Abstinence as HIV Prevention Strategy
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Meadmaker
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Bikewer said:
I agree with this, but I have to wonder about a few things.
Certainly, from the dawn of time, teenagers have occaisionally engaged in sex, but unless I'm sadly mistaken, a lot more of this generation, i.e. the teenagers of today, are engaging in sex more often than my generation, teenagers of the 1970s. And my generation had more sex than teenagers 20 years earlier.
I've had occaision to speak to a few teenagers on the subject. One friend of mine, currently 21, discussed it with me about 5 years ago. She didn't date in high school, and the reason she gave was that if you were dating, it was expected that you would have sex. Since she didn't want to have sex, she didn't date.
That was certainly not the case when I was a kid in high school. Sex between high school boyfriends and girlfriends was the exception, not the rule, especially prior to the Senior year.
And then this weekend, I had occaision to attend a Bar Mitzvah at an Orthodox Jewish home. I didn't talk very much to the kids present, but I did talk to adults about raising children, and they were confident that their kids weren't having sex like the kids in public school were, and I am confident that they are correct. It would be naive to assume that no teenage sex or pregnancy ever occurred among the Orthodox community, but I am confident that it is much, much, rarer than among the goyim.
In other words, while it is naive to assume that some kids will not experiment, regardless of what parents and educators tell them, it is equally naive to think that parents and educators have no influence on their children and the decision by those children to engage in or experiment with sex. I think it is clear that the permissive attitude of parents and educators does indeed lead to greater sexual activity among teenagers.
My own feeling is that children ought to be taught about the mechanics of reproduction, and the technology associated with preventing reproduction, but I hope that when it becomes an issue with my own child, I can manage to send the message, "This is what will happen when the time is right. And that time is not right now."
Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
I'm inclined to agree; it must be a multiple approach. We know (if not exactly why....) that young people in industrialized societies are reaching puberty earlier. There's been a lot of discussion, and even conspiracy theories.
It's also true that youngsters are bombarded as never before with sexual imagery, advertising, lyrics, fashions, and of course, the internet.
While their parents and educators are telling them "NO", every other aspect of society is screaming not only "yes", but "the more the better."
A head-in-the-sand approach towards education is not going to cut it, I fear.
It's also true that youngsters are bombarded as never before with sexual imagery, advertising, lyrics, fashions, and of course, the internet.
While their parents and educators are telling them "NO", every other aspect of society is screaming not only "yes", but "the more the better."
A head-in-the-sand approach towards education is not going to cut it, I fear.
crimresearch
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TragicMonkey said:
TM lives in Virginia...I'm pretty sure the General Assembly has outlawed snowballing.
Ladyhawk
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I'm not opposed to teaching kids the benefits of abstinence-only so long as its coupled with information about condoms, birth control and a discussion targeting common 'myths' about STDs and pregnancy.
I agree with Meadmaker. When I was growing up, teenage sex was the exception, not the rule. In fact, any girl who 'put out' in high school was automatically labeled a tramp. Nowadays, it seems that any girl who doesn't put out is labeled as either a prude, unattractive or unpopular or all three!
I agree with Meadmaker. When I was growing up, teenage sex was the exception, not the rule. In fact, any girl who 'put out' in high school was automatically labeled a tramp. Nowadays, it seems that any girl who doesn't put out is labeled as either a prude, unattractive or unpopular or all three!
Ove
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So you thought. In fact Masters and Johnson showed otherwise.
Therefore nobody talked about it but it happened still.
You don't understand do you?... S*x (i really oughta wash your mouth for saying that word) is for REPRODUCTION .... EOS. Once you've had your children there really is no need for indulging in such sinfull acts, (which is probably why very religious people keep on getting childeren all their lives
).To me it seems like the ID people really want a society like the Amish. I have no problem with that....... provided that they make that society in a faraway corner of the earth, my problem starts when they try to turn THIS well functioning (well sorta), educated, enlightened society into such a fundie heaven. THEN i object.
pgwenthold
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Meadmaker said:
"The good old days weren't always good, and tomorrow's not as bad as it seems."
According to everyone, things have always been so much better in the old days. I take your comments with a grain of oldfogeyism.
Ladyhawk said:
I dunno. I graduated from a relatively large, upper-middle class-ish public high school two years ago, and I really don't think such attitudes are quite as prevalent as they're made out to be. I think we got about two years of health class in middle school, which included good information about various contraceptive options, STDs, etc. I remember being warned that even condoms aren't 100% effective, so abstinence is the only truly safe option, but that was more of an afterthought than the focus of the class.
It was enough to make me wonder how anyone who had a clue could be so moronic as to not use a condom.
What I'm trying to say is, yes, there are enough of the dumb bimbo/jock types, but not as many as you might think. Even most of the potheads I knew, male and female, weren't like that. Sex was there, but it wasn't expected on the first date or anything.
Or maybe our high school was the exception *shrug*
epepke
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Meadmaker said:
I think you're sadly mistaken. I went to high school in the 1970s, and everybody was getting it on all the time, except for me and a couple of other geeky guys. Even I, who have had a lifelong problem with shyness only overcome less than a decade ago, managed some proto-sexual behavior.
There were stories of goings-on at parties for the Teenage Republicans that make what happens at on-premises swingers' parties look like a quilting bee by comparison.
A few years ago, I had an opportunity to read some of the letters sent to a former classmate of mine, with her permission. I don't shock easily, but this did. Not merely in the quantity of nookie but in the elaborate strategies of social manipulation.
Even the things I knew about back then were pretty, urm, modern. J. got oral contraceptives from Planned Parenthood when she was 14 so she could go out and have sex. C. before a date with A. talked to her girlfriends about what blouse to wear that could be taken off easily. S. thought that H. was a slut, because H. slept with boys at conventions. S. also slept with boys at conventions, but it was OK, because she already had met them before. G. was, at fifteen, openly sleeping with F., who was in college.
I think that most people just forget everything or pretend it didn't happen when they turn 18.
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
Nasarius said:
Nope. Public perception of high school comes from television and movies, not real life. High school is depicted, in fiction, as a place full of exciting events and sexy people.
It's really just a very dull four years of being surrounded by people with acne and braces. It's not very sexy at all.
I'd imagine the fictionalized version is appealing to real high school kids, who wish their lives were more like that, and also to those old enough to have forgotten what it was really like.
pgwenthold
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Meadmaker said:
Huh? You've gone from
"I don't know the numbers today, but I would guess that they are a lot lower."
to
"there is empirical data to back (it) up"
to
"I don't happen to know what that empirical data is"
So, if you don't know the numbers today, and you don't know what the empirical data is, then how do you know that the empricial data backs up the "old fogeyism"? You said it yourself, you are _guessing_.
And don't tell me to look it up. You are the one who claimed that more teenagers are having sex today (well, to be technical, you guessed that they were), and that there is empirical data to back it up. You tell me where it is.
Meadmaker
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Nasarius said:
When I was in high school, it wasn't expected on the last date. I was in the 70% range myself, and I didn't feel like an oddball. I dated several girls, and had a few relationships that lasted for a period of months. 30% is still a high enough number that you knew plenty of people who were "doing it", and a few who were doing it a lot. I just don't think it was expected or assumed.
Not that it didn't happen, mind you. Just like epepke pointed out, there were some pretty wild goings on at our high school, too. I was aware of a few orgies. But I think they were a lot less common than today. That figure of 70% virgin at graduation seems pretty reasonable from my memory, and I would say that a significant number of those virginities were lost between March and June of senior year, when it became warm enough to park the car on the back roads in the cornfields where I grew up. I knew when my friends, male and female, joined the 30%, and that's when it happened.
For what it's worth, on the CDC web site they had an article that said 60% of high school seniors had had sex in 2001, down from 67% in 1991. That data was compiled with interviews with students. It didn't say during what part of the year interviews were conducted, so we can assume that the rate at graduation was at least a few point higher.
"Much, much rarer"? Sounds like a lot of self serving stereotypes. I'd be very surprised if that were true. Got any data to back that up?
How would we get that data (on sexual activity among Orthodox Jewish teenagers)? I doubt they would talk to the researchers. But based on my conversations with them, I don't see how the kids would have the opportunity. They just aren't left alone with members of the opposite sex. Their schools are segregated and dating is taboo. I'm sure love finds a way once in a while, but I'm pretty sure it isn't common.
"Weren't having sex like the kids in public school"? So what kind ARE they having????
(My guess is solitary, but I have no data to back that up. )Of course what I actually meant is that the frequency of sex is much lower.
Same here. I was a virgin until the summer after senior year, and I wasn't particularly bothered about it. Sex was very rarely a topic of serious discussion, and I associated with a wide variety of cliques, from the science geeks to the artists to the stoners/skaters.Meadmaker said:
Yes, this is exactly my point. From my experience, it is still not "expected or assumed".
I guess I missed out on the fun
Lots of pot, ecstasy, and booze going around...but no orgies that I heard of.
Trading anecdotes is fun, but do we have real data? I'll see what I can dig up on the social science databases.
After about half an hour I haven't found anything really good, so I'm posting what I have and giving up for now.
Found a few studies from the 70s that seemed to show, yes, around 30-35% of high school students having sex. Lost the cites, sorry.
From 1990-1995, it was in about 53-54%
Based on the limited data that I found, I would tentatively conclude that sexual behavior has increased (up about 20%), but not too drastically.
Found a few studies from the 70s that seemed to show, yes, around 30-35% of high school students having sex. Lost the cites, sorry.
From 1990-1995, it was in about 53-54%
Based on the limited data that I found, I would tentatively conclude that sexual behavior has increased (up about 20%), but not too drastically.
LostAngeles
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Nasarius said:
Another thing to keep in mind is how honestly were they responding. During a time period, when having sex carried the potential of being labeled negatively, more may have lied. Conversely, when it almost seems expected for teens to have sex, they may lie.
But then again, that's probably factored into the error margin.
Just a thought.
