trump-Russia ScandalApparently she wasn't savvy enough to garner a fee. I wonder who paid for her trip, though, her campaign donors?

[/sidetrack] At least it's a sidetrack as far as we know at the moment. But I think Putin courting other candidates besides Trump is at least a tad significant. I think it's also significant that with Stein there, it suggests that Flynn was there on Trump's behalf. The dinner date: December 2015.

Flynn Wiki
It is unlikely that Trump only contacted Flynn after the dinner. But there is plausible deniability since Trump was not yet the nominee. That would make Flynn freelancing at that point.
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Why would Stein being there suggest that Flynn was there on Trump's behalf?
 
Emily's Cat said:
This doesn't change my assessment that this is poor logic.
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What you think is poor logic simply means that you have yet to face up to reality. I am well aware of Russian doctrine based on what I was taught during my "Rumors and Propaganda" course and what I have experienced in the field in regard to Russian doctrine and once again, I experienced Russian use of that doctrine in an incident for which I was called upon to provide support. It seems the Russians were unaware of the data was collected on the incident at the time when they denied involvement. Faced with the facts, the Russians had no choice but to admit to their involvement in the incident. With Putin at the helm, it's business as usual and let's not forget that Putin was a KGB agent who burned KGB files when the Berlin Wall fell.

You have to understand that Putin is not a friend of the United States and thanks to Putin, he has been making Trump look like the idiot that he is, which is not good for America.
 
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skyeagle409 said:
What you think is poor logic simply means that you have yet to face up to reality. I am well aware of Russian doctrine based on what I was taught during my "Rumors and Propaganda" course and what I have experienced in the field in regard to Russian doctrine and once again, I experienced Russian use of that doctrine in an incident for which I was called upon to provide support. It seems the Russians were unaware of the data was collected on the incident at the time when they denied involvement. Faced with the facts, the Russians had no choice but to admit to their involvement in the incident. With Putin at the helm, it's business as usual and let's not forget that Putin was a KGB agent who burned KGB files when the Berlin Wall fell.
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Did your "Rumors and Propaganda" class teach you about all of the things that America is engaged in, with respect to those topics?

skyeagle409 said:
You have to understand that Putin is not a friend of the United States and thanks to Putin, he has been making Trump look like the idiot that he is, which is not good for America.
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No foreign entity is a "friend" of the US. They are allies only so far as it benefits them to be so. Exactly the same as we are to them.

And Putin hasn't been making Trump look bad - Trump has been making Trump look bad. Seriously, if Russia wants to destroy American democracy, pretty sure all they have to do is sit back and laugh - we're happily accomplishing their goals all by ourselves. Do you think the political strife among citizens that is now rampant and frighteningly vehement won't have an impact?

For all of my life, there have been political disagreements and ideological schisms. This is the first time I've ever been concerned that open rebellion and civil war might be plausible. And it's not the congress-critters I'm worried about - it's everyday people on the streets and the interwebs. It's the concerted effort to deny the rights of others on the basis of belief. Don't like what someone has to say? No problem - just threaten violence, throw a few rocks, and you'll get your way! Go ahead and silence political opposition, that's totally the way to win! :rolleyes:
 
Emily's Cat said:
Did your "Rumors and Propaganda" class teach you about all of the things that America is engaged in, with respect to those topics?


No foreign entity is a "friend" of the US. They are allies only so far as it benefits them to be so. Exactly the same as we are to them.

And Putin hasn't been making Trump look bad - Trump has been making Trump look bad. Seriously, if Russia wants to destroy American democracy, pretty sure all they have to do is sit back and laugh - we're happily accomplishing their goals all by ourselves. Do you think the political strife among citizens that is now rampant and frighteningly vehement won't have an impact?

For all of my life, there have been political disagreements and ideological schisms. This is the first time I've ever been concerned that open rebellion and civil war might be plausible. And it's not the congress-critters I'm worried about - it's everyday people on the streets and the interwebs. It's the concerted effort to deny the rights of others on the basis of belief. Don't like what someone has to say? No problem - just threaten violence, throw a few rocks, and you'll get your way! Go ahead and silence political opposition, that's totally the way to win! :rolleyes:
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Threatening violence, throwing a few rocks, et al, are nothing new. That sort of attitude has been common among conservatives, including the Southern Democrats that Nixon courted, for decades. Have you never heard of lynching? The KKK?

I find it depressing how so many conservatives have suddenly decided how scary and violent rhetoric and actions are bad after the baseball shooting, but these same folks have turned a blind eye to the Ted Nugent's, Gabby Gifford's shooter, etc, of the world. Decades of violent talk and action had even our current president advocating murder of his opponent (2nd amendment solution) and it was fine, but now that one "lefty" joins in, the Pearl clutching begins.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
It is unlikely that Trump only contacted Flynn after the dinner. But there is plausible deniability since Trump was not yet the nominee. That would make Flynn freelancing at that point.
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This points to something I've mentioned before : what passes for Trump's circle has myriad connections to Russian business and politics for entirely unrelated reasons, dating back to the 90's. He depends on them being open about it if he's not to be tarred by association, and Flynn's let him down already. (This is not to suggest that Trump knows he depends on them or has the faintest clue what's going on at any point in time, of course. He doesn't know how dirty his associates tend to be, nor would he understand what they actually got up to.)

The direct danger to Trump, I strongly suspect, is to be found in Russian money-laundering through the Western high-end property market. If the Gods still love poetry, that's the way it will go.
 
wareyin said:
Threatening violence, throwing a few rocks, et al, are nothing new. That sort of attitude has been common among conservatives, including the Southern Democrats that Nixon courted, for decades. Have you never heard of lynching? The KKK?

I find it depressing how so many conservatives have suddenly decided how scary and violent rhetoric and actions are bad after the baseball shooting, but these same folks have turned a blind eye to the Ted Nugent's, Gabby Gifford's shooter, etc, of the world. Decades of violent talk and action had even our current president advocating murder of his opponent (2nd amendment solution) and it was fine, but now that one "lefty" joins in, the Pearl clutching begins.
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I agree there is a massive amount of hypocrisy on the right about his issue, but it is not like the left does not have a history of violent rhetoric and justifying violence .
Rembemer Jesse Jackson and "No Justice, No Peace?"
among others? It's equally disgusting coming from either side.
 
wareyin said:
I find it depressing how so many conservatives have suddenly decided how scary and violent rhetoric and actions are bad after the baseball shooting, but these same folks have turned a blind eye to the Ted Nugent's, Gabby Gifford's shooter, etc, of the world. Decades of violent talk and action had even our current president advocating murder of his opponent (2nd amendment solution) and it was fine, but now that one "lefty" joins in, the Pearl clutching begins.
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I find it quite jaw-dropping, given what they've not complained about going back to the radio shock-jocks they happily associated with in the 90's, let alone what went on in the Obama period.

It is, without question, the GOP which has degraded US politics and political discourse, and quite deliberately.
 
dudalb said:
I agree there is a massive amount of hypocrisy on the right about his issue, but it is not like the left does not have a history of violent rhetoric and justifying violence .
Rembemer Jesse Jackson and "No Justice, No Peace?"
among others? It's equally disgusting coming from either side.
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Remember Jesse Jackson became part of the solution, just as Gerry Adams did in Northern Ireland, and frankly without justice there is no peace - see Israel.

The left does have a history of violent rhetoric, but it has always been on the offense against established positions, and that's when rhetoric laced with violence is most called for.
 
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