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Air defenses

Wow. Interesting stuff.

This thread appears to be a decent smack down of any 'stand down' theory, IMO.

I'm sure the CT's would find some way to "explain" it all. They might even accuse us of being part of the conspiracy.;) Or at the very least say would should be thrown in jail once the "truth" comes out.
 
To be pedantic, the Pentagon does have air defenses.

It has passive defenses. I.e., the building is armored. Passive defenses never accidentally misfire, never destroy friendly aircraft by mistake, and have lightning-quick reflexes. It's the smart way to go in this situation.

Thanks for the AAM discussion, though -- the depth of experience and expertise on this Forum never fails to impress me. :D
 
Just as an example (not Air Defense related) following the axe murder of two US Army Officers in the DMZ between North and South Korea in 1976, we had 8 fighter bombers from the US loaded and ready for combat in South Korea in UNDER 24 hours. The flying time alone from their US base to their S. Korean base was slightly over 14 hours. Air-to-air Fighters were already in S. Korea.
I refueled those 111s in the weather over the Pacific on their way. We were at Kadena.

I did think it was strange the 9/11 truth movement thinks you can just jump in and shoot down stuff.
 
OK, with AMTMAN's avatar and Reheat's avatar it looks like a jet duel in here.

Spitfire, I think you are outclassed...
 
Maybe the Russians should have done that to keep Mathias Rust from buzzing the Kremlin.
Hmmm, I don't think the Russians received any P-51s or F4Us. They did get Hurricanes, P-47s, P-39s, and P-63s though (and probably a few other types I've forgotten about).

:D
 
I did think it was strange the 9/11 truth movement thinks you can just jump in and shoot down stuff.

Not in modern days, I suppose. But I have to advertise a Finnish Fighter Ace, Jorma Sarvanto. He did this in 1940 ;)

I think it's still some kind of a world record. On January 6, 1940 Sarvanto managed to down six bombers during a mission that lasted about 25 minutes. The fight itself took no longer than 4-5 minutes.

Ok. History break over. Back to modern business :p
 
Just as an example (not Air Defense related) following the axe murder of two US Army Officers in the DMZ between North and South Korea in 1976, we had 8 fighter bombers from the US loaded and ready for combat in South Korea in UNDER 24 hours. The flying time alone from their US base to their S. Korean base was slightly over 14 hours. Air-to-air Fighters were already in S. Korea.
Ah yes, apart from the fact that the murders themselves (just 3 days earlier) were an incredibly despicable act, who could forget the now mythical Operation Paul Bunyan, talk about the ultimate show of force.

If only Crazy Chainsaw was there he'd of had that tree down in no time. :D
 
I too remember climbing atop weaponry as a boy of 8. Of course, it was WWII weaponry, a piece of history painted in Green and mounted on a concrete slab as a memorial to those who died...

TAM:)
 
OK, with AMTMAN's avatar and Reheat's avatar it looks like a jet duel in here.

Spitfire, I think you are outclassed...

Maybe, maybe not. The Spit is probably the most elegant piston engined fighter ever built.
 
In the spirit of the thread - although an admitted deviation from the specific items listed in the OP: We've all noticed that many conspiracy fantasists pushed the notion of antiaircraft missle emplacements existing at the Pentagon; most of us here are familiar with April Gallop and the fantasist charge that she's proof of the existence of SAM defenses there. What continues to be missed is how those are supposed to work in such cluttered airspace without accidentally shooting down legitimate air traffic; Reagan International is very close by, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that the normal landing approaches of those airliners comes rather close to the Pentagon anyway, and any deviations that did occur would not be obvious until it was too late to do anything. So (ignoring the lack of physical evidence for such emplacements) given the practical problems with such a deployment, it's a wonder that fantasists continue to insist on their presence pre-9/11; they seem to ignore that procedure is every bit as important as material existence (at least in my dealings with governmental bureaucracies), and the lack of a practical procedure for identifying deviant aircraft in time to do anything about it would preclude the emplacement of the defenses to begin with.

At any rate, that's my own take on that specific part of the topic. As an attempt to strengthen up the argument (or see if it should be dismissed) I offer up that last submission for critique: ".. the lack of practical procedure for identifying deviant aircraft in time... would preclude the emplacement of the defenses to begin with". Any pilots or individuals in the airline industry (or military) have any judgements/commentary/critiques of that statement? I base it on the fact that deviations from normal flightpaths to suicide-ram buildings in the DC area would only be noticeable for a short period of time - on the order of seconds - and it's just not possible to conclusively identify those aircraft, let alone their intents (damaged controlls? pilot inattention? etc...) in the timeframe allotted and still maintain a reasonable certainty that those craft and the pilots' intents have been correctly identified; it seems more likely that any air defense plan would depend on distance and time rather than local defenses, and the existence of the Air National Guard to me is evidence in favor of that. Is that a reasonable statement? And also, does anyone have any quantifications for my points i.e. the distance between normal flightpaths and the Pentagon, White House, Capitol Hill, etc., and what those distances would translate into timewise for planes travelling at approach speeds?
 
In the spirit of the thread - although an admitted deviation from the specific items listed in the OP: We've all noticed that many conspiracy fantasists pushed the notion of antiaircraft missle emplacements existing at the Pentagon; most of us here are familiar with April Gallop and the fantasist charge that she's proof of the existence of SAM defenses there. What continues to be missed is how those are supposed to work in such cluttered airspace without accidentally shooting down legitimate air traffic; Reagan International is very close by, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that the normal landing approaches of those airliners comes rather close to the Pentagon anyway, and any deviations that did occur would not be obvious until it was too late to do anything. So (ignoring the lack of physical evidence for such emplacements) given the practical problems with such a deployment, it's a wonder that fantasists continue to insist on their presence pre-9/11; they seem to ignore that procedure is every bit as important as material existence (at least in my dealings with governmental bureaucracies), and the lack of a practical procedure for identifying deviant aircraft in time to do anything about it would preclude the emplacement of the defenses to begin with.

At any rate, that's my own take on that specific part of the topic. As an attempt to strengthen up the argument (or see if it should be dismissed) I offer up that last submission for critique: ".. the lack of practical procedure for identifying deviant aircraft in time... would preclude the emplacement of the defenses to begin with". Any pilots or individuals in the airline industry (or military) have any judgements/commentary/critiques of that statement? I base it on the fact that deviations from normal flightpaths to suicide-ram buildings in the DC area would only be noticeable for a short period of time - on the order of seconds - and it's just not possible to conclusively identify those aircraft, let alone their intents (damaged controlls? pilot inattention? etc...) in the timeframe allotted and still maintain a reasonable certainty that those craft and the pilots' intents have been correctly identified; it seems more likely that any air defense plan would depend on distance and time rather than local defenses, and the existence of the Air National Guard to me is evidence in favor of that. Is that a reasonable statement? And also, does anyone have any quantifications for my points i.e. the distance between normal flightpaths and the Pentagon, White House, Capitol Hill, etc., and what those distances would translate into timewise for planes travelling at approach speeds?


There are two things readily available on the internet that blow the whole notion of missile batteries outta the sky. The published approach procedure for runway 15, which shows an extended runway centerline right over the Pentagon, with no restrictions - and the low altitude chart for the DC area, which depicts no prohibited airspace above or around the Pentagon.

9902460dcc60407af.jpg




I posted this(or more accurately - had this posted, since I was banned) in the relevant thread and it got completely ignored.
 
Thanks Apathoid for that post. Excellent. Hadn't noticed it before.
 
I posted this(or more accurately - had this posted, since I was banned) in the relevant thread and it got completely ignored.

That's seems to be SOP for them, they either attack you for not blieving them or they ignore you. So much for wanting answers. I also noticed that there's no runway across the river at Anacostia, heck the name is not even there. Guess Mr. Judge never bothered to look at a sectional.
 
<snip>most of us here are familiar with April Gallop and the fantasist charge that she's proof of the existence of SAM defenses there.

As an aside, Ms. Gallop is involved in at least four lawsuits as a result of the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 and none of them allege the existence of SAM defences at the Pentagon.
 

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