All 9/11 ideas welcomed here

And (please correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't the US Gov. contract MIT for certain projects? I would think that would exclude King from the group of "...people that have a great deal of experience but arn't associated with the gov't in any way..."
Although Jeff King's connections to MIT are so long ago and so insignificant that I can't imagine that disqualifying him. However, if he is a licensed physician (which I'm not convinced of), the government is the licensing body, right? So he's out.
 
People that have a great deal of experience but arn't associated with the gov't in any way...

So we've got to find people that have somehow managed to amass "a great deal of experience" in structural engineering without ever working on a public building, or one that was used for any government department - that immediately eliminates everyone involved in design and construction of the WTC complex, or any of the major demolition firms brought in for the cleanup. We can eliminate all university professors - including Steven Jones - because universities get government money. We've pretty well eliminated any possible source of experience by now - but hey, what about people who are associated with the government in that they're governed by it? I think we can probably rule you out too.

Dave
 
I'v seen it burn and now know its afterproducts and how quickly and hot it burns things...how much more do you know professor Jonny? :)

Very patronizing, yes, but this is the kind of thing that a couple of university level chemistry courses could easily clear up without needing to be a professor in the subject.

If you've actually seen it burn, then you can probably guess a few of the limitations of the reaction.

As the iron oxide reacts with the aluminum in the thermite reaction, the rapid oxidization produces the by-products (primarily free iron and aluminum oxide) as well as a large amount of heat. Note that this is an oxidization reaction, not an explosion. Thus, the reagents react rapidly, but are in no way propelled against the force of gravity. Observing a thermite reaction clearly shows that it melts whatever it is intended to melt in the direction gravity pulls it.

Thermate, a commonly used military variant of the reaction, simply adds in some incendiary elements to increase reaction temperature and decrease ignition temperature. While this makes thermate more effect for incendiary purposes, it still doesn't make thermite "explode" and thus the reaction progresses in the same basic fashion.

The value of thermite (for purposes of clarity, I will continue to say "thermite"... "thermate" is similar enough that the distinction is unimportant) is solely in the heat released by the reaction. As you may recall from college-level chemistry, explosives work by reacting so radiply that they release energy in a shock wave that damages not only through heat but through the rapid expansion of gases. Gravity is not a major factor in explosive reactions, because the rapid expansion provides a force to act against gravity.

The thermite reaction, on the other hand, does not exhibit the rapid release of gas shown in an explosive reaction. It instead, as I mentioned above, exhibits a rapid release of heat, doing its damage through melting and burning.

Which brings us back to the subject of thermite as used for demolitions. Simply put, this is impractical to the point of being nonsense. The problem of gravity's influence over the thermite reaction makes directing the reaction to the side difficult. This is not impossible, as we were able to discover the patent for a device that directs the reaction to the side by providing the reaction with one possible outlet.

However, this device is bulky, and to use it to "weaken the columns" of the WTC would require two highly improbable/potentially impossible conditions:

1) A large number of these devices attached to the columns.
2) That the aforementioned devices were not damaged or dislodged by the plane or resulting fires.

The second condition in particular makes it pretty much impossible that, even given the device to direct a thermite reaction, any such devices were used on the columns that ultimately failed.

You can't simply stick a chunk of thermite to something and let it go.

Finally, the aluminum oxide and free iron products of the reaction are common in other instances. The presence of aluminum, iron, and steel would lead one to believe that some of these compounds would be found in the wreckage of the towers (or dust from them), especially after experiencing a catastrophic fire. Moreover, the more exotic by-products of a thermate reaction have not been found; that is where the barium nitrate everyone keeps mentioning comes into play.

This is a ridiculous avenue of inquiry. You might as well argue that giant, metal-eating beavers gnawed the columns down and then disappeared.
 
Arrest the ISI members? You mean, say, have the CIA secretly abduct them and carry them off to a secret prison?

Pakistan is far from a "major" ally. Pakistan's commitment to the War on Terror is lukewarm at best. Unfortunately for all concerned, we need Pakistan as a major player or we have no chance at all of stopped El Terroristo.

Abducting Pakistani government agents is probably not the best way to keep them on side.

-Gumboot

So you're saying, forego any attempts at arresting possible suspects in 911 (from the ISI) simple because we need greater Pakistani cooperation in the war on terror? You have even said the ISI and Al Queda have had a close relationship for a long time...I am not confident anyone in the ISI has really been investigated a great deal in terms of their ties to 911...but I guess not much else can be done about it. 4 tapes of the plane hitting the pentagon are being held by the DOD, anyone wana pay the money to get the tapes and let us all see it by filling out a FOIA request?
 
We know the DOD and the pentagon has multiple camera angles of the attack on the pentagon, yet the public has only seen 5 frames and 2 junk camera shot from the gas station and the hotel (which shows nothing)...why hasn't the media shown us any of these other tapes? According to you guy, it could never NEVER be because they are hiding the truth...but because they "letting us grieve" and will show it in time? No excuse not to release these tapes...they show nothing more than what we have seen before (except for the plane and at another angle).
 
So you're saying, forego any attempts at arresting possible suspects in 911 (from the ISI) simple because we need greater Pakistani cooperation in the war on terror? You have even said the ISI and Al Queda have had a close relationship for a long time...I am not confident anyone in the ISI has really been investigated a great deal in terms of their ties to 911...but I guess not much else can be done about it.
Does the next sentence have some relation to the previous 3?
4 tapes of the plane hitting the pentagon are being held by the DOD, anyone wana pay the money to get the tapes and let us all see it by filling out a FOIA request?

How would you suggest we go about arresting ISI members and investigating their connections with Al Qaeda? The US can't just go around arresting people of other nations.
 
We know the DOD and the pentagon has multiple camera angles of the attack on the pentagon, yet the public has only seen 5 frames and 2 junk camera shot from the gas station and the hotel (which shows nothing)...why hasn't the media shown us any of these other tapes? According to you guy, it could never NEVER be because they are hiding the truth...but because they "letting us grieve" and will show it in time? No excuse not to release these tapes...they show nothing more than what we have seen before (except for the plane and at another angle).

1) What do you think happened?
2) Do you have any proof of it?
3) What exactly do you want the government to do?
 
Does the next sentence have some relation to the previous 3?


How would you suggest we go about arresting ISI members and investigating their connections with Al Qaeda? The US can't just go around arresting people of other nations.

nah no relation, just threw it in...but you mention that instead of replying with anthing of value.

We arrest or atleast detain "terrorist" suspects from around the world all the time...bush even said "we wont distinguish between terrorists and those who harbor them", so arresting ISI agents suspected in the biggest terrorist crime in the world would seem legit in that endeavor. We've blown up 2 nations chipmunk...changing people's worlds, arresting terrorists, looking for others, not finding bin laden :), yet you say we cant go around arresting people of other nations, thats foolish. We've arrested every person in Iraq and Afghanistan in terms of their previous life...we police the world, always have, always will...police arrest people that do crimes against them or their citizens! And no, just because the ISI has more esteme or credibility or are even partners with us in this war on terror DOES NOT MEAN that are immune from investigation.
 
1) What do you think happened?
2) Do you have any proof of it?
3) What exactly do you want the government to do?

1. I think that a plane did hit, but I want proof.
2. No, I just want the tape to be release to the public in the media
3. govt shud do their job and let the public know of whats going on, no hidden agendas, or really no evil at all...but that will never happen SO that means we need more checks and balances do you agree with that??
 
hey Johnny tell us all where your bias is and what you have been wrong about concerning 9/11 or if nothing anthing with politics?
 
You think a plane hit but the existing evidence that a plane hit is insufficient? Uh... what?

What "checks and balances" would you suggest?

hey Johnny tell us all where your bias is and what you have been wrong about concerning 9/11 or if nothing anthing with politics?

About 9/11? Well, I was mistaken about some terms of Silverstein's insurance coverage, and promptly corrected my mistake when I learned more about his coverage.

I'll admit I'm somewhat biased against people that shoot their mouths off without knowing what they're talking about. I'm also quite biased against people that make broad, sweeping assertions about complicated issues they don't particularly understand under the guise of "just asking questions."

And I f-ing hate when people bring up issues, especially in the manner I just described, and then ignore all discussion on it while simply switching topics.

Your turn, israelside. You are, of course, planning to return to the thermate issue you raised earlier, right?
 
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You think a plane hit but the existing evidence that a plane hit is insufficient? Uh... what?

What "checks and balances" would you suggest?

About 9/11? Well, I was mistaken about some terms of Silverstein's insurance coverage, and promptly corrected my mistake when I learned more about his coverage.

I'll admit I'm somewhat biased against people that shoot their mouths off without knowing what they're talking about. I'm also quite biased against people that make broad, sweeping assertions about complicated issues they don't particularly understand under the guise of "just asking questions."

And I f-ing hate people that bring up issues, especially in the manner I just described, and then ignore all discussion on it while simply switching topics.

Your turn, israelside. You are, of course, planning to return to the thermate issue you raised earlier, right?

Glad to see the real you Johnny :) really thats not showing your bias, thats not answering the simple question i asked. I am researching 911, i do have ideas of what happend and by no means am stagnet in my beliefs...thats why i theorize but can still be proven wrong. Yet, since you know quite alot about 911 and are 100% correct about your "biased theories" then I have come to hear from people like you....yet you fail to give true answers to complicated questions...I am biased against established govts because i feel that they do indeed hold great power, and with power comes corruption...which makes them untrustable (for the most part, not all the time). I see most people as evil, yet you must see them as great and totally believable. The bottom line is no one can conclusively say with 100% confidence that no foreign agencies, (isi) or other agencies like the cia that would benefit, did not play a part in helping the terrorists carry out 911! I'm not switching topics, I will reply when i get the chance, I don't have all day to sit at the computer and read news like you, but I will read it when I can.
 
I ignore issues? I have replied more in here than anyone, and the issues I ignore is because I don't think its worth my time...I replied alot about wtc7 collapse, and replied a ton to gumboot...guess you forgot to see those posts...
 
It could have been possible they had the device to cut beams with thermite on 911, just was in infant stage...

Oh and stateofgrace, I think both bombs and thermate could have been used, why is that out of the question? Can't prove thermate, but bombs look likely. Thermate weakens it, bombs clear the way...it could have been an easier way to do it. Granted all they really need was thermate but bombs could have been used b/c it would have been too expensive to place so much thermate everywhere...think about that? Seems plausible...I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS 100% FACT. Just theorizing...you people are so dogmatic.
 
Glad to see the real you Johnny :) really thats not showing your bias, thats not answering the simple question i asked. I am researching 911, i do have ideas of what happend and by no means am stagnet in my beliefs...thats why i theorize but can still be proven wrong. Yet, since you know quite alot about 911 and are 100% correct about your "biased theories" then I have come to hear from people like you....yet you fail to give true answers to complicated questions...I am biased against established govts because i feel that they do indeed hold great power, and with power comes corruption...which makes them untrustable (for the most part, not all the time). I see most people as evil, yet you must see them as great and totally believable. The bottom line is no one can conclusively say with 100% confidence that no foreign agencies, (isi) or other agencies like the cia that would benefit, did not play a part in helping the terrorists carry out 911! I'm not switching topics, I will reply when i get the chance, I don't have all day to sit at the computer and read news like you, but I will read it when I can.
You have not said much of anything.

but it is entirely plausible for the building to have been a CD

No, it is not. You said that, but you were wrong. You make statements that are wrong. You bring zero support then get upset when people know more about everything that you do.

If you can not come up with any ideas and support of what happen on 9/11, then why are you wasting your time? You can not even state what you believe. You are hiding behind statements like this:
but it is entirely plausible for the building to have been a CD

Why not just come out and say what you think happen on 9/11 and stop hiding behind a foggy facade of nothing.

We have paid our dues, fess up and come on out. Say what you think. Stop getting faking the upset routine and either ask for help or tell us why 19 terrorist did or did not do 9/11. Come on you are here to show everyone how it goes down. Do it. Say it, stop acting like the pdoh guy and make a stand. Go ahead and make everyone's day, expose a smoking gun. But please stop the thermite crap, Dr Jones is an old washed up professor who can not understand momentum, and you seem to be hung up on his delusional never used as CD, thermite lie. What new item do you have and why are you afraid to post what you think?
 
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Glad to see the real you Johnny :) really thats not showing your bias, thats not answering the simple question i asked. I am researching 911, i do have ideas of what happend and by no means am stagnet in my beliefs...thats why i theorize but can still be proven wrong. Yet, since you know quite alot about 911 and are 100% correct about your "biased theories" then I have come to hear from people like you....yet you fail to give true answers to complicated questions...I am biased against established govts because i feel that they do indeed hold great power, and with power comes corruption...which makes them untrustable (for the most part, not all the time). I see most people as evil, yet you must see them as great and totally believable. The bottom line is no one can conclusively say with 100% confidence that no foreign agencies, (isi) or other agencies like the cia that would benefit, did not play a part in helping the terrorists carry out 911! I'm not switching topics, I will reply when i get the chance, I don't have all day to sit at the computer and read news like you, but I will read it when I can.

When did I say I was talking about you specifically with my comments, israelside? I was quite serious, I don't find people who do those things (and there are a lot of them in the 9/11 "Truth" movement) credible, or worth listening to. I am incredibly biased against them, because I think they are idiots. To be fair, they do an excellent job of reinforcing the factual basis for this bias.

You asked me what my bias was. Just because you didn't appreciate, comprehend, like, or whatever my answer doesn't mean I wasn't being honest.

Nice subtle dig at me, though. Very good, almost as nice as the "professor" comment.

Your automatic distrust of governments (and humanity) is as naive and childish as one who would simply trust a government (or a person) without question. As much as I appreciate your incredible false dichotomy, I do not automatically assume people are great and believable.

Who said I sit and read news all day? You make a lot of assumptions for someone that claims to not form assumptions.
 
Wonder if he's ever list all those "organizations" that disagree with the various reports. Or have they gone the same way as his MIT engineering professor? Ah well, either way he makes for quite humourous reading.
 
So Johnny you say its improbably that thermate was used in such great volume and that the plane didnt damage some...I don't see shipping thermate in and attaching it as that hard..do it at 2-4 am when no one's in, they could have used multiple levels of bombs near the plane impact zone, or even a few thermate devices just in case...why is that so hard for you to imagine? Sure it may have been expensive, but the war on terror is what around 4 or 5 billion now? Nothing compared to that...if the govt funded the bombs in the wtc. Look, I'm no physics professor or chemistry guru or a thermate expert but how hard can it be to make a device that would take a consierable amount longer to melt than steel when in contact to thermate? You angle it so the thermate touches the steel, set it off remotely, the steel burns faster than the device the thermate is in and wala the steel is weakend to fall. Ok experts.....tell me this, and be EXACT What substance takes longer to weaken than steel and how much longer when in contact with thermate? I'm just coming up with ideas, no real answers...but since you all know everything about 911 and thermate, by all means you should know this and thought about these things way before i just did...so why not post that? Probably because you are a bunch of liars that really know nothing!
 
beachnut, I do say what I think, and my theories about 9/11...I am collecting more evidence but can't say 1 way or another...its pointless to keep writing in here with mindless people like youself, again, I do not have all the answers but beach since you do and have made up your mind, tell us why the ISI has no involvement in 911 and if they do, why not investigated?
 
So Johnny you say its improbably that thermate was used in such great volume and that the plane didnt damage some...I don't see shipping thermate in and attaching it as that hard..do it at 2-4 am when no one's in, they could have used multiple levels of bombs near the plane impact zone, or even a few thermate devices just in case...why is that so hard for you to imagine? Sure it may have been expensive, but the war on terror is what around 4 or 5 billion now? Nothing compared to that...if the govt funded the bombs in the wtc. Look, I'm no physics professor or chemistry guru or a thermate expert but how hard can it be to make a device that would take a consierable amount longer to melt than steel when in contact to thermate? You angle it so the thermate touches the steel, set it off remotely, the steel burns faster than the device the thermate is in and wala the steel is weakend to fall. Ok experts.....tell me this, and be EXACT What substance takes longer to weaken than steel and how much longer when in contact with thermate? I'm just coming up with ideas, no real answers...but since you all know everything about 911 and thermate, by all means you should know this and thought about these things way before i just did...so why not post that? Probably because you are a bunch of liars that really know nothing!
You have wasted your time. You come with no facts or evidence to even support your bunch of liars comment. You are just some CT believer too afraid to tell anyone. You are a thermite guy, a Dr Jones follower. 6 years too late, no clue or story, just wasting time, is that it?

What is your idea on 9/11? Oh, I forgot, you have nothing. Good job
 

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