AE911Truth Watch

[X]

And is that really a solid piece of steel/cast iron/whatever or simply a box section?

Alright, in light of Cristpher7's latest photo (beolw), I will state that the steel is solid. I'll even go so far as to identify it as steel, and not the stainless stuff.

[qimg]http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/2976/acetylenecut1wk0.jpg[/qimg]

So to what extent is it proof (or otherwise) of Chris' point.

[/genuine curiosity]

Nothing, unless he can prove the cut can only be produced with therm?te, and can absolutely not be done with a torch. I can tell you right now a torch is capable of making those cuts. The edges look like torch cuts, and DGM has explained the slag on the outside. We have pictures showing such cuts being made.
At this stage, anything other than outright proof on Chritsopher7's part that only therm?te would have resulted in what is seen in the photo is speculation, nothing more.

 

[Arus808]

chris, when are you going to demonstrate to us the cutting a vertical column with thermite

you can show us pics of torch cuts all you want, you still dont prove your claims

show us a vertical cut with thermite.

if you can't do this, then hire someone to do this for you.
make sure you video tape it

 

[DGM]

OK this is the way it is(Chris prove me wrong). I arrive on a job site and see a 14"x14"x4" column 30+ feet tall and I want it on the ground. I can call in a crane @ $500hr to be safe or I can safely fell it myself. Now how do I do this? I think 'lumberjack'. I start my cuts on the sides at right angles to where I want it to go (with my torch no less)angling them down in the direction I want this multi ton column to fall. Next thing I do is drive a wedge into the topside of my cut so the column won't fall back on me. Now it's safe to cut the top. Now I have three sides of this column free and remaining vertical because I drove a wedge into one side. Now after I tell everyone to get out of the way I drive my wedge in until the columns own weight cause it to fall over using the bottom un-cut section as a hinge. The last thing for me to do is cut off the bottom (leaving slag on the outside of the column) and the column now is safely on the ground.

Chris:
This is how it's done safely every day of the week. Can you explain to me how it was done your way?

 

[SpitfireIX]

So, you don't think there is slag on the outside of the cut at the bottom.
[lower arrow]
[qimg]http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3187/cut3ol5.jpg[/qimg]


and you don't think the slag is on the back side of this acetylene torch cut

[qimg]http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/9259/acetylenecut2em3.jpg[/qimg]

Right

Hasty generalization. Slag is a liquid initially, and will behave like a liquid until it solidifies. In the WTC picture, the cuts is very steeply angled, and the slag tends to flow "downhill," as we can see in both the lower and upper cuts on the column.

In the other pictures, however, there are two possibilities. First, if the lance operator makes a perfectly horizontal cut, the liquid would be expected to flow more-or-less equally from both sides, except for one factor: the jet of gasses being ejected from the lance, which would tend to push the slag out the opposite side of the cut. Second, as the cut approaches the floor, if the lance operator is standing, or even kneeling, the cut will most likely slope down away from the lance, causing slag to tend to flow away from the lance.

Here is a video clearly showing slag flowing out the side from the cut is being made:

 

[Minadin]

A lance is an arc welder cutting tool.
They were using acetylene torches at ground zero.

Unless I'm completely forgetting my training, an arc welder uses the ability for steel to conduct electricity to create a short-circuit, which melts the welding wire to create the bead, and heats the steel to such a temperature that it fuses.

Thermal Lances seem to be quite different, and in fact share many similarities to an oxy-acetylene torch. I must admit, however, that while I've used both oxy-acetylene torches and arc welders on a semi-regular basis, I've not used thermal lances whatsoever, so it's possible that I'm mistaken.

 

[boloboffin]

Christopher, this is your picture.

As you can see, the slag is on the OUTSIDE of this beam. There is even a metal piece that is over the cut. This beam had to be cut from the inside, just like the bottom cut from the main picture in question.

Are you saying that this cut in the picture above is from a torch or from thermite?

 

[Christopher7]

Jeez chris, ok so what if it wasn't impossible that the 'slag' shown in your pics was caused by an oxy acetylene torch?

How far are you prepared to go based upon this?

The pic speaks for itself.
An oxy-acetylene cuts leaves slag on the backside of the cut, not the cutting side.
The bottom cut was not made by an oxy-acetylene torch.

Therefore, this cut was done with something other than an oxy-acetylene cutting torch.

Thermate melts steel and would leave slag on the inside and the outside of a box column.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

The pic speaks for itself.
An oxy-acetylene cuts leaves slag on the backside of the cut, not the cutting side.
The bottom cut was not made by an oxy-acetylene torch.

did you read DGM in post 403? seems a pretty plausible explanation

 

[Christopher7]

Christopher, this is your picture.

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g171/boloboffin2/911/cut2bi7.jpg

As you can see, the slag is on the OUTSIDE of this beam. There is even a metal piece that is over the cut. This beam had to be cut from the inside, just like the bottom cut from the main picture in question.

Are you saying that this cut in the picture above is from a torch or from thermite?

The exterior column section cut was made with an acetylene torch from the inside of the column.

There is no logical reason to cut out a section on one side and cut the other side from the inside, especially on a core column that is 4 inches thick.

There is no sign that this was done on the core column in question.
The cuts on the sides were at a 45° angle and above the bottom cut.

 

[Dave_46]

<snip>
An oxy-acetylene cuts leaves slag on the backside of the cut, not the cutting side.
<snip>

I am not sure that this assertion is correct.

The picture you have been flooding the thread with (you don't need to keep posting it, we've all seen it now) shows evidence of uneven cutting. This is most likely caused by the cutting torch being hand-held, it would be difficult in the extreme to have some sort of jig for holding the torch at the scene. When the torch is hand-held there is a tendancy for it to wander from the direct line of the cut, so that the flame plays on the surface, and consequently slag is not all forced through the cut. This would allow some of the slag to remain on the side where the cutting torch is.

Dave

 

[Christopher7]

OK this is the way it is(Chris prove me wrong). I arrive on a job site and see a 14"x14"x4" column 30+ feet tall and I want it on the ground. I can call in a crane @ $500hr to be safe or I can safely fell it myself.

The column in question is 52x22x4 [or close]
A 30' section would weigh about 27 tons.

Now how do I do this? I think 'lumberjack'. I start my cuts on the sides at right angles to where I want it to go (with my torch no less)angling them down in the direction I want this multi ton column to fall.

The 45° angle cuts on the long sides were made with an oxy-acetylene cutting torch. The 'signature' is clear.
The cuts at the top and bottom do NOT have this signature.

Next thing I do is drive a wedge into the topside of my cut so the column won't fall back on me. Now it's safe to cut the top.

You should drive wedges into both sides to be safe.

Now I have three sides of this column free and remaining vertical because I drove a wedge into one side. Now after I tell everyone to get out of the way I drive my wedge in until the columns own weight cause it to fall over using the bottom un-cut section as a hinge.

With a little help from Paul Bunyan.
You cannot bend a piece of steel 4" thick and 22" wide by pounding a wedge into the side of a column.
You cannot lift 27 tons by driving a wedge into the side of a column.
Furthermore
The column was nearly vertical.
You would have to get the center of gravity past the the lower side of the column before the weight of the column could be used to bend the lower side.
A wedge could not accomplish this.

This is how it's done safely every day of the week.

Not on a column of this size.

Can you explain to me how it was done your way?

No, i can only look at the result and see that the lower cut was not made with an oxy-acetylene cutting torch.
The slag on the inside and outside of these cuts could have been caused by thermite or thermate.
There are no other explanation for the slag on the outside of the lower cut.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

You cannot bend a piece of steel 4" thick and 22" wide by pounding a wedge into the side of a column.
You cannot lift 27 tons by driving a wedge into the side of a column.

archimedes might have something to say about this...

 

[WildCat]

Christopher, when will you or anyone else in the truth movement demonstrate that thermite can make such a cut? Don't you think this would be much more effective in making your case than posting on internet forums based on speculation alone?

 

[Christopher7]

I am not sure that this assertion is correct.

When the torch is hand-held there is a tendancy for it to wander from the direct line of the cut, so that the flame plays on the surface, and consequently slag is not all forced through the cut. This would allow some of the slag to remain on the side where the cutting torch is.

Dave

A professional cutter does not let the flame 'wander'.
The lower cut has a lot of slag on the outside.
It was NOT cut from the outside.

 

[Myriad]

There is no logical reason to cut out a section on one side and cut the other side from the inside, especially on a core column that is 4 inches thick.

Really?

If you were the one making that last cut, where would you rather be standing when you do it: area "A", or area "B"?

I think not having a huge honking column fall on your head is a pretty logical reason. Do you disagree?

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[boloboffin]

Wait.

You accept that a torch cut the sides of that beam?

This conversation is over.

 

[DGM]

The column in question is 52x22x4 [or close]
A 30' section would weigh about 27 tons.

Yes and I use that weight to my advantage.

The 45° angle cuts on the long sides were made with an oxy-acetylene cutting torch. The 'signature' is clear.

That's right

The cuts at the top and bottom do NOT have this signature.

So?

You should drive wedges into both sides to be safe.

Not necessary, The 'hinge' on the bottom is strong enough in that plane to stop the column from falling to the side.

With a little help from Paul Bunyan.
You cannot bend a piece of steel 4" thick and 22" wide by pounding a wedge into the side of a column.

I'm not bending it I'm simply getting the column to move out of vertical, the weight of the column does the bending. Try it sometime you do this sort of thing don't you?

You cannot lift 27 tons by driving a wedge into the side of a column.

I'm not lifting anything. I'm exerting a force with a wedge and a 10lb sledge. It's call friendly persuasion.

Furthermore
The column was nearly vertical.
You would have to get the center of gravity past the the lower side of the column before the weight of the column could be used to bend the lower side.
A wedge could not accomplish this.

Not on a column of this size.

And you know this how? Please explain why. (hint wedges and large sledge hammers exert huge amounts of force)

No, i can only look at the result and see that the lower cut was not made with an oxy-acetylene cutting torch.
The slag on the inside and outside of these cuts could have been caused by thermite or thermate.
There are no other explanation for the slag on the outside of the lower cut.

So please get one of your "truther" heroes to put on a demonstration so this old iron worker will be convinced. Until that day comes I'll do it my way and know that your "movement" is full of [rule10]. Fair enough?

 

[Christopher7]

Christopher, when will you or anyone else in the truth movement demonstrate that thermite can make such a cut? Don't you think this would be much more effective in making your case than posting on internet forums based on speculation alone?

Fair question.
I do not have the resources or expertise to conduct such a test.
I doubt that BYU will pay for such a test and Prof. Jones may not have the resources or access to a testing facility to conduct such a test.

You ask for a test to demonstrate that the cut in question could have been made by thermate.

The slag and the absence of a cutting torch 'signature' indicate that the lower cut was not made with a cutting torch.

Since there is no evidence to support your claim that the cut was made with an oxy-acetylene cutting torch, you are equally obligated to conduct a video test demonstrating your theory.

 

[Christopher7]

archimedes might have something to say about this...

What?

 

[jhunter1163]

Did someone say "lumberjack"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clPYfaTvHT0