All 9/11 ideas welcomed here

[israelside]

When did I say I was talking about you specifically with my comments, israelside? I was quite serious, I don't find people who do those things (and there are a lot of them in the 9/11 "Truth" movement) credible, or worth listening to. I am incredibly biased against them, because I think they are idiots. To be fair, they do an excellent job of reinforcing the factual basis for this bias.

You asked me what my bias was. Just because you didn't appreciate, comprehend, like, or whatever my answer doesn't mean I wasn't being honest.

Nice subtle dig at me, though. Very good, almost as nice as the "professor" comment.

Your automatic distrust of governments (and humanity) is as naive and childish as one who would simply trust a government (or a person) without question. As much as I appreciate your incredible false dichotomy, I do not automatically assume people are great and believable.

Who said I sit and read news all day? You make a lot of assumptions for someone that claims to not form assumptions.

What a joke, I said my bias is untrusting towards the govt due to their history and corruption, I do however trust them at times like i said and believe in what they say....but we all have this bias and if you ignore that you are lieing to yourself! No one reserves judgment for people when you mee them, you automatically pigeon hole them in your mind...after a while you change your feelings about them b/c you know them more thats how I am, you are and every human is but that also means we have initial bias...that's what i'm saying about govt's and the people that run them but you make me out to be childish and naive even though I never said anything like that. You sit and read blogs quite a bit, maybe not news directly from cnn but if people post "news" or articles you read those right? And link to pages that prove people's theories? You people are funny...enough of wasteful time today.

 

[israelside]

You have wasted your time. You come with no facts or evidence to even support your bunch of liars comment. You are just some CT believer too afraid to tell anyone. You are a thermite guy, a Dr Jones follower. 6 years too late, no clue or story, just wasting time, is that it?

What is your idea on 9/11? Oh, I forgot, you have nothing. Good job

read my other posts, if you don't understand what I am saying maybe you need to question your critical thinking skills

 

[beachnut]

beachnut, I do say what I think, and my theories about 9/11...I am collecting more evidence but can't say 1 way or another...its pointless to keep writing in here with mindless people like youself, again, I do not have all the answers but beach since you do and have made up your mind, tell us why the ISI has no involvement in 911 and if they do, why not investigated?

Oh, you have the collected evidence, expose it for us. Please? I would like to know how many facts you have on the ISI stuff. Rip it out.

I expect your ISI information is as good as you thermite is. If you have something we would be seeing it on the news. Go ahead give us the collected evidence of the person who has already exposed JREF as a waste of time. I mean you could ask the paranormal guys to expose this 9/11 stuff, you know, you believe in all the paranormal stuff. Just expose it all now. Stop wasting time and show everyone how much you have. You failed on thermite, you may do better in your field of what ever. Are you a scientist or an engineer? So what great ISI stuff do you have?

You are not investigating, you think this is a waste of time. You still can not expose your secret ideas on 9/11 because you will never have them or are you just afraid to be open and honest about you ideas. Which is it? Which item is next on the all ideas welcome thread of nothing?

I welcome your ideas on the ISI, or terrorist pilots and why they can't fly, or why the building can't fall as fast as they did, or why planes can break steel, or how people with cut throats die fast, or how 19 terrorist were able to do it, etc. Which idea do you think is good?

There is the, how did the guys planting the bomb and unknown thermite devices and know where the planes were going to hit idea. Got any?

 

[beachnut]

read my other posts, if you don't understand what I am saying maybe you need to question your critical thinking skills

I did read you posts but you said you had no idea on what happen on 9/11. Did I mess up?

You even said, once maybe more, that people at JREFF are wasting their time. And I am pretty sure you said you had not ideas on what happen on 9/11. Are you changing you mind?

You missed it, I never claimed what you want me to question.

david griffin is a well respected investigator, i have to consider what he says.

You are right, I do not understand what you say, it does not make sense. Like DRG, he is not a respected investigator, his work is misleading and can be considered lies if he would make a stand. But I an waiting for you to take a stand, but the only thing you have said you stand behind is this -

you people waste more time than anyone i know

When will you share your ideas and evidence. You want to tell us about the ISI, what is it? What great stuff do you have on the ISI?

When will you have an idea what you think happen on 9/11? How long will it be? What is your biggest smoking gun?

 

[gumboot]

I ignore issues? I have replied more in here than anyone, and the issues I ignore is because I don't think its worth my time...I replied alot about wtc7 collapse, and replied a ton to gumboot...guess you forgot to see those posts...

You do reply a lot, but you completely ignore everything in the posts you reply to. That is why I have stopped replying to you. Continue any discussion with you is a complete waste of my very valuable time.

-Gumboot

 

[JonnyFive]

So Johnny you say its improbably that thermate was used in such great volume and that the plane didnt damage some...I don't see shipping thermate in and attaching it as that hard..do it at 2-4 am when no one's in, they could have used multiple levels of bombs near the plane impact zone, or even a few thermate devices just in case...why is that so hard for you to imagine? Sure it may have been expensive, but the war on terror is what around 4 or 5 billion now? Nothing compared to that...if the govt funded the bombs in the wtc. Look, I'm no physics professor or chemistry guru or a thermate expert but how hard can it be to make a device that would take a consierable amount longer to melt than steel when in contact to thermate? You angle it so the thermate touches the steel, set it off remotely, the steel burns faster than the device the thermate is in and wala the steel is weakend to fall.

You didn't read what I wrote about thermite, did you?

First of all, you don't just "attach" thermate to stuff. You need a device capable of directing the reaction sideways.

Second, the device mentioned to direct a thermite reaction is not something you simply stick on the girders. It is a fairly bulky, unwieldy device that would be difficult to employ in the manner you imagine. There is no evidence that the device has been manufactured in any great quatities.

Third, such a device must properly function. Especially if you assume your remote ignition theory, the device must not be damaged in any way. In addition to the impact of the plane, there is also the issue of the fires. If either destroyed such a device's circuitry or dislodged it, it would fail to work properly.

Fourth, we have not seen evidence that such a device can actually cut through a full girder. The demonstrations by the company that developed it shown it only cutting a piece of rebar.

Finally, there is not evidence of the reaction products of thermate that do not occur in common construction materials.

You're not really looking at the evidence for or against any of your theories. If you're just throwing this stuff out for discussion, you seem pretty hell-bent on defending the possibility of these theories against the incredible level of evidence against them.

Rant all you want about bias, you're not really engaging anyone in productive discussion.

 

[chipmunk stew]

nah no relation, just threw it in...but you mention that instead of replying with anthing of value.

We arrest or atleast detain "terrorist" suspects from around the world all the time...bush even said "we wont distinguish between terrorists and those who harbor them", so arresting ISI agents suspected in the biggest terrorist crime in the world would seem legit in that endeavor. We've blown up 2 nations chipmunk...changing people's worlds, arresting terrorists, looking for others, not finding bin laden , yet you say we cant go around arresting people of other nations, thats foolish. We've arrested every person in Iraq and Afghanistan in terms of their previous life...we police the world, always have, always will...police arrest people that do crimes against them or their citizens! And no, just because the ISI has more esteme or credibility or are even partners with us in this war on terror DOES NOT MEAN that are immune from investigation.

You're right. Let's invade Pakistan. That should do the trick.

This is silly.

 

[Belz...]

We know the DOD and the pentagon has multiple camera angles of the attack on the pentagon, yet the public has only seen 5 frames and 2 junk camera shot from the gas station and the hotel (which shows nothing)...why hasn't the media shown us any of these other tapes?

How do "we know" that they have more camera angles, if we've never seen others ?

The bottom line is no one can conclusively say with 100% confidence that no foreign agencies, (isi) or other agencies like the cia that would benefit, did not play a part in helping the terrorists carry out 911!

We cannot also say conclusively with 100% confidence that you are not an alien bent on conquering Earth. But then why would we care to disprove something that has no basis in reality ? That's why we have this little thing called burden of proof.

 

[Belz...]

So Johnny you say its improbably that thermate was used in such great volume and that the plane didnt damage some...I don't see shipping thermate in and attaching it as that hard..do it at 2-4 am when no one's in

This is another glaring example of how truthers know nothing about anything. THERE WAS ALWAYS people in the WTC.

they could have used multiple levels of bombs near the plane impact zone

And how would these survive the impact without causing more damage, themselves or causing premature collapse ?

or even a few thermate devices just in case...why is that so hard for you to imagine?

Because the operation is impossible. Thermate couldn't possibly cut horizontally. Why is that so hard for you to understand ?

Sure it may have been expensive, but the war on terror is what around 4 or 5 billion now? Nothing compared to that...

Impossible > Expensive

Look, I'm no physics professor or chemistry guru or a thermate expert but how hard can it be to make a device that would take a consierable amount longer to melt than steel when in contact to thermate?

Because you've just made it up. It has to be able to cut horizontally. I'd need to know actual proof that such a device exists.

I'm just coming up with ideas, no real answers...

Indeed.

but since you all know everything about 911 and thermate, by all means you should know this and thought about these things way before i just did...so why not post that? Probably because you are a bunch of liars that really know nothing!

When someone refuses to answer to nonsense, it doesn't mean that the nonsense is real.

 

[israelside]

repeat

 

[israelside]

I asked a serious question Belzabub and Johnny, all you do is critisize me...of course nothing i say could be good nor do any of my legit questions deserve response, why can't you admit you just don't know or whatnot? You people have so much pride, atleast I have said where I am wrong and how my beliefs can change. Again, what substance melts much slower than steel? If you don't know just say it, stop trying to belittle my point just because you don't like me. You people come in this safe forum with no one else to challenge your argument except for someone with little experience in these fields and go home proud that you accomplished a great day of defeating falsehoods...just a bunch of overblown egos we are stroking here arn't we?

 

[israelside]

How do "we know" that they have more camera angles, if we've never seen others ?



We cannot also say conclusively with 100% confidence that you are not an alien bent on conquering Earth. But then why would we care to disprove something that has no basis in reality ? That's why we have this little thing called burden of proof.

I have heard there atleast 4 from some friends I know in the DOD (who was there on 911 and said a plane did hi) and state dept. My statements have a basis in reality you joker...proving a negative is nearly impossible unless you have 100% evidence, say camera angles but even then the camera may have stalled for 1 minute...none the less i guess sense we can't prove thermate was in the building we can't say it was in there. I still think wtc7 fell straight down haha.

 

[israelside]

Oh, you have the collected evidence, expose it for us. Please? I would like to know how many facts you have on the ISI stuff. Rip it out.

I expect your ISI information is as good as you thermite is. If you have something we would be seeing it on the news. Go ahead give us the collected evidence of the person who has already exposed JREF as a waste of time. I mean you could ask the paranormal guys to expose this 9/11 stuff, you know, you believe in all the paranormal stuff. Just expose it all now. Stop wasting time and show everyone how much you have. You failed on thermite, you may do better in your field of what ever. Are you a scientist or an engineer? So what great ISI stuff do you have?

You are not investigating, you think this is a waste of time. You still can not expose your secret ideas on 9/11 because you will never have them or are you just afraid to be open and honest about you ideas. Which is it? Which item is next on the all ideas welcome thread of nothing?

I welcome your ideas on the ISI, or terrorist pilots and why they can't fly, or why the building can't fall as fast as they did, or why planes can break steel, or how people with cut throats die fast, or how 19 terrorist were able to do it, etc. Which idea do you think is good?

There is the, how did the guys planting the bomb and unknown thermite devices and know where the planes were going to hit idea. Got any?

ISI stuff: gen mahmud wired 100K to saeid who gave it to atta.
also abbas (known isi agent) knew the towers were going to come down.
saeid has known connections with the ISI.
the ISI and Al Qaueda have a pretty long history of drug smuggling and weapons deals not to mention covering for terrorist suspects.
I'm not saying the ISI is the solution to all the problems of 911 or where to find all the terrorists, they are just 1 small piece of the giant puzzle. Have you read the complete 911 timeline at all?

Most everything about 911 I have posted somewhere in this thread, go read those and respond.

 

[beachnut]

ISI stuff: gen mahmud wired 100K to saeid who gave it to atta.

Sources and proof? What does it mean?

No thermate. Dr Jones started with simple thermite in his first paper. He does no have a clue.

 

[JonnyFive]

I asked a serious question Belzabub and Johnny, all you do is critisize me...of course nothing i say could be good nor do any of my legit questions deserve response, why can't you admit you just don't know or whatnot? You people have so much pride, atleast I have said where I am wrong and how my beliefs can change. Again, what substance melts much slower than steel? If you don't know just say it, stop trying to belittle my point just because you don't like me. You people come in this safe forum with no one else to challenge your argument except for someone with little experience in these fields and go home proud that you accomplished a great day of defeating falsehoods...just a bunch of overblown egos we are stroking here arn't we?

If your question was "is there a serious case for thermate being used in the collapse of the twin towers?" then the answer is "no." There are serious problems with that hypothesis that have been outlined several times. You aren't the first person to come around touting the thermate theory, and it just doesn't work due to the technical problems that would need to be overcome.

If you want to start dragging in "what if" devices that we have no evidence for the existence of, then you might as well argue for space beams, holographic cruise missiles, or Godzilla.

Why do you keep asking what substance melts slower than steel, anyway? Anything with a higher melting point would, by definition, melt slower. The current understanding of the collapse is not that the steel was melted, simply that it was weakened.

 

[israelside]

Sources and proof? What does it mean?

No thermate. Dr Jones started with simple thermite in his first paper. He does no have a clue.

its under the ISI section http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

 

[israelside]

If your question was "is there a serious case for thermate being used in the collapse of the twin towers?" then the answer is "no." There are serious problems with that hypothesis that have been outlined several times. You aren't the first person to come around touting the thermate theory, and it just doesn't work due to the technical problems that would need to be overcome.

If you want to start dragging in "what if" devices that we have no evidence for the existence of, then you might as well argue for space beams, holographic cruise missiles, or Godzilla.

Why do you keep asking what substance melts slower than steel, anyway? Anything with a higher melting point would, by definition, melt slower. The current understanding of the collapse is not that the steel was melted, simply that it was weakened.

Those other ideas are outrageous, a device to secure thermate to a beam (which now exisists by the way) could have been used in a priliminary trial on the wtc...that's not proof but it's not so outrageous to think like you want us to believe. No you are ignoring the question...I asked WHAT SUBSTANCE DOES MELT SLOWER you have no idea right? Why can't you just say that Jonny? If a substance melts slower than steel then u can wrap the thermate in that substance in order to weaken the column, do i have to keep repeating this? These are not just wild fantasies i am talking about, but legit things that could have happend and you know it!! Now answer it or say you don't know.

Edited to remove incivility; remember, this sub-forum is currently under a stricter interpretation of the membership agreement. Do not indulge yourself in ad hom's in the future - attack the argument only.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jmercer

 

[JonnyFive]

Those other ideas are outrageous, a device to secure thermate to a beam (which now exisists by the way) could have been used in a priliminary trial on the wtc...that's not proof but it's not so outrageous to think like you want us to believe. No you are ignoring the question...I asked WHAT SUBSTANCE DOES MELT SLOWER you have no idea right? Why can't you just say that Jonny? If a substance melts slower than steel then u can wrap the thermate in that substance in order to weaken the column, do i have to keep repeating this before you get it threw your thick skull? These are not just wild fantasies i am talking about, but legit things that could have happend and you know it!! Now answer it or say you don't know.

Yes, I know about the devices. However, they don't "secure thermate" to anything. They serve to direct the reaction sideways. They are large, bulky devices similar to firepots (for lack of a better comparison). They have been demonstrated to melt light rebar only. No one supporting these theories has obtained so much as a shred of evidence that such a device can damage a thick supporting column or survive the impact of a plane.

I just told you what melts slower than steel: All materials with a higher melting point. Your continued assertion that I "have no idea" makes it no more true. If you want an exhaustive enumeration of all the compounds, alloys, and elements that have a higher melting point than steel, you're not getting it.

First of all, which alloy of steel are you talking about? The WTC steel specifically? Got a figure for the melting point of that particular alloy?

Let's say, for example, it melts at 2500 degrees F (in the real world, the number is going to be different). That would put the following materials in the "melts slower" category, among others:

-Titanium (3034 F)
-Diamond (6420 F)
-Carbon (7280 F)

So you believe that the columns were wrapped in a kind of "cup" of, say, carbon that had a thermate reaction in it, which would then melt the steel?

Except that the steel would be melted at the base of the surrounding material, allowing the thermate reaction to progress downward, and not melt the rest of the steel column. Oddly enough, absolutely no evidence has been found for this mechanism, which would undoubtedly leave obvious traces and a rather unique pattern to the columns affected by it.

I'm quite capable of following your arguments. Because I disagree with them does not make me stupid, contrary to your ad hominem posing. Please be more civil.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

So you believe that the columns were wrapped in a kind of "cup" of, say, carbon that had a thermate reaction in it, which would then melt the steel?

Except that the steel would be melted at the base of the surrounding material, allowing the thermate reaction to progress downward, and not melt the rest of the steel column. Oddly enough, absolutely no evidence has been found for this mechanism, which would undoubtedly leave obvious traces and a rather unique pattern to the columns affected by it.

QFE. In order for a device to cut horizontally through a steel beam it must use pressure to force the thermite along a horizontal path.

 

[israelside]

ok jonny I see what you mean now that it couldn't burn all the way through the column. Well bombs are a much more likely device then...don't see how wtc7 fell so quick without some sort of device to pull it down.