Cont: All things Trump + Russia Part 2

[phiwum]

What they intended and what is some sort of tradition and Norm is irrelevant when the instruction is clear. Contrary to convention, the Constitution is a suicide pact.

Whoa, that's deep, man.

 

[acbytesla]

You are mixing up a few things. I never said they didn't have the power to discuss the issue. What I am saying is if that discussion turns to united States V Nixon, the fact one involved a lawful court order and this does not represents a huge difference. And to apply the former to the latter is a massive expansion. They would have a much stronger foundation if they simply wrote"because we don't like you."

Not discuss. Rule. And the rest of this is absurd. US v Nixon would just be a case that they probably would cite among other things as part of their reason. That being the President does not provide unlimited power to commit crimes.

 

[WilliamSeger]

The healthy checks and balances is impeachment.

No, it isn't; that would give him immunity from crimes that didn't reach "high crimes" level for impeachment.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Congress wants to impeach you? Have the leadership murdered, then pardon yourself for it. Winning!

Then they could just impeach for murder.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Not discuss. Rule. And the rest of this is absurd. US v Nixon would just be a case that they probably would cite among other things as part of their reason. That being the President does not provide unlimited power to commit crimes.

Of course they can rule on the issue.and that ruling would not involve united States v Nixon because that would be stupid.

 

[BobTheCoward]

No, it isn't; that would give him immunity from crimes that didn't reach "high crimes" level for impeachment.

They are the sole judge of what is a high crime.

Because his power is not unlimited. He can be impeached.

 

[acbytesla]

Trump just sandbagged his own lawyer.

The Washington Post reported Thursday that President Donald Trump asked advisers about his power to pardon aides, family members and even himself in connection with special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation into Russia. NBC has not confirmed the report. Trump's lawyer, John Dowd, called the story "nonsense."
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/can-president-pardon-himself-n785181

Today Trump tweets 'all agree, he has complete power to pardon'

 

[acbytesla]

Of course they can rule on the issue.and that ruling would not involve united States v Nixon because that would be stupid.

I would bet money that they would cite it.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Here is another issue with the above the law and above punishment argument. Those same problems apply to pardons for others. Someone who is able to receive constant pardons from the president is above the law. But no one questions the president has the power to do that. The fact the target of the pardon would be the president doesn't alter the above the law argument.

 

[Minoosh]

Your response here seems to indicate that you have no point. Or rather, that the point is that left = bad.

That's not enough?

 

[BobTheCoward]

I would bet money that they would cite it.

Then they do so politically rather than making a consistent argument with the Constitution.

 

[nelsondogg]

Then they could just impeach for murder.

What! Just have those bastards murdered and pardon yourself again. Eventually congress will learn and impeachments will stop.

 

[acbytesla]

Then they do so politically rather than making a consistent argument with the Constitution.

It's part of the case law. It is about the limits of the Presidency when it comes to illegal actions.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Here is another issue with the above the law and above punishment argument. Those same problems apply to pardons for others. Someone who is able to receive constant pardons from the president is above the law. But no one questions the president has the power to do that. The fact the target of the pardon would be the president doesn't alter the above the law argument.

Heck, that is even worst because that person cannot be impeached.

 

[Minoosh]

It would be stupid to release his tax returns.

Why?

No, no one was going to go against the first black president.

"No one"? You sure about that?

 

[WilliamSeger]

They are the sole judge of what is a high crime.

Because his power is not unlimited. He can be impeached.

What other citizen has immunity from petty crimes?

 

[BobTheCoward]

What other citizen has immunity from petty crimes?

Anyone the president chooses to grant blanket immunity to. They can't even be impeached. Whether it is himself or someone else, they get immunity for petty crimes. That is why that isn't a great argument against self pardon.

Plus a president can be impeached for petty crime.

 

[Babbylonian]

Whoa, that's deep, man.

Utter nonsense often seems so. Unfortunately for all BTC's arguments, the Constitution doesn't exist in a vacuum.

 

[Minoosh]

He doesn't have inherit immunity. He has to actually exercise his power. He is the prosecutorial branch. The courts can't compel that branch to prosecute someone. In the Nixon case, the issue was a court order. There is no court order here.

If the Constitution is so dang clear why are there 5-4 splits or *any* splits?

 

[WilliamSeger]

Anyone the president chooses to grant blanket immunity to. They can't even be impeached. Whether it is himself or someone else, they get immunity for petty crimes. That is why that isn't a great argument against self pardon.

Yes it is, if abuse of pardon powers is itself a "high crime or misdemeanor," and self-pardoning would be pretty abusive.

Plus a president can be impeached for petty crime.

I thought that you were a stickler for what the Constitution says?