Merged Alien Big Cats in the UK?

Strength of a Leopard ends when it is dealing with a 450 lb Silverback. The only way that they can kill large non-human primates is through sneak attacks.


Mak, they attack everything with stealth. It's how leopards hunt. It's always a surprise and they hit with great speed and force. They are extremely skilled at instantly getting their terribly long canine teeth DEEP into the throat, even when coming from behind. Leopards do not normally target large gorillas. They will certainly take smaller individuals.
 
By the way, you missed a couple.

Charlotte the sheep.

That horse near Ayr last week.

People do love to get excited about these incidents. However, just like the escaped cats, they're sporadic one-off reports from all over the place.

I recently met the pathologist who was said to have identified Ramsay's sheep predator as a big cat, and dammit I forgot to ask him! But the accounts of that sounded more like journalists making a great deal of someone who didn't say "no, that's just ridiculous" when the idea was put to him. Hertfordshire. And nobody has seen it. And it's killed one lamb in over a year.

As I said before, there is zero possibility that a puma is living in the farmlands within five miles of the Ayr veterinary investigation centre, and the only evidence of its existence is lesions on a horse.

People really do underestimate the damage a big dog can cause. And dogs are not usually expert hunters. They don't have the practice and they often lack the instinct. They can do anything from expertly ripping out a ewe's throat to running around grabbing randomly at lambs' rumps.

When you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras - or unicorns. When you see occasional, sporadic sheep-worrying, think Rottweiler, not lynx - or lion.

Rolfe.
 
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See I don't know what planet you are on but I have told you several times that I am gathering information from a government source using the freedom of information act. This may take some time. Til then youre just wasting your time talking crap about evidence I have stated several times is not good enough. I mean, what do I have to do here, write it in triplicate and hand it in to your supervisor at the funny farm ?


And who and where do you think the government source is going to get its information from?

I already showed you the VIDA reports. The evidence of any big cat living in Britain would be in there, as statistics on the numbers of livestock dead in the appropriate category. By which I mean, the animals (mainly sheep and lambs) it would have had to kill to eat.

Ask DEFRA for a breakdown of these statistics and see what you find. How many sheep would a puma need in a week anyway? How many would a breeding population need? How many could it possibly sneak away before some of them got into these statistics?

youre saying the same thing as I am but heres the difference
I am looking for better evidence, you have made your mind upon weak evidence and further to that your first post stated quite clearly that you didn't believe it because you'd never come across any big cat kills yourself
thats hardly credible, or correct is it, now you gonna give me some time to get some replies on this or do you want to talk more irrelevance to fill in the gaps
:D

I mean for crying out loud, what does homeopathy have to do with this subject ?


I'm saying the same thing as you are? Really?

the government does admit that there are big cats loose in the UK


theyre out there, any way you want to look at it and its not like theyre attacking children
[link to allegation of an attack on a child attached]


by claiming that there are no big cats in the wild in the UK you have shown a shocking ignorance of the facts

for shame


I expect you'd claim he saw it on a tv show and then faked the injuries, and then went on to convince his parents, friends and the local constabulary that he had really been attacked. I expect he hasa future as a oscar winning actor, wake up, he was 11, not 30


Gimme a break.

Rolfe.
 
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Defra were recently caught covering up and playing down the evidence, they were forced to release information under the freedom of information act which showed they have examined plenty of animal remains over the years some of which showed clear evidence of a big cat attack and in every case they claimed "predator unknown" based on the fact that they didn't actually have the corpse of the animal responsible.


Look, you never answered me before. I want to know the source for that startling statement.

For someone who's just starting to look at the evidence you do seem to have some pretty firm pre-conceptions, and to have swallowed some pretty dubious-looking claims.

So tell us. What is the source for that one. Where is this evidence that DEFRA were "forced" to release? How did they hide it within the VIDA data?

And why should any predator attack be classed as anything other than "predator unknown" if nobody saw the attack? What makes you claim that these cases show "clear evidence of a big cat attack" rather than being dogs? Did you see the bodies? Who did then? Who made that judgement?

Come on, you can't just make statements like that with no intention of even showing where you got them from!

Rolfe.
 
And who and where do you think the government source is going to get its information from?
Parcher specifically asked for the report made by the two forest rangers who twice spotted a pair of big cats over a three year period, they work for the forestry comission, you don't think they reported it, then where did the media release come from and why do the police have an emergency contact number for those two animals or is it just that you don't recognise the forestry comission as a government organisation ?

I already showed you the VIDA reports. The evidence of any big cat living in Britain would be in there, as statistics on the numbers of livestock dead in the appropriate category. By which I mean, the animals (mainly sheep and lambs) it would have had to kill to eat.
Are you forgetting that the forestry comission said nothing about it in 2002 and 2005 and only released the information when it was requested under the freedom of information act, seriously, have you read any of the previous posts ?
:catfight:
]
Ask DEFRA for a breakdown of these statistics and see what you find. How many sheep would a puma need in a week anyway? How many would a breeding population need? How many could it possibly sneak away before some of them got into these statistics?
There are no feral sheep deep in the new forest
http://www.newforestnpa.gov.uk/sheep
:hb:





I'm saying the same thing as you are? Really?
I was talking about the quality of the evidence, heres what happened
1. I said the evidence wasn't very good
2. you said the evidence wasn't very good
3. I said I would dig up some better evidence from the foresty comission
4. you started banging on and on and on and on and on about the evidence not being very good and attempting to make it look like I had said the opposite












Gimme a break.

Rolfe.
I reckon you need one
:D
 
your opinion isn't credible and your above statement is nonsense
Epic Fail,
read previous posts then I won't have to ignore yours
:p


Oh yes. I posted a post at 10.47, that I'd been working on for two hours. Work you should maybe have done for yourself before you posted a link to that lame DEFRA list to support your case.

You posted that at 10.49. You couldn't have read a quarter of it.

Read the assistance one professional is giving you before you run around bothering other people.

Rolfe.
 
Parcher specifically asked for the report made by the two forest rangers who twice spotted a pair of big cats over a three year period, they work for the forestry comission, you don't think they reported it, then where did the media release come from and why do the police have an emergency contact number for those two animals or is it just that you don't recognise the forestry comission as a government organisation ?


Have fun. If you can't recognise a fluff piece of journalism mainly provided by that Danny nutter, then too bad.

Are you forgetting that the forestry comission said nothing about it in 2002 and 2005 and only released the information when it was requested under the freedom of information act, seriously, have you read any of the previous posts ?


Maybe because the whole thing is a non-event blown up by Danny and fed to local reporters with a bit of space to fill?

There are no feral sheep deep in the new forest
http://www.newforestnpa.gov.uk/sheep



:hb:

Who said anything about the New Forest? Or feral sheep? The story you've been banging on about happened in the Forest of Dean. You know, the place I already told you was completely cleared of all ungulates in 2001 because of foot and mouth. Mainly deer and wild boar. They shot the lot, although it has since been re-stocked.

How did the pumas escape notice and then manage to survive while all that was happening?

And my question about "sheep" was general. How many sheep-sized prey animals per week does a puma need to live? A breeding family of pumas? Where is the evidence anywhere in Britain (possibly outside that Bodmin story, don't know enough about that) of livestock losses at the scale that would be inevitable if such animals were there?

I was talking about the quality of the evidence, heres what happened
1. I said the evidence wasn't very good
2. you said the evidence wasn't very good
3. I said I would dig up some better evidence from the foresty comission
4. you started banging on and on and on and on and on about the evidence not being very good and attempting to make it look like I had said the opposite


No, you came here flaunting "evidence" you seemed pretty pleased with. It began to look a bit less shiny after a little while, and you began making back-tracking noises. Your evidence got less and less shiny the more it was examined.

Maybe you go away and come back if you ever find anything that stands up to any reasonable scrutiny? Right now, you've shown nothing at all but some cut-and-paste from a bunch of crank web sites.

Have fun making a nuisance of yourself.

Rolfe.
 
Cougar Network is an excellent source for no-nonsense coverage of cougars in "the east". Young male mountain lion asks: where are the MILFs?
That cracks me up.

I like that they specify their levels of confirmation: Level 1: mostly cadavers believed to be wild; Level 2: other physical evidence (like tracks IDd by an expert).

We now have DNA profiles of the various population areas and can talk smart when addressing the question "Where did this cougar come from?"
Is that info on the cougarnet site? I'd love to see where the cats found nearest to me came from.

ETA: Just surfing the site, about the only thing I see is that they've used DNA profiles to determine whether a cat is from a North American population. I haven't seen anything more specific than that.
 
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Oh yes. I posted a post at 10.47, that I'd been working on for two hours. Work you should maybe have done for yourself before you posted a link to that lame DEFRA list to support your case.

You posted that at 10.49. You couldn't have read a quarter of it.

Read the assistance one professional is giving you before you run around bothering other people.

Rolfe.

you wasted two hours on a post that was meaningless then, I had already stated quite clearly that I was contacting the forestry comission at 10:31 and asked you to hold of until I had an answer, since then you've been telling me over and over that the evidence presented so far isn't good enough, I was telling you that I knew it wasn't good enough, thats why I was mailing the forestry commission. Like I have said several times, if you don't bother to read previous statements about following up evidence then whats the point in you posting anything

youre like a stuck record over and over and over saying the same thing, I heard what you had to say the first time buddy and I acknowledged it, thats why I agreed with you and stated that I was going for the source at Parchers request. Are you even slightly interested in what a government organisation which no one has investigated yet has to say on the matter or are you convinced that you are the font of all knowledge

you clearly have lost the plot, you've been slagging off people you don't know, calling people liars and making spurious claims on my character, your house is dirty, go clean it
:hb: :hb: :hb:

last time in big bold letters at the end of the post just so you can't miss it
I AM CONTACTING THE FORESTRY COMMISSION TO SEE IF THE NEWS REPORT HAS ANY SUBSTANCE, WILL YOU WAIT FOR AN ANSWER OR WOULD YOU PREFER TO CARRY ON WASTING YOUR OWN AND EVERYONE ELSE'S TIME ?

If I was religious I would be worried about taking the lords name in vain at this point
:rolleyes:
 
Is that info on the cougarnet site? I'd love to see where the cats found nearest to me came from.

ETA: Just surfing the site, about the only thing I see is that they've used DNA profiles to determine whether a cat is from a North American population. I haven't seen anything more specific than that.


I'm trying to track down info on the applied science behind this. There could be something on Cougar Network, but I can't search the site.

I found this news article but the link is dead...

DNA tests link cougar shot in Chicago to Wisconsin, South Dakota

Animal did not have rabies, necropsy shows

A Chicago police captain said the cougar turned on officers when they attempted to contain it, forcing them to shoot it. (Tribune photo by Candice C. Cusic / April 14, 2008)

By Jeremy Manier | Tribune reporter
3:27 PM CDT, April 30, 2008

DNA test results show that the cougar police shot April 16 on the North Side of Chicago was the same animal that left blood drops in southern Wisconsin in January, Cook County animal control officials said Wednesday.

The cougar's genes link it to a population from the Black Hills of South Dakota, according to Wisconsin wildlife officials. The animal's long journey apparently took it through North Chicago and Wilmette, where people reported seeing a cougar after the animal left Wisconsin but before it arrived in the big city.

"These findings provide a glimpse into the life of this wild cougar and are critical pieces of a larger puzzle, which for us and other agencies is: where it came from, and how and why it reached an urban area," Dr. Donna Alexander, administrator of the Cook County Department of Animal Control, said in a statement. "Additional testing still being performed will further delineate his genealogy and paint a better picture of his life."
 
This is interesting...

Leopard Panthera pardus 01/06/1988 21/06/1988 21/06/1988 Shot Unknown Kent

(Evidence now exists to suggest that this is not a credible sighting)

Not a credible sighting? Was it not shot dead? Was a body examined? If the shot cat wasn't a leopard after all, why is it listed as a leopard? Please don't tell me we may have reports of shot cats that were never recovered.
 
Is this the same incident here?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-chicago-cougar-shot-webapr15,0,98147.story

Too add a thought:

Maybe these "UK big cats" are just "domestic cats" infected with some unusual wild strain of CDV,
and morph into what we would call Pantherinae, or in this case a (large) diseased felid.
Unless these cats are resistant/elusive to "pathogens" also?
I guess these unverified vertebrates elude exposure to dogs, ticks, and the usual farm beasts.
The lion has a cooperative ambush... I guess these "Big UK Cats" may have a co-op elusive strategy.
Like some of our cool cryptoids over here in North America, they never end up on the table.
 
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Is this the same incident here?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-chicago-cougar-shot-webapr15,0,98147.story

Too add a thought:

Maybe these "UK big cats" are just "domestic cats" infected with some unusual wild strain of CDV,
and morph into what we would call Pantherinae, or in this case a (large) diseased felid.
Unless these cats are resistant/elusive to "pathogens" also?
I guess these unverified vertebrates elude exposure to dogs, ticks, and the usual farm beasts.
The lion has a cooperative ambush... I guess these "Big UK Cats" may have a co-op elusive strategy.
Like some of our cool cryptoids over here in North America, they never end up on the table.

So, in other words, These cats are simply freaks of nature?
 
To all participants: stop the bickering and personal attacks. Any further breaches will result in suspension.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
So, who's voting for the Scottish leopard and who expects an informed individual to end up right?

Nevermind, this has devolved into a bigfoot thread.
 
I guess a "shot Cougar" in Illinois doesn't = breeding population.
Are pushed out siblings/off-spring from South Dakota stock, meandering to Chicago? Time will tell if they set up camp in Illinois and other eastern regions.

Regarding the OP.
This cat? appears to be slightly taller than the rails, how tall are they? about 8 inches? One of my cats is 10 inches at the shoulders, as apposed to a Puma which can reach 30 inches. This has already be said so I will move along.
Blackcat-1.gif


CatonRails.jpg


To add: I wanted to add this link http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2008/11/20/manitoba-cougar.html?ref=rss
 
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Regarding the OP.
This cat? appears to be slightly taller than the rails, how tall are they? about 8 inches? One of my cats is 10 inches at the shoulders, as apposed to a Puma which can reach 30 inches.


I've looked at the video a number of times, and it's a real shame the resolution is so poor, and that the cat is walking away from the camera and so gets less and less clear.

At some points it seems to look a bit like a black Labrador, which is what the policeman who took the pictures thought it was at first. However, at other points it looks distinctly feline, especially the shape of the head and the length of the tail. There are also parts of the film where it doesn't look any bigger than an ordinary moggy.

There's a part of the film where I thought it actually walked along the rail. If this is the case, that's a very feline thing to do and a dog wouldn't do that. (A dog would also be likely to wag its tail while exploring like that, and this animal doesn't.) Also, if I was right about it walking along the rail, that would suggest it wasn't any bigger than a domestic cat. However, looking again at the film, I can't be sure it actually does that.

In spite of the railway line, there aren't good size reference points in the film, the policeman was a fair distance away, and the resolution is very poor. I think, just as the news item said at the time, that it's very inconclusive. It still could be a black Lab, but I think it's more likely just to be a big black mog, maybe somebody of 6 kg or more. Trying to magnify it into a puma seems a bit of a stretch though.

Although Helensburgh is on the edge of the Highlands and the Loch Lomond Park, it's very civilised. It's posh Glasgow commuter belt. That's what the railway line is. It shouldn't be all that hard for someone determined in the area to find out what lives there that might have taken a little stroll on the tracks.

And if it is a wild or feral animal, rather than somebody's pet, it should still be easy. That animal wasn't wary. It wasn't casing an unfamiliar joint. It was comfortable. If that was a free-living animal, it's probable it was in its home range, so it should be quite easy to find. I don't suppose anybody's looking though, because it was a bit of a nine-hour wonder.

Hybrid moggies with some non-domestic ancestry some generations back aren't impossible, but if they are around it's a bit odd nobody has ever produced any DNA evidence - for example as part of the project to get DNA typing of the remaining Felis sylvestris specimens in Scotland and see how much hypridisation of these with domestic cats has taken place. I think it's all mostly horse-feathers.

Rolfe.
 
Maybe these "UK big cats" are just "domestic cats" infected with some unusual wild strain of CDV, and morph into what we would call Pantherinae, or in this case a (large) diseased felid.


I really, really hope you're joking. Do you really imagine we don't know what strains of CDV are around? And the answer is very little to none, because widespread vaccination of puppies has pretty much wiped it out.

However, even in the days when CDV was rampant, it never infected cats. And we never had pet cats morphing into diseased werewolves before our very eyes.

This one hits a new high in the paranoid fantasy stakes.

Rolfe.
 
This is interesting...

Not a credible sighting? Was it not shot dead? Was a body examined? If the shot cat wasn't a leopard after all, why is it listed as a leopard? Please don't tell me we may have reports of shot cats that were never recovered.


William, I think it has to be seen in the context of Aspinall's zoo activities in the area. There were a number of escapes from there, into the Kent countryside, which as I'm sure you know is very intensively farmed and quit densely populated. It's "the garden of England". Local people were actually a bit paranoid about it all at the time, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone reported one of these "it's not as big as it looks" cat sightings, and it was at first attributed to Aspinall's activities, and some wires got crossed.

The other context is of course the absolutely dreadful quality of the DEFRA document. This is a million miles from the sort of data usually produced by that department. I linked earlier to the VIDA statistics. These are meticulously maintained and checked, and every so often I get someone on my doorstep asking me about a VIDA code assignment on something I've done, pointing out an irregularity, and asking me to clarify. That's how the work is routinely done.

In contrast that table isn't even dated. We don't know when "the present day" relates to. It's full of errors that can easily be identified simply on a cursory inspection. That's why I believe it was something hastily cobbled together for a specific purpose, some time in 2001 or soon after, and never looked at again. The heading suggests the specific purpose to me. It looks like an FoI request. It looks like something sketchily assembled simply to comply with that request.

I'm guessing where the source material came from, but I've a shrewd suspicion that someone was able to source a handful of press clippings about big cats discovered in the countryside, and just sat down and banged in what was there, guessing approximate dates. It must have been done very hurriedly, because it didn't take me long at all to spot the duplications, and the "date of capture" of 1950 is also a glaring typo.

So all that note against the Kent leopard story suggests to me is that the minion doing this had a garbled press report relating to something Aspinall may or may not have been responsible for, and just typed in a little caveat note without making any further enquiries. I don't imagine the writer spent more than half an hour on the whole thing.

Which is why I think Marduk might be disappointed with the result of his FoI enquiry. Such enquiries are usually made by people who think the government department has a specific document or set of records. If they're right, then hopefully the document will be released. But if nobody really knows what they're talking about, or the information simply doesn't exist in the form in which it is requested, then this is the sort of amateur abortion likely to be handed over.

That table may have been of use to someone. I suspect it's actually pretty complete. Once you've realised that the Norfolk incident in the table is probably the same one as the Suffolk incident Marduk listed, the only one of his six that's missing is the one in Northern Ireland, which might not have been covered by the original data-trawl. Once you've looked at what's there, there are about 11 reports that aren't either obviously Aspinall, or Marduk's six. Searching for further information about these might reveal more - some of them are almost certainly well-documented zoo or wildlife park escapes. What we can say though, even with that poor-quality information, is that there is no particular area of the country which is more likely than another to be involved in such a report (except Kent!), and there is no one species repeatedly being turned up. This therefore argues quite strongly against there being a breeding population of any species in any part of the country.

Rolfe.
 
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