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Afghanistan

Ziggurat said:
You are wrong. For the Taliban, it is about religious piety. It's true that crimes like rape have non-religious motivations, but that isn't disqualifying. Their religion still provides justification and encouragement to do those things. The fact that they may have no-religious motives as well doesn't make the religious motives irrelevant. Most human behaviors have multiple motivations.



If you haven't noticed, the Taliban's religious beliefs are incredibly sexist, so again, that's not exactly disqualifying.



The rape and murder that the Taliban commit are not isolated. And they are ideologically motivated.
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The quoted cases are isolated. Many are not actually by the Taliban, but by allied forces e.g. the Haqqani network. Remember the Taliban have been at war for decades, first against the Soviets the against the US. I am sure you can pull out occasional atrocities. What you cannot do is show that there is systematic mass rapes of whole populations and genocidal murder such as happened e.g. in ex-Yugoslavia.

Please find any examples of he Taliban arguing for rape and murder of children. It certainly is not justified from a religious argument. The Taliban actually have a tip line where they ask people to anonymously report abuse by their military. In reality the Taliban have little control over the local militias and none over the Haqqani network which are the most powerful military group.

That they are sexist is true. But that is not unique to Islam, Christian and Jewish sects can be very sexist. Jewish ritual cleanliness rules and rules of modesty requiring women to cover their hair etc. are similar to 'orthodox' Islamists like the Taliban.

I wonder if you are confusing the Taliban with IS? Certainly mass murder and sexual slavery were a feature of IS activity in Iraq / Syria before Iranian forces defeated them. It is certainly true they did create a religious justification for sexual slavery. The Taliban have never made a similar case.

One thing I think that will make the Taliban different from twenty years ago was that then they were predominantly people coming out of a rural tribal background with very traditional views. Since then the senior Taliban leaders have been in exile, living in a more cosmopolitan Islamic nation. They will have interacted with a broader range of scholars than when they were based in AfPak. An example of their change is that they are quite accommodating of Shia groups, appointed a senior Shia cleric as governor of a predominantly Shia district and have condemned attacks on Shia by ISIS.
 
Planigale said:
The quoted cases are isolated. Many are not actually by the Taliban, but by allied forces e.g. the Haqqani network. Remember the Taliban have been at war for decades, first against the Soviets the against the US. I am sure you can pull out occasional atrocities. What you cannot do is show that there is systematic mass rapes of whole populations and genocidal murder such as happened e.g. in ex-Yugoslavia.

Please find any examples of he Taliban arguing for rape and murder of children. It certainly is not justified from a religious argument. The Taliban actually have a tip line where they ask people to anonymously report abuse by their military. In reality the Taliban have little control over the local militias and none over the Haqqani network which are the most powerful military group.

That they are sexist is true. But that is not unique to Islam, Christian and Jewish sects can be very sexist. Jewish ritual cleanliness rules and rules of modesty requiring women to cover their hair etc. are similar to 'orthodox' Islamists like the Taliban.

I wonder if you are confusing the Taliban with IS? Certainly mass murder and sexual slavery were a feature of IS activity in Iraq / Syria before Iranian forces defeated them. It is certainly true they did create a religious justification for sexual slavery. The Taliban have never made a similar case.

One thing I think that will make the Taliban different from twenty years ago was that then they were predominantly people coming out of a rural tribal background with very traditional views. Since then the senior Taliban leaders have been in exile, living in a more cosmopolitan Islamic nation. They will have interacted with a broader range of scholars than when they were based in AfPak. An example of their change is that they are quite accommodating of Shia groups, appointed a senior Shia cleric as governor of a predominantly Shia district and have condemned attacks on Shia by ISIS.
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The Taliban harbored Bin Laden. Every other evil attributed to them is a red herring. As far as I'm concerned, they're welcome to Afghanistan, and the other Afghanis are welcome to them. Whatever. How they all sort out their business between themselves is not and should not be our problem. Making it our problem for the past 20 years was a huge mistake.

All I would have asked, from Bush, Obama, Trump, and Biden, is that we withdraw in good order, and not like a bunch of clowns piling out of a clown car. Too late now, of course.
 
Ah, Good Old Uncle Sam, defender of truth, justice and the American Way. World's policeman, and all round protector of democracy.

Home of the brave, I believe it even says in their national anthem.

Bravely helping the Taliban by providing a useful kill list: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/af...-forced-marriages/UXDNXUONWY5MBPBE7CXRO3OAL4/

A Politico report confirmed by Fox News said US officials gave the Taliban a list of American citizens, green card holders and Afghan allies in a bid to grant them entry to Kabul airport.
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And this will shock you, but I'll post it anyway:

President Joe Biden has acknowledged that "there may have been" such a list.

"Basically, they just put all those Afghans on a kill list," one defence official told Politico.
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USA, morally superior....

Maybe that should be "repugnant".
 
The Atheist said:
You know who's enjoying a great deal of schadenfreude over Afghanistan?
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The same people who have been cheerleading 12th century style religious brutes for decades as long as they're fighting the great Satan, while posturing as progressive?
 
trustbutverify said:
The same people who have been cheerleading 12th century style religious brutes for decades as long as they're fighting the great Satan, while posturing as progressive?
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I love the way Americans have an inherent inability to accept that both sides can be wrong, and that pointing out the sins of one side does not mean support for the other.

The enemy of my enemy is not my friend, they are both my enemy.

But nice try.
 
trustbutverify said:
No- I answered your question accurately. You might not like the answer... but who cares?
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Me.

Can you show me where these people are?

The same people who have been cheerleading 12th century style religious brutes for decades as long as they're fighting the great Satan, while posturing as progressive
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For the life of me, I can't think of anyone who conforms to that, but you're clearly in the know of some since you're so vehement that it's correct.

Just a couple of names will be fine.
 
Planigale said:
The quoted cases are isolated.
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The Taliban has been murdering and raping for decades. This isn’t something new.

Please find any examples of he Taliban arguing for rape and murder of children.
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They don’t have to argue for it, they just do it. And what the hell do you think is going to happen with all those child brides that they are demanding for their fighters? You think those girls will all be willing? You think their new “husbands” will wait until they are 18?

How naive are you?

It certainly is not justified from a religious argument.
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Are you not aware that Muhammad was a pedophile?

The Taliban actually have a tip line where they ask people to anonymously report abuse by their military.
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Bwahahahaha!

Oh, you sweet summer child. You are that naive.
 
The Atheist said:
Me.

Can you show me where these people are?



For the life of me, I can't think of anyone who conforms to that, but you're clearly in the know of some since you're so vehement that it's correct.

Just a couple of names will be fine.
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Sure. George Galloway and Yvonne Ridley
 
Planigale said:
One thing I think that will make the Taliban different from twenty years ago was that then they were predominantly people coming out of a rural tribal background with very traditional views. Since then the senior Taliban leaders have been in exile, living in a more cosmopolitan Islamic nation. They will have interacted with a broader range of scholars than when they were based in AfPak. An example of their change is that they are quite accommodating of Shia groups, appointed a senior Shia cleric as governor of a predominantly Shia district and have condemned attacks on Shia by ISIS.
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Why don't they start with renouncing Al-Qaeda and the "martyr" Bin Laden?
 
Ziggurat said:
The Taliban has been murdering and raping for decades. This isn’t something new.



They don’t have to argue for it, they just do it. And what the hell do you think is going to happen with all those child brides that they are demanding for their fighters? You think those girls will all be willing? You think their new “husbands” will wait until they are 18?

How naive are you?



Are you not aware that Muhammad was a pedophile?



Bwahahahaha!

Oh, you sweet summer child. You are that naive.
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I guess having been brought up as a muslim, my knowledge of Islam is better than yours. This statement is false and is intended to be offensive. There is no evidence that the Prophet was interested in prepubescent children. There is not a clear separation between marriage and 'engagement' in historic cultures, Marriages were often contracted at early ages throughout history. Marriages and sexual desire were in general unrelated. What is very clear in all accounts is that there was a considerable period (years) between the marriage and consummation of the marriage. This is very strong evidence that your statement is wrong.

Remind me what is the lowest age for marriage is in the US? It is not as if child brides are illegal in the US. Has the US signed up to the UN charter on the rights of the child?
 
Planigale said:
I guess having been brought up as a muslim, my knowledge of Islam is better than yours. This statement is false and is intended to be offensive. There is no evidence that the Prophet was interested in prepubescent children. There is not a clear separation between marriage and 'engagement' in historic cultures, Marriages were often contracted at early ages throughout history. Marriages and sexual desire were in general unrelated. What is very clear in all accounts is that there was a considerable period (years) between the marriage and consummation of the marriage. This is very strong evidence that your statement is wrong.
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And yet, the Taliban still take child brides, and they do have sex with them while they are under age. Maybe you should lecture them about how their interpretation of Islam is wrong.

I don’t think you will convince them, though.
 
Ziggurat said:
And yet, the Taliban still take child brides, and they do have sex with them while they are under age. Maybe you should lecture them about how their interpretation of Islam is wrong.

I don’t think you will convince them, though.
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It's worth a try. I'd enjoy watching that lecture on YT.
 
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