Afghanistan

[Cosmic Yak]

Think of it as a savings account. The funds are there and perhaps are earning a small amount of interest income until they are needed. The former government was relying on them being available so they could do things like buy food, oil, electricity, and pay the civil service. Then the Taliban came to power and the funds were frozen. Now the new government can't buy food, oil, electricity, nor can they pay the civil service because they no longer have access to the money.



Here's one: Afghanistan’s frozen funds: leverage over the Taliban or the cause of an economic crisis? [princeton.edu]

Thanks for a considered and non-patronising post: it is appreciated.
However, looking at your link, it says this:

Even if agencies and NGOs have a budget to do particular projects, they can’t get the money out of the banks, so they can’t pay their staff...

It is unclear when and how the international community will release funds and resume financing for development projects,

As I have pointed out before, the frozen funds are aid donations. I don't see, therefore, that they would be used for paying the civil service, or the other things you mentioned. It seems, from my source and yours, that this money was to be used for development projects, rather than the day-to-day running of the government. Again, happy to be corrected on this if I have misunderstood.

I really feel for the larger population of Afghanistan, especially those living in the cities who can't farm their own food. They had no say in whether or not they wanted the Taliban in power; the group simply roared into the country and took over the former government by force. Yes, said former government was incredibly corrupt and largely ineffective, but at least it had the backing of the international community, which meant some semblance of a stable economy.

Agreed, but the original post I was responding to on this was from Suburban Turkey, which stated an opposition to food aid. This is what I was highlighting, and what I was disagreeing with. I think it obvious that Afghanistan needs aid, and I find the assertion that it is a bad thing less than credible, and somewhat heartless.

I'm very saddened to see large numbers of people suddenly displaced and driven into poverty because a group of fanatics with a very narrow worldview took over. That's true not only of Afghanistan, but of all people forced to live under governments who have little care for the people of the counties they're supposed to be running.

Again, I agree with this. The problem is that releasing these funds to the Taliban carries no guarantee that they will actually be used for the benefit of ordinary Afghans. If a way could be found to bypass them, I would be all for it, but that's a tricky proposition. Thus far, the Taliban have shown scant concern for the welfare of other Afghans, particularly those of differing ethnicities from their own. The Hazaras, for example, have suffered horribly at the hands of the largely Pathan Taliban.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

CIA used living human being as torture training prop at black site:

A detainee at a secret CIA detention site in Afghanistan was used as a living prop to teach trainee interrogators, who lined up to take turns at knocking his head against a plywood wall, leaving him with brain damage, according to a US government report.

The details of the torture of Ammar al-Baluchi are in a 2008 report by the CIA’s inspector general, newly declassified as part of a court filing by his lawyers aimed at getting him an independent medical examination.

Baluchi, a 44-year-old Kuwaiti, is one of five defendants before a military tribunal on Guantánamo Bay charged with participation in the 9/11 plot, but the case has been in pre-trial hearings for 10 years, mired in a dispute over legal admissibility of testimony obtained after torture.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2022/mar/14/cia-black-site-detainee-training-prop-torture-techniques

 

[The Great Zaganza]

What would have happened to Ukraine if Biden didn't withdraw when he did?

Can you imagine how much harder it would have been for this Administration to support Ukraine to this degree if the US hadn't withdrawn from Afghanistan?

I find it probable that Biden believed a year ago that Russia would invade Ukraine in '22 and that was a major reason not to delay the withdrawal from Afghanistan, even though that would have been politically advantageous at the time.

In hindsight, not having to watch that flank, militarily and politically, was probably critical for reacting to the invasion to the degree Biden and the allied countries have done.

Sucks for the Afghans, but gives the Ukrainians some fighting chance, albeit at a terrible cost.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Time Running Out to Address Afghanistan’s Hunger Crisis
Without a Functioning Central Bank, Aid Not Enough

Since January 2022, roughly 13,000 newborns have died from malnutrition and hunger-related diseases, 95 percent of the population does not have enough to eat, and 3.5 million children need nutritional support. The United Nations has called the situation “a food insecurity and malnutrition crisis of unparalleled proportions.”

“Half of those we admit for critical care are also malnourished,” a doctor with Médecins Sans Frontières reported. Almost 800 children in one hospital in Helmand province are there because of acute malnutrition.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/17/time-running-out-address-afghanistans-hunger-crisis

Man made starvation campaign having predictable results.

 

[The Atheist]

CIA used living human being as torture training prop at black site:

I trust you weren't expecting anyone to be surprised.

Man made starvation campaign having predictable results.

Soon to be joined by a much great man-made disaster when the food shortages hit Africa.

 

[Blue Mountain]

Three recent news stories out of Afghanistan. It looks like the Taliban haven't changed one bit.

Many baffled by Taliban reneging pledge on girls' education [CTV News; Friday, March 25]

The Taliban have so far refused to explain their sudden decision to renege on the pledge to allow girls to go to school beyond sixth grade. Schools were supposed to reopen to older girls on Wednesday, the start of the new school year.

The ban caught even the Taliban-appointed Education Ministry unprepared. In many places across Afghanistan, some girls in higher grades returned to schools, only to be told to go home.

Taliban blocked unaccompanied women from flights: officials [CTV News; Saturday, March 26]

Afghanistan's Taliban rulers refused to allow dozens of women to board several flights, including some overseas, because they were travelling without a male guardian, two Afghan airline officials said Saturday.

The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of repercussions from the Taliban, said dozens of women who arrived at Kabul's international airport Friday to board domestic and international flights were told they couldn't do so without a male guardian.

Some of the women were dual nationals returning to their homes overseas, including some from Canada, according to one of the officials. Women were denied boarding on flights to Islamabad, Dubai and Turkey on Kam Air and the state-owned Ariana Airline, said the officials.

Taliban bars gov't employees without beards from work [CTV News; Monday, March 28]

Afghanistan's Taliban has instructed all government employees to wear a beard and adhere to a dress code or risk being fired, three sources told Reuters, the latest of several new restrictions imposed by the hardline Islamist administration.

The sources said representatives from the Ministry for the Propagation of Virtue and Prevention of Vice were patrolling the entrances to government offices on Monday to check that employees were in compliance with the new rules.

Employees were being instructed not to shave their beards and to wear local clothing consisting of a long, loose top and trousers, and a hat or turban. They were also told to ensure they prayed at the correct times, two of the sources said.

 

[The Atheist]

Three recent news stories out of Afghanistan. It looks like the Taliban haven't changed one bit.

Sadly true.

Imagine spending 20 years in a war based on absurd premises to achieve exactly nothing.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Sadly true.

Imagine spending 20 years in a war based on absurd premises to achieve exactly nothing.

In what way were the premises for the invasion absurd? The US wanted Bin Laden, and the Taliban wouldn't give him up. What do you find absurd about that?
As for achieving nothing, I wouldn't be so sure, or so cynical.
For a start, girls have been in education for years. This is an achievement, and it's clear from the protests against the school closures that girls value their education, and won't just passively submit to Taliban oppression and denial of rights. Progress has been made in other areas too, such as female employment.
I think it might be more accurate to say that the Taliban are attempting to undo much of what has been achieved since the invasion. Moreover, it's not all the Taliban: there are reports of division among their ranks, particularly on the issue of female education.

 

[Samson]

In what way were the premises for the invasion absurd? The US wanted Bin Laden, and the Taliban wouldn't give him up. What do you find absurd about that?
As for achieving nothing, I wouldn't be so sure, or so cynical.
For a start, girls have been in education for years. This is an achievement, and it's clear from the protests against the school closures that girls value their education, and won't just passively submit to Taliban oppression and denial of rights. Progress has been made in other areas too, such as female employment.
I think it might be more accurate to say that the Taliban are attempting to undo much of what has been achieved since the invasion. Moreover, it's not all the Taliban: there are reports of division among their ranks, particularly on the issue of female education.

Agreed.
There has been a massive uplift in female education.
Russia Myanmar and Afghanistan show that we should all hang our heads in shame.

 

[dudalb]

Sadly true.

Imagine spending 20 years in a war based on absurd premises to achieve exactly nothing.

You don't seem to get that having three thousand people killed on your own soil makes most nations a little angry, and the people expect that something be done that goes beyond mere words.

 

[dudalb]

Three recent news stories out of Afghanistan. It looks like the Taliban haven't changed one bit.

Many baffled by Taliban reneging pledge on girls' education [CTV News; Friday, March 25]


Taliban blocked unaccompanied women from flights: officials [CTV News; Saturday, March 26]


Taliban bars gov't employees without beards from work [CTV News; Monday, March 28]

Anybody who thought they would was living in fantasy land.
What is interesting is that a lot of this is not even based in Islamic law;Islamic law says nothing about beards;it's based in Pathan Tribal law.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Anybody who thought they would was living in fantasy land.
What is interesting is that a lot of this is not even based in Islamic law;Islamic law says nothing about beards;it's based in Pathan Tribal law.

Not actually true: in the Hadiths of Al Bukhari and Ibn Umar, there are prohibitions on trimming beards.
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/1189/ruling-on-shaving-the-beard

 

[The Atheist]

In what way were the premises for the invasion absurd? The US wanted Bin Laden, and the Taliban wouldn't give him up. What do you find absurd about that?

Damn, I'd forgotten about that bloke the grunts topped.

In Pakistan.

10 years after the invasion, which was every bit as cynical as Putin's current ploy.

As for achieving nothing, I wouldn't be so sure, or so cynical.

I'm certain, not cynical.

For a start, girls have been in education for years. This is an achievement, and it's clear from the protests against the school closures that girls value their education, and won't just passively submit to Taliban oppression and denial of rights.

No they won't submit passively, they'll be beaten into submission.

You don't seem to get that having three thousand people killed on your own soil makes most nations a little angry, and the people expect that something be done that goes beyond mere words.

What?

15 Saudis and 4 other non-Afghans attack America so you bomb the **** out of Afghanistan for 20 years? How did that work out? You must have won in 20 years.

How many days did it take the Taliban to re-take the whole country?

Let's ignore the fact that a flying school in America taught these guys how to fly. Why didn't you bomb San Diego? Why not bomb Germany? They spent a lot of time there, too.

It's really funny that Afghanistan is the one thing I've been able to agree with NZ's chief protest-about-everything lunatic, John Minto. When the attack on A'stan was launched he said it was a typical schoolyard bully response - get punched on the nose to take a gun to school the next day.

Aren't you the guy predicting Civil War 2.0? Maybe take a look at the way America conducts itself before you wonder why it's the balls-up internally you love so much. Feel free to ask for a list of wars America started since 1945.

Hint: it's a lot more than Russia/USSR.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Damn, I'd forgotten about that bloke the grunts topped.

In Pakistan.

10 years after the invasion, which was every bit as cynical as Putin's current ploy.

Are you saying OBL was never in Afghanistan?

I'm certain, not cynical.

A certainty that can only be maintained by ignoring the actual progress that has been made.

No they won't submit passively, they'll be beaten into submission.

Maybe. Maybe not. As I pointed out before, there are divisions within the Taliban on this subject, and it's yet to be decided which faction will triumph.

What?

15 Saudis and 4 other non-Afghans attack America so you bomb the **** out of Afghanistan for 20 years? How did that work out? You must have won in 20 years.

This is a startlingly ignorant depiction of the military actions in Afghanistan, and the factors that led to it.
It is also quite disrespectful to the US, British and other coalition forces who risked their lives, and gave their lives, to try to defend the Afghan population against the Taliban- and also to the thousands of Afghan soldiers who did the same thing.
Once again, around 85% of the civilian casualties there were caused by the Taliban and other insurgent/terrorist groups. Your assertion about the US bombing the crap out of Afghanistan is untrue- that's not what happened, and I'm surprised you think it was.

 

[The Atheist]

Are you saying OBL was never in Afghanistan?

How the zarking fardwarks would I know where he was?

If you know where he was, I suggest you have a chat to the CIA, because they didn't seem to have a clue.

A certainty that can only be maintained by ignoring the actual progress that has been made.

Looks to me like things are going to be identical to how they were when the invasion took place. In what way is that progress?

Maybe. Maybe not. As I pointed out before, there are divisions within the Taliban on this subject, and it's yet to be decided which faction will triumph.

And baby Jesus might be resurrected and save us all...

This is a startlingly ignorant depiction of the military actions in Afghanistan, and the factors that led to it.

What part of what I typed was incorrect? Were there not 15 Saudis and 4 other Arabs? How many Afghans were there?

It is also quite disrespectful to the US, British and other coalition forces who risked their lives, and gave their lives, to try to defend the Afghan population against the Taliban- and also to the thousands of Afghan soldiers who did the same thing.

Deliberately so. I have zero respect for grunts.

Once again, around 85% of the civilian casualties there were caused by the Taliban and other insurgent/terrorist groups.

Oh wow, some guy on the internet said it, it must be true.

85%

Awaiting evidence...

Your assertion about the US bombing the crap out of Afghanistan is untrue- that's not what happened, and I'm surprised you think it was.

Unlike you, I use actual evidence and stuff.

https://www.statista.com/chart/25748/us-airstrikes-civilian-casulties/
https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/afghan

 

[Cosmic Yak]

How the zarking fardwarks would I know where he was?

If you know where he was, I suggest you have a chat to the CIA, because they didn't seem to have a clue.

Once again, you are displaying your ignorance of events in Afghanistan.
Bin Laden was in the Tora Bora caves when the US invaded, a fact that was well-documented. He fled from there to Pakistan, which is where the CIA lost his trail.
If you did some research on this subject, it would help.

Looks to me like things are going to be identical to how they were when the invasion took place. In what way is that progress?

To repeat my earlier point: women have received education and been in employment for the last 20 years. That knowledge and experience remains, regardless of what the Taliban does now. This applies to the other areas of Afghan society too.

And baby Jesus might be resurrected and save us all...

Ignorance and cynicism do not an argument make.
Try reading instead.
https://www.business-standard.com/a...ion-beyond-class-6-report-122032700044_1.html

What part of what I typed was incorrect? Were there not 15 Saudis and 4 other Arabs? How many Afghans were there?

Dishonesty does not help your case either.
Please re-read my post, and I will allow you to correct yourself.

Deliberately so. I have zero respect for grunts.

From dishonesty to plain nastiness. Yuk.

Oh wow, some guy on the internet said it, it must be true.

85%

Awaiting evidence...

*sigh*
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/aug/10/afghanistan-civilian-casualties-statistics

Unlike you, I use actual evidence and stuff.

https://www.statista.com/chart/25748/us-airstrikes-civilian-casulties/
https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/afghan

Unlike you, I actually read my sources before posting them.
Do please highlight where in either of those articles it specifies the percentage of total casualties that these figures represent, or any kind of comparison with casualties caused by the Taliban and other insurgent groups.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Are you saying OBL was never in Afghanistan?



A certainty that can only be maintained by ignoring the actual progress that has been made.

Considering how quickly the whole thing collapsed after the US pulled out, it's pretty clear that this progress was only going to be maintained so long as the country remained a de-facto colony of the US.

The war was sold to the public on the idea of being a mostly police action against terrorists hiding there, then mission creeped into a neo-colonial project. How many more decades of occupation did the country need before this would be a success?

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Considering how quickly the whole thing collapsed after the US pulled out, it's pretty clear that this progress was only going to be maintained so long as the country remained a de-facto colony of the US.

The war was sold to the public on the idea of being a mostly police action against terrorists hiding there, then mission creeped into a neo-colonial project. How many more decades of occupation did the country need before this would be a success?

Agreed. The Afghan government was not at all ready to survive on its own, and the Taliban were too successful militarily to allow full governmental control over the whole of the country.

That said, I think the speed of the American withdrawal was a factor in triggering the collapse of the central government. There were other possibilities, such as a UN peacekeeping force, or- to my mind, better- a peacekeeping force from other Muslim countries. The Gulf states, Turkey and Pakistan have been vocal in their condemnation of western intervention in Muslim countries: let them step up and deal with the situation, especially as some of them (Saudi Arabia and Pakistan in particular) were responsible for the rise of the Taliban in the first place. Had Biden initiated talks with the UN, with the aim of establishing a Muslim peacekeeping force in Afghanistan, I think that would have been preferable to just upping sticks and running away. It would have shown that America still cared what happened to the Afghan people, it would have appeased America's allies, who were not informed of the imminent withdrawal, and it would have put the Muslim countries on the spot to back up their talk of appearing to support their Muslim brothers and sisters, whilst not actually doing a damn thing about it.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Agreed. The Afghan government was not at all ready to survive on its own, and the Taliban were too successful militarily to allow full governmental control over the whole of the country.

That said, I think the speed of the American withdrawal was a factor in triggering the collapse of the central government. There were other possibilities, such as a UN peacekeeping force, or- to my mind, better- a peacekeeping force from other Muslim countries. The Gulf states, Turkey and Pakistan have been vocal in their condemnation of western intervention in Muslim countries: let them step up and deal with the situation, especially as some of them (Saudi Arabia and Pakistan in particular) were responsible for the rise of the Taliban in the first place. Had Biden initiated talks with the UN, with the aim of establishing a Muslim peacekeeping force in Afghanistan, I think that would have been preferable to just upping sticks and running away. It would have shown that America still cared what happened to the Afghan people, it would have appeased America's allies, who were not informed of the imminent withdrawal, and it would have put the Muslim countries on the spot to back up their talk of appearing to support their Muslim brothers and sisters, whilst not actually doing a damn thing about it.

I'm failing to see how the US can compel these countries to agree to be left holding the bag after the US left. There's no reason to believe that any of these countries wanted anything to do with this boondoggle.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I'm failing to see how the US can compel these countries to agree to be left holding the bag after the US left. There's no reason to believe that any of these countries wanted anything to do with this boondoggle.

They wouldn't need to compel them. Expose their hypocrisy, and then get the UN to step in. America's reputation is salvaged, its allies are not angered, and Afghanistan has some kind of better future. Winner winner, chicken dinner.