Merged All things Trump + Russia

[varwoche]

Schiff to seek testimony from Trump 'dossier' author

Please, yes. The entertainment value alone could be comedy gold.

 

[dudalb]

The irony is that there are signs that Putin has become disgusted with Trump. He wanted a stupid puppet as POTUS,but not one so Stupid as to be dysfunctional.
I think Putin had a number of goals in playing around in the election:If he wanted to create chaos he has succeeded,if he wanted to get someone as Potus he could manipulate into changing policy he has failed. The whole Russia/Trump scandal has backfired;it has become politically toxic to come out in favor of a "softer" policy toward Russia, and, possibly to Putin's surprise, Trump cannot make serious changes to US policy toward Russia without Congress coming on board, and that is now impossble. It is the one area where the GOP congress critters have really pushed back on the White House.
They might try to sweep Trump's ties to Russia under the rug, but no way will they adapt a "Putin friendly" policy.

 

[trustbutverify]

The irony is that there are signs that Putin has become disgusted with Trump. He wanted a stupid puppet as POTUS,but not one so Stupid as to be dysfunctional.
I think Putin had a number of goals in playing around in the election:If he wanted to create chaos he has succeeded,if he wanted to get someone as Potus he could manipulate into changing policy he has failed. The whole Russia/Trump scandal has backfired;it has become politically toxic to come out in favor of a "softer" policy toward Russia, and, possibly to Putin's surprise, Trump cannot make serious changes to US policy toward Russia without Congress coming on board, and that is now impossble. It is the one area where the GOP congress critters have really pushed back on the White House.
They might try to sweep Trump's ties to Russia under the rug, but no way will they adapt a "Putin friendly" policy.

Things haven't gone perfectly, but I'd say Putin's American campaign has been a tremendous success overall.

 

[Jim_MDP]

Things haven't gone perfectly, but I'd say Putin's American campaign has been a tremendous success overall.

Maybe, maybe not... for now.

Putin is a simple man, among other things he wants power and... profit, sanctions lifted and deals reopened; profit; NATO weakened; profit; former territory reacquired; profit; etc.

I'm not sure how comfortable the Republicans (or Dems) are going to be if we edge much closer to giving him much of that.

I mean... my god, it the Russians.

I think the still sanctioned Exxon deal is the immediate profit prize.
That's a half trillion dollar endeavor... I can't imagine ten or more of those billions don't find their way into Vlad's bank accounts.

 

[Polaris]

The irony is that there are signs that Putin has become disgusted with Trump. He wanted a stupid puppet as POTUS,but not one so Stupid as to be dysfunctional.
I think Putin had a number of goals in playing around in the election:If he wanted to create chaos he has succeeded,if he wanted to get someone as Potus he could manipulate into changing policy he has failed. The whole Russia/Trump scandal has backfired;it has become politically toxic to come out in favor of a "softer" policy toward Russia, and, possibly to Putin's surprise, Trump cannot make serious changes to US policy toward Russia without Congress coming on board, and that is now impossble. It is the one area where the GOP congress critters have really pushed back on the White House.
They might try to sweep Trump's ties to Russia under the rug, but no way will they adapt a "Putin friendly" policy.

There's also the speculation that his goal was less about putting Trump in the White House than making sure Clinton lost. That Trump would be a blob of clay Putin could mold was just icing on the cake, and that if he turned out to less than malleable, well, Putin could live with that.

 

[trustbutverify]

Maybe, maybe not... for now.

Putin is a simple man, among other things he wants power and... profit, sanctions lifted and deals reopened; profit; NATO weakened; profit; former territory reacquired; profit; etc.

Looking at both the Russian domestic and international landscapes, including Putin's current personal net worth, I can't see any reasonable assessment other than yuuuge success. How long things stay that way, I don't know.

 

[Jim_MDP]

Looking at both the Russian domestic and international landscapes, including Putin's current personal net worth, I can't see any reasonable assessment other than yuuuge success. How long things stay that way, I don't know.

Well the groundwork for future endeavors has been laid as well, without a doubt.

He solidified his position pre-2000... he seems comfortable taking the long view. And his use of leverage purposely gathered decades earlier shows he's patient.
I said he had simple goals... not that he's in any way a stupid man. Quite the opposite in fact. Without active resistance... he'll get there in the end.

Wherever that may be. You can usually find it by following the trail of bodies.


eta: It just occurred to me... he's probably laughed himself sore over the way we name major division heads "Czar".

 

[Jim_MDP]

Trying to watch Maddow between pizza shell proofings, but...

It looks like I'm on the same page she is, though she has a far greater and deeper knowledge of the issues.

We and Russia are not ideological allies.
And they have been gutting our governmental resistance to their (Putin's) desires.

If the GOP hasn't been listening to her and the like... they damn well better start.
Depending on if this gets bad or gets reined back in... they're going to have to explain their individual positions on all of this.

 

[trustbutverify]

Right on.

Meanwhile, Maddow is absolutely killing it again. Probably won't result in the lengthy prison terms called for, but at least there'll be a record.

 

[stevea]

If the FISA warrant isn't public information because its an ongoing investigation, and Trump learned about the wiretapping from Breitbart, how did Breitbart get confirmation of the wiretapping/FISA warrant?

FISA court proceedings aren't public info b/c it's a SECRET COURT. It's my (limited) understanding that court proceedings are classified, and undergo the same declassification procedures and process as other government classified info (aka WikiLeaks).

Any reasonable person should find the idea of secret courts and mass surveillance as revolting and antithetical to liberty and a limited state - and both big parties carry a lot of blame.

Breitbart was reporting on a 'Heat Street' (owned by New Corp!) article (someone gave the link above, but BBC & The Guardian have similar related reports.

So we have ...
http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...ma-used-police-state-tactics-undermine-trump/

https://heatst.com/world/exclusive-fbi-granted-fisa-warrant-covering-trump-camps-ties-to-russia/

but with more credibility IMO,
From January,
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38589427

Their first [FISA] application, in June, was rejected outright by the judge. They returned with a more narrowly drawn order in July and were rejected again. Finally, before a new judge, the order was granted, on 15 October, three weeks before election day.

Neither Mr Trump nor his associates are named in the Fisa order, which would only cover foreign citizens or foreign entities - in this case the Russian banks. But ultimately, the investigation is looking for transfers of money from Russia to the United States, each one, if proved, a felony offence.
A lawyer- outside the Department of Justice but familiar with the case - told me that three of Mr Trump's associates were the subject of the inquiry. "But it's clear this is about Trump," he said.

and

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...-mccain-alleging-secret-trump-russia-contacts

The Guardian has learned that the FBI applied for a warrant from the foreign intelligence surveillance (Fisa) court over the summer in order to monitor four members of the Trump team suspected of irregular contacts with Russian officials. The Fisa court turned down the application asking FBI counter-intelligence investigators to narrow its focus. According to one report, the FBI was finally granted a warrant in October, but that has not been confirmed, and it is not clear whether any warrant led to a full investigation.

*BUT* you should search the more recent TheGuardian articles where they equivocate parts of this.


------

The news media continues the same pattern like an abused spouse, no matter how many times Trump makes an outrageous unsupported claim via Twitter, the press makes a big story of it, (OK sort of), but then they continue with hours and hours of analysis and punditry as if the Tweet was anything other than blatant nonsense.

You missed that this is OBVIOUS Left-media trolling by Trump, and not "nonsense", but targeted bee stings INTENDED to create Left-outrage. Obama did similar ~8 years ago when he failed to release his birth certificate for 2+yrs (5/2011) in order to keep the Right-crazies in turmoil. Trump is just doing the same to the Left. It's sort of an advanced form of feces-flinging that ill-mannered, uncivil politicians engage in to enrage their opposition. 'Don't feed the trolls' still applies.


===


More interesting is that the Dem party is now the "conservative" party, trying to prevent change, and re-create a fabled past state of affairs. They aren't using the "Red scare" tactic very effectively.

Is anyone alarmed that a Hotelier building in Abu Dhabi deals with money from the Russian Kleptocracy ? Is anyone surprised that the CEO of a major multi-national oil company has dealt with Russia (the 2nd/3rd oil producer) ? Sheesh Armand Hammer was promoting Russian relations during the cold war era.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armand_Hammer
Is anyone surprised that members of the executive & legislative branch have met with the Russian Ambassador to the US ? Of course we expect, based on history, that the Russian Embassy & NATO staff support espionage (and presumably ours do the same), but calling Kislyak, the Russian ambassador "one of Russia's top spies" is laughable hyperbole, and irresponsible yellow journalism.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/01/politics/jeff-sessions-russian-ambassador-meetings/index.html


Then there is the "Russian Attack of the US" Left taking point; pure "1984" Ministry of Truth language distortion. SOMEONE hacked the Dem Party servers, b/c of a phishing exploit, wherein Podesta changed his password to "password" ! This talking point is wrong-headed for three reasons. No one can ascertain that Russia was behind this except by circumstantial evidence - readily manufactured to mislead. The Dem party is a private organization, not "the USA". The Dem party is free to secure their servers or not. I find their lack of security very unfortunate for the republic, but doesn't rise to the level of "attack". As long ago as 28 years ago, I worked on computer systems that required serious passwords - why the Dem IT staff failed to use (probably actively disabled) this basic system management feature or better yet used smart-cards or keys - suggests IT incompetence. It may be "naughty" to stare at your neighbors when they leave their blinds open, or to read the mail your co-works leave open on their desks - but it is not an "attack" when things are made so available. I could make a more coherent argument that the Dem IT staff sabotaged the server in order to distort the election.

====

I stopped listening to Maddow some years ago - she then regularly substituted smarmy condescension for evidence, a form of an ad populam fallacy ('wink wink - we all know the REAL TRUTH', despite a lack of evidence). IOW she falls closer to a Hannity mirror image than say even an O'Reilly - and I would need a LOAD of hard evidence and more reliable review sources to believe any of these.

So far the Left has been blowing a load of smoke and Trump has thrown some of the smoke-bombs back. No fires ... yet.

 

[sunmaster14]

FISA court proceedings aren't public info b/c it's a SECRET COURT. It's my (limited) understanding that court proceedings are classified, and undergo the same declassification procedures and process as other government classified info (aka WikiLeaks).

Any reasonable person should find the idea of secret courts and mass surveillance as revolting and antithetical to liberty and a limited state - and both big parties carry a lot of blame.

Breitbart was reporting on a 'Heat Street' (owned by New Corp!) article (someone gave the link above, but BBC & The Guardian have similar related reports.

So we have ...
http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...ma-used-police-state-tactics-undermine-trump/

https://heatst.com/world/exclusive-fbi-granted-fisa-warrant-covering-trump-camps-ties-to-russia/

but with more credibility IMO,
From January,
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38589427



and

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...-mccain-alleging-secret-trump-russia-contacts



*BUT* you should search the more recent TheGuardian articles where they equivocate parts of this.


------


You missed that this is OBVIOUS Left-media trolling by Trump, and not "nonsense", but targeted bee stings INTENDED to create Left-outrage. Obama did similar ~8 years ago when he failed to release his birth certificate for 2+yrs (5/2011) in order to keep the Right-crazies in turmoil. Trump is just doing the same to the Left. It's sort of an advanced form of feces-flinging that ill-mannered, uncivil politicians engage in to enrage their opposition. 'Don't feed the trolls' still applies.


===


More interesting is that the Dem party is now the "conservative" party, trying to prevent change, and re-create a fabled past state of affairs. They aren't using the "Red scare" tactic very effectively.

Is anyone alarmed that a Hotelier building in Abu Dhabi deals with money from the Russian Kleptocracy ? Is anyone surprised that the CEO of a major multi-national oil company has dealt with Russia (the 2nd/3rd oil producer) ? Sheesh Armand Hammer was promoting Russian relations during the cold war era.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armand_Hammer
Is anyone surprised that members of the executive & legislative branch have met with the Russian Ambassador to the US ? Of course we expect, based on history, that the Russian Embassy & NATO staff support espionage (and presumably ours do the same), but calling Kislyak, the Russian ambassador "one of Russia's top spies" is laughable hyperbole, and irresponsible yellow journalism.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/01/politics/jeff-sessions-russian-ambassador-meetings/index.html


Then there is the "Russian Attack of the US" Left taking point; pure "1984" Ministry of Truth language distortion. SOMEONE hacked the Dem Party servers, b/c of a phishing exploit, wherein Podesta changed his password to "password" ! This talking point is wrong-headed for three reasons. No one can ascertain that Russia was behind this except by circumstantial evidence - readily manufactured to mislead. The Dem party is a private organization, not "the USA". The Dem party is free to secure their servers or not. I find their lack of security very unfortunate for the republic, but doesn't rise to the level of "attack". As long ago as 28 years ago, I worked on computer systems that required serious passwords - why the Dem IT staff failed to use (probably actively disabled) this basic system management feature or better yet used smart-cards or keys - suggests IT incompetence. It may be "naughty" to stare at your neighbors when they leave their blinds open, or to read the mail your co-works leave open on their desks - but it is not an "attack" when things are made so available. I could make a more coherent argument that the Dem IT staff sabotaged the server in order to distort the election.

====

I stopped listening to Maddow some years ago - she then regularly substituted smarmy condescension for evidence, a form of an ad populam fallacy ('wink wink - we all know the REAL TRUTH', despite a lack of evidence). IOW she falls closer to a Hannity mirror image than say even an O'Reilly - and I would need a LOAD of hard evidence and more reliable review sources to believe any of these.

So far the Left has been blowing a load of smoke and Trump has thrown some of the smoke-bombs back. No fires ... yet.

All very well said and insightful.

 

[A'isha]

FISA court proceedings aren't public info b/c it's a SECRET COURT. It's my (limited) understanding that court proceedings are classified, and undergo the same declassification procedures and process as other government classified info (aka WikiLeaks).

Any reasonable person should find the idea of secret courts and mass surveillance as revolting and antithetical to liberty and a limited state - and both big parties carry a lot of blame.

Which is true, but irrelevant to the matter at hand.

Breitbart was reporting on a 'Heat Street' (owned by New Corp!) article (someone gave the link above, but BBC & The Guardian have similar related reports.

So we have ...
http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...ma-used-police-state-tactics-undermine-trump/

https://heatst.com/world/exclusive-fbi-granted-fisa-warrant-covering-trump-camps-ties-to-russia/

but with more credibility IMO,
From January,
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38589427



and

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...-mccain-alleging-secret-trump-russia-contacts

Which means Trump's claim that Obama was tapping his phones in Trump Tower is false.

You missed that this is OBVIOUS Left-media trolling by Trump, and not "nonsense", but targeted bee stings INTENDED to create Left-outrage.

Which means that Trump's claim that Obama was tapping his phones in Trump Tower is not only false, it was deliberately false.

Obama did similar ~8 years ago when he failed to release his birth certificate for 2+yrs (5/2011) in order to keep the Right-crazies in turmoil. Trump is just doing the same to the Left. It's sort of an advanced form of feces-flinging that ill-mannered, uncivil politicians engage in to enrage their opposition. 'Don't feed the trolls' still applies.

Not really. Long before he was elected, Obama released the short-form birth certificate that Hawaii issues to everyone who requests a copy. He only took the time and effort to get Hawaii to go outside their own established procedures and issue him a copy of his original birth certificate in 2011 because people like Trump wouldn't stop their false claims that his short form certificate was fraudulent. And even then, his "trolling" didn't involve deliberate lies the way Trump's wiretapping claims do - his long form certificate showed that his short form certificate was, indeed, entirely accurate and legitimate.

More interesting is that the Dem party is now the "conservative" party, trying to prevent change, and re-create a fabled past state of affairs. They aren't using the "Red scare" tactic very effectively.

Not nearly as interesting how the Republican party went from "Russia is the greatest threat ever" when Romney was running to "illicit contacts with Russia by the campaign of the candidate who the Russians intervened in the election to try and help? Meh."

 

[Ian Osborne]

Psychologists plead for Trump to be removed because, well; he's barking.

 

[sunmaster14]

<snip>

Not nearly as interesting how the Republican party went from "Russia is the greatest threat ever" when Romney was running to "illicit contacts with Russia by the campaign of the candidate who the Russians intervened in the election to try and help? Meh."

Illicit?

 

[Belz...]

Keeps piling up.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

.... You missed that this is OBVIOUS Left-media trolling by Trump, and not "nonsense", but targeted bee stings INTENDED to create Left-outrage. ...

Not sure what your point is but you missed mine. Anyone who thinks Trump actually has a plan when he Tweets his outrageous nonsense hasn't been paying attention.

Trump Tweets like a petulant child because he is a petulant child.

It's no more complex than that, no more thought out than that, no diabolical strategy, nada. We have more than a year of evidence supporting that conclusion but some people just can't believe Trump actually has a bonafide personality disorder so they add all this nonsense to explain his behavior.

 

[trustbutverify]

Keeps piling up.

C'mon, it's perfectly normal for Russian officials to help the Republican party modify it's platform by changing one plank which, coincidentally, directly benefits the Putin regime. Happens all the time. I mean, it's not as if there was any quid pro quo or anything.

 

[Stacko]

FBI still investigating computer link between Trump Organization and Russian bank.

Federal investigators and computer scientists continue to examine whether there was a computer server connection between the Trump Organization and a Russian bank, sources close to the investigation tell CNN.

Questions about the possible connection were widely dismissed four months ago. But the FBI's investigation remains open, the sources said, and is in the hands of the FBI's counterintelligence team -- the same one looking into Russia's suspected interference in the 2016 election.

One U.S. official said investigators find the server relationship "odd" and are not ignoring it. But the official said there is still more work for the FBI to do. Investigators have not yet determined whether a connection would be significant.

 

[varwoche]

C'mon, it's perfectly normal for Russian officials to help the Republican party modify it's platform by changing one plank which, coincidentally, directly benefits the Putin regime. Happens all the time. I mean, it's not as if there was any quid pro quo or anything.

Worse yet, the Trump camp denied involvement in the change -- yet another blatant lie -- as if it happened by magic.

Ho hum, a day in the life of Donald Trump.

 

[varwoche]

For the record, here's Manafort in Aug 2016 denying Trump campaign involvement in the platform change.

It absolutely did not come from the campaign.