Afghanistan

[theprestige]

I don't see how starving the Afghan public punishes the Taliban. The people in power are going to be the last ones to miss a meal.

I don't see how paying the Taliban feeds the Afghan people. Sending food to the Taliban just gives them another stockpile of currency they can use to reward winners and deprive losers. Bankrolling a tyranny is not the way.

Now, if the Taliban invited foreign aid agencies to come in and control food distribution end-to-end, without Taliban interference or oversight, then I'd blame other nations for not helping.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I don't see how paying the Taliban feeds the Afghan people. Sending food to the Taliban just gives them another stockpile of currency they can use to reward winners and deprive losers. Bankrolling a tyranny is not the way.

Now, if the Taliban invited foreign aid agencies to come in and control food distribution end-to-end, without Taliban interference or oversight, then I'd blame other nations for not helping.

Well, another lesson learned for the world. The US will invade your country for 20 years and rip the copper out the walls before leaving. It's really their fault for our war being a failure, so they must be punished.

Surely leaving the country a smoking ruin filled with starved refugees will not have any blowback. It's not like anyone will hold a grudge for their entire community starving to death. Afghanistan will quickly return to being a lawless wasteland that's perfect for anyone holding a grudge against the West to plot violence.

 

[Ziggurat]

Well, another lesson learned for the world. The US will invade your country for 20 years and rip the copper out the walls before leaving.

Yeah, no. We poured billions into building infrastructure for Afghanistan, we didn't loot it.

It's really their fault for our war being a failure, so they must be punished.

Given that the Taliban was explicitly opposed to much of our humanitarian efforts (such as educating girls), god damn right I'm going to blame them when they choose to destroy it.

Surely leaving the country a smoking ruin filled with starved refugees will not have any blowback. It's not like anyone will hold a grudge for their entire community starving to death. Afghanistan will quickly return to being a lawless wasteland that's perfect for anyone holding a grudge against the West to plot violence.

Now do Afghan public resentment against the Taliban.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Yeah, no. We poured billions into building infrastructure for Afghanistan, we didn't loot it.

Yes, one such piece of infrastructure was the central bank, which is now paralyzed and sending the country into a liquidity crisis. you're right that we haven't looted it though. We're not even stealing the money, we're just preventing the Afghans from using it. It's all right there, just out of reach while the nation slowly starves to death.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yes, one such piece of infrastructure was the central bank, which is now paralyzed and sending the country into a liquidity crisis. you're right that we haven't looted it though. We're not even stealing the money, we're just preventing the Afghans from using it. It's all right there, just out of reach while the nation slowly starves to death.

Gee, I can't imagine why we don't want to give millions of dollars to the Taliban. It's just so confusing.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Gee, I can't imagine why we don't want to give millions of dollars to the Taliban. It's just so confusing.

Sure. We lost the war and now we're extracting our pound of flesh. Not from the Taliban mind you, but from the Afghan population.

The Taliban will survive this genocidal insanity. How many of the civilian population will remains to be seen.

 

[Ziggurat]

Sure. We lost the war and now we're extracting our pound of flesh. Not from the Taliban mind you, but from the Afghan population.

You say that like the Taliban won't benefit if we release the money. That's... stupid.

The Taliban will survive this genocidal insanity. How many of the civilian population will remains to be seen.

We've been accused of genocide in Afghanistan before, and it turned out to be nothing of the sort.

 

[shuttlt]

Can't they do some kind of deal with the $83Billion in equipment that was left behind? It feels like the Chinese, or the Iranians or somebody would be willing to help them out.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Can't they do some kind of deal with the $83Billion in equipment that was left behind? It feels like the Chinese, or the Iranians or somebody would be willing to help them out.

You raise an interesting question. I'm not sure how the Chinese will respond. It's probably not in their interests to have an entire population uprooted by famine right on their borders.

 

[Ziggurat]

Can't they do some kind of deal with the $83Billion in equipment that was left behind? It feels like the Chinese, or the Iranians or somebody would be willing to help them out.

First off, that figure is off. We spent $83 billion arming and training the Afghan army since 2001. That does not mean that they ever had $83 billion in equipment, and given that equipment gets destroyed in combat or wears out over time, replacement parts would be in that total, and ammunition gets used up, what would have been available by the time the Taliban took over would have been only a fraction of the equipment subtotal.

Second, none of the equipment we gave them was cutting edge. China certainly isn't going to learn anything really sensitive from recovering it. Given that Iran has access to Russian gear, even if it's fancier than domestically produced arms, I doubt they're going to learn anything of note either.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Well, another lesson learned for the world. The US will invade your country for 20 years and rip the copper out the walls before leaving. It's really their fault for our war being a failure, so they must be punished.

Surely leaving the country a smoking ruin filled with starved refugees will not have any blowback. It's not like anyone will hold a grudge for their entire community starving to death. Afghanistan will quickly return to being a lawless wasteland that's perfect for anyone holding a grudge against the West to plot violence.

Who created those 'smoking ruins'? The Taliban.
Who created the refugee crisis? The Taliban.
What about the food shortage? Well, this is not a new situation for Afghanistan: in fact, it's been going on for years. The withdrawal of US troops is just one factor among many- and a lot of those factors can be laid directly at the feet of the Taliban.
https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefw...11E4927047168492573D90007A4CF-Full_Report.pdf
https://www.fao.org/News/2001/011006-e.htm

The corrupt and basically useless previous Afghan government is also responsible.

Now, you talk of 'holding a grudge for their entire community starving to death'. That is entirely possible- but the target of that animosity may well prove to be the actual perpetrators, the Taliban, rather than the US.

I also rather dislike this post-colonial mentality, in which the peoples of developing countries are seen as passive and helpless victims of circumstances, and only the developed world is capable of action, and only the developed world is responsible for its actions. If the Afghan people don't want to be ruled by the Taliban, they are more than capable of overthrowing them.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

If the Afghan people don't want to be ruled by the Taliban, they are more than capable of overthrowing them.

And they will. Then we will point at the Taliban and say "See, we told you they were pure evil!" as the country descends into total anarchy. Mission accomplished!

 

[Cosmic Yak]

And they will. Then we will point at the Taliban and say "See, we told you they were pure evil!" as the country descends into total anarchy. Mission accomplished!

Who is 'we' in this context? What mission would be accomplished by this?

Once again, this appears to be another example of colonial thinking. You seem to be saying that, left to their own devices, the Afghan people would be incapable of solving their own problems, and so, by implication, they need a more 'civilised' or 'developed' country to step in and govern things for them.
Happy to be wrong about this- perhaps you'd like to clarify.

 

[The Atheist]

Oh, the irony* when a Kiwi asks the Taliban for refuge.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/12...liban-after-being-declined-emergency-miq-spot

Made even more ironic by the NZ government approving incoming quarantine spots for musicians, sportspeople, DJs and The Wiggles.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Who created those 'smoking ruins'? The Taliban.
Who created the refugee crisis? The Taliban.
What about the food shortage? Well, this is not a new situation for Afghanistan: in fact, it's been going on for years. The withdrawal of US troops is just one factor among many- and a lot of those factors can be laid directly at the feet of the Taliban.
https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefw...11E4927047168492573D90007A4CF-Full_Report.pdf
https://www.fao.org/News/2001/011006-e.htm

The corrupt and basically useless previous Afghan government is also responsible.

Now, you talk of 'holding a grudge for their entire community starving to death'. That is entirely possible- but the target of that animosity may well prove to be the actual perpetrators, the Taliban, rather than the US.

I also rather dislike this post-colonial mentality, in which the peoples of developing countries are seen as passive and helpless victims of circumstances, and only the developed world is capable of action, and only the developed world is responsible for its actions. If the Afghan people don't want to be ruled by the Taliban, they are more than capable of overthrowing them.

The Taliban was in control before the invasion, committing all sorts of atrocities as you might expect.

20 years of the US forcing a bloody civil war there didn't really improve the situation. If this mass-murder via famine is insisted on, it's going to be unambiguous that our involvement only made people already in a terrible situation way worse off.

ETA: It's not a colonial mentality, it's a colonial reality. The 20 year invasion was neo-imperialism. An outside power popped up a puppet government and made the entire population largely dependent on a wealthy benefactor. Their entire economy and puppet government collapsed when the imperial master abandoned this colonial project, and now they're twisting the knife by ensuring those left behind will starve.

Whatever independent agency the Afghan people had has been thoroughly bombed out of them thanks to the god-like power of the US military. Lest they get any big ideas, we've decided to bounce the rubble through a campaign of starvation.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

The Taliban was in control before the invasion, committing all sorts of atrocities as you might expect.

20 years of the US forcing a bloody civil war there didn't really improve the situation.

The Taliban did not control all of Afghanistan before the US invasion.
The civil war was not created by America; the Afghans did that themselves, after the Russians pulled out.

If this mass-murder via famine is insisted on, it's going to be unambiguous that our involvement only made people already in a terrible situation way worse off.

Once again, it is entirely within the power of the Taliban to prevent this famine, and I cannot grasp why you keep pretending this isn't the case.

ETA: It's not a colonial mentality, it's a colonial reality. The 20 year invasion was neo-imperialism. An outside power popped up a puppet government and made the entire population largely dependent on a wealthy benefactor. Their entire economy and puppet government collapsed when the imperial master abandoned this colonial project, and now they're twisting the knife by ensuring those left behind will starve.

I don't know where you're getting your information from, but it's seriously deficient.
Karzai was chosen by the Afghans, in the form of a loya jirga. His presidency was then reaffirmed by elections.
Ashraf Ghani, Karzai's successor, was also elected.

Whatever independent agency the Afghan people had has been thoroughly bombed out of them thanks to the god-like power of the US military.

Apart from the Taliban, who were, after all, the main targets of American bombing, and who seem to have retained all of their independent agency.

Lest they get any big ideas, we've decided to bounce the rubble through a campaign of starvation.

This makes no sense at all. What 'big ideas' do you claim Afghans are denied?
And, to ask again, who is this 'we' you are referring to? The same 'we' as Roger Ramjets' 'we', or a different one? If by that you mean America, or the west, then please specify which governments have published policies that state their objectives are to starve the Afghans for being uppity.

 

[Ziggurat]

Whatever independent agency the Afghan people had has been thoroughly bombed out of them thanks to the god-like power of the US military. Lest they get any big ideas, we've decided to bounce the rubble through a campaign of starvation.

Apart from the Taliban, who were, after all, the main targets of American bombing, and who seem to have retained all of their independent agency.

Yeah, I don't get this logic. How is it that the people we bombed the most are still independent, but everyone else was enslaved by bombing that wasn't even targeted at them?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Afghans are starving not because of insufficient aid, but because the US forcibly emptied govt coffers, triggering a currency crisis and shutting down govt salaries and services. This move is a death sentence for untold numbers of civilians, including many kids and unborn babies.

Simultaneously shutting down Afghanistan’s economy and flooding it with food aid is all but certain to decimate the country’s agricultural sector for a generation. This is what the US did in c.1990 Somalia and the country has still never recovered.

https://twitter.com/Max_Fisher/status/1492123766155005954

If we think Afghanistan is a lawless wasteland that is a ready host for international terrorists now, we ain't seen nothing yet. The US is planting the seeds for a generation or more of misery that is absolutely going to blow back in our faces. Even if you're not motivated by the obvious moral implications of deliberately pulling the rug out from under a desperately poor and war-torn nation, these punitive moves are 100% self-sabotage.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

https://twitter.com/Max_Fisher/status/1492123766155005954

If we think Afghanistan is a lawless wasteland that is a ready host for international terrorists now, we ain't seen nothing yet. The US is planting the seeds for a generation or more of misery that is absolutely going to blow back in our faces. Even if you're not motivated by the obvious moral implications of deliberately pulling the rug out from under a desperately poor and war-torn nation, these punitive moves are 100% self-sabotage.

Are you now saying you oppose aid being given to Afghanistan?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Are you now saying you oppose aid being given to Afghanistan?

Hard to explain how the US has any right to outright steal half the money.

Making an entire country dependent on foreign aid, rather than ending a needless poverty crush caused by seizing all the liquid wealth of the nation, is a disastrous idea.

Yes, I oppose making the entirety of Afghanistan a nation of beggars when giving them their money back and allowing them to resume being self-sufficient is an option.