Abortion: My personal experience

[Mudcat]

Thank you for sharing that story. Most people would never have the guts to do that.

I respect your choice. I am sorry you are receivng some of the remarks in this thread.


It is crazy as it gets.

Just for some perspective, I have serious medical issues which would put me in jeopardy and would be passed on to my child. I do not want children--never ever have. From age 12 on, I needed a medical procedure to keep me from bleeding to death from my periods but no one would do it b/c they said I might change my mind about having kids!! I offered to sign a paper or whatever, no dice. I finally had it after I was in my 40s and other medical issues, by then, ensured I would not be procreating. In my 40s!!! Meanwhile I nearly died lots of times, and my quality of life sucked....all for naught.

I wasn't on military insurance--it wasn't an insurance issue.

We have a long way to go toward actually having the choices the fundies seem to think we have.

This actually sounds like a story I'm familiar with. There was a girl I knew who had a number of health problems, and nearly bleed to death (in my arms no less) because of bleeding due to her period. I asked why didn't she get her ovaries removed and it turned out no doctors would preform the procedure because she might decide to have children one day.

Yeah, I'm sorry but if you nearly bleed to death in the arms of a man you don't know from Adam than a pregnancy will kill you.

As to the OP: Thank you for sharing the story with us. Until I read it I always thought people used Abortions to avoid facing responsibility. I now know better.

 

[whatthebutlersaw]

I'm so sorry the two of you had to make such a difficult decision and go through such an ordeal just to do the responsible thing. I can't imagine what that experience would be like for someone who is not half of a dedicated couple, does not have the financial means or the possibility to have two days off and travel bizarre distances. I'm glad that, at least, was not part of your experience but I do not for a minute imagine this was in any way easy for any of you.

I am also very grateful that you have the courage to share this because as we can see in the thread, there were people - reasonable, intelligent people - who simply did not before understand what the big deal was with 24h waiting periods and required ultrasounds. Not to mention that it is my understanding that some states require, or are voting to require, mandatory counselling - not with a health professional but with a dedicated anti-choice agency.

If I edited a magazine or a paper, I would commission the OP as is.

Please relay our support and admiration to Mrs Foxholeatheist.

 

[eeyore1954]

Please learn now.

[qimg]http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/6761/babyblastocyst.jpg[/qimg]

Any questions?

I do have one question. Look at a group of pictures in between those two stages and tell me which one shows when the human life began.

 

[AdinDraco]

I do have one question. Look at a group of pictures in between those two stages and tell me which one shows when the human life began.

If I can't - then what?

A 2 year old can't drink alcohol, a 25 year old can. Where's the magic line where the person wakes up one day and can safely drink alcohol? There isn't one, so a line must be drawn that best serves everybody. Well ok, that's a sucky metaphor but I'm not well and I'm possibly missing the point of the question - what is the point you're making?

 

[Charlie Monoxide]

If abortion is murder then miscarriage is manslaughter, right?

Actually neither. It's just nature's way of dealing with an unviable fetus ......

Charlie (presumed viable) Monoxide

 

[RandFan]

I do have one question. Look at a group of pictures in between those two stages and tell me which one shows when the human life began.

I can't tell you anymore than I can't tell you at which point night ends and day begins either. It's a continuum made up of imperceptible changes. That I can't tell you doesn't mean that we can't reason extremes. 12:00 in the afternoon is day. 12:00 at night is night.

BTW: I think I know what you meant but, just in case I'm wrong, sperm IS human life. All living human cells are human life. If you don't think so tell me A.) what species other than human, human sperm is or B.) define life?

 

[RandFan]

Actually neither. It's just nature's way of dealing with an unviable fetus ......

Often no. In times of stress the body can abort to protect the mother. Also, trauma can cause the body to abort. If a woman takes unnecessary risks and causes trauma to herself and or to the fetus then it can be argued that she is at fault. It could be depraved indifference or negligence.

 

[Trakar]

Often no. In times of stress the body can abort to protect the mother. Also, trauma can cause the body to abort. If a woman takes unnecessary risks and causes trauma to herself and or to the fetus then it can be argued that she is at fault. It could be depraved indifference or negligence.

Or religion, particularly when the source of the trauma is the father of the fetus.

 

[Cleon]

I specified "western jurisdictions", because the church is aware, as we all are, that there are regimes whose court systems aren't quite as "refined" as ours are. Other than that, court convictions are used as they are a good yardstick for determining when there is sufficient cause to carry out church discipline and it keeps us from having to form a redundant church legal system to hear out every accusation.

I brought up the Mormon churches stance on abortion because, with Bob and I both being Mormons and Bob being the one talking about "murder" and "standing before God", it seemed appropriate. Bob is saying it's murder while the real answer is "not quite". There are in fact other transgressions which also result in automatic excommunication before abortion. Rape is one, that's kind of obvious. Specific cases of theft are another, primarily those involving a church officer stealing from the church itself (financial corruption scandals having plagued other religions so often, it's one thing that the church doesn't mess around with).

As to the theological issues, there is a passage in the Book of Mormon wherein Jesus is communicating with a prophet in the Americas on the eve of the first Christmas, saying "Tomorrow, come I into the world". So how is Jesus is talking to a guy in the Yucatan Peninsula while at the same time, he is just completing his gestation on the far side of the planet? Taking note of this, the Second Counselor of the Church (the number 3 man in the church hierarchy), J. Reuben Clark once said "But it seems possible that the spirit may not be present in the embryo till at least shortly before birth, whether the birth be regular or premature."

Additionally, the church accepts its members having abortions in cases of rape, incest or where the pregnancy places the life and health of the mother at risk.

I find this fascinating...This may be a wee bit OT, but what's the reason for excommunication? I mean, I know murderers are not people you generally want around, but I'd think the church would want to "preach to the fallen" and try to save their souls etc rather than booting them out of the church.

 

[godless dave]

As far as military insurance not covering abortion - I hope this wasn't a surprise to you, as this has been a big political issue in years past. IIRC women serving overseas can't even get an abortion in a military hospital if they pay for it themselves.

And thanks for sharing your story. I do consider 24-hour waiting periods an undue burden, for the reasons you mentioned.

 

[12AX7]

As someone who understands the basic science that differentiates a clump of cells from a child, and who has read your numerous posts denigrating homosexuals, I'm actually in a perfect position to make such a judgment.

It's typical of his 'kind'. You know, compassionate Christians.

the following thread is full of such hatred.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7417146#post7417146

Nice comments Bob.

You're calling ME a hate-monger?

No, I'm calling you a typical fundie; a disingenuous hypocrit. Square up this dilemma:

 

[12AX7]

By the way foxholeatheist, thank you for your service from a former 95B.

 

[RandFan]

No, I'm calling you a typical fundie; a disingenuous hypocrit. Square up this dilemma:

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums...ctures-hypocrisy-abortion-born-gay-rights.jpg

I would go much further.

Bob, will you see to it that a child born in poverty has quality health care, gets a good education, has sufficient nutrition and grows up in a safe environment?

Somehow I doubt it.

 

[Hokulele]

I specified "western jurisdictions", because the church is aware, as we all are, that there are regimes whose court systems aren't quite as "refined" as ours are. <snipped the interesting bits for brevity>

Thanks for the answer. I don't really know enough about how the church operates as a, for lack of a better term, governmental body, and was curious as to how someone from the inside viewed it.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I find this fascinating...This may be a wee bit OT, but what's the reason for excommunication? I mean, I know murderers are not people you generally want around, but I'd think the church would want to "preach to the fallen" and try to save their souls etc rather than booting them out of the church.

In the case of lesser offences it has been likened to sending a child away from the supper table because his hands are dirty. Ideally, you go wash your hands and come back and eat your supper with your family. I know a guy who was excommunicated once and today he is back to full membership in the church. Excommunication is used a lot more sparingly today than it has been in the past.

The premeditated shedding of human blood, however, is something that we don't believe can be atoned for on this side of the veil.

Thanks for the answer. I don't really know enough about how the church operates as a, for lack of a better term, governmental body, and was curious as to how someone from the inside viewed it.

My intent was to get Bob to call off his forum-jihad, which he appears to have done. But you're welcome.

 

[foxholeatheist]

I believe 24 hours and two visits is actually pretty quick compared to other procedures. For instance, if you went to the dentist for a simple cavity you'd have one visit for X-rays and the poking around, and if you're lucky 24 hours later you could have it filled.

<snip>

I would agree but this is not a surgical procedure. Using the cavity example, that would require radiological work, local infiltration of anesthetic, preparation of the amalgam and then the actual procedure. An early term abortion is much more streamlined. It is more along the lines of a consult with a provider and 'take two and call me in the morning'.

Pregnancy can be reasonably confirmed through a simple blood or urine test. Our lab at the clinic I work at can have CBC's, HCG, and Chem 14 panel results in an hour or so. Which is excellent considering it's a military facility handling several thousand tests a day.

As far as military insurance not covering abortion - I hope this wasn't a surprise to you, as this has been a big political issue in years past. IIRC women serving overseas can't even get an abortion in a military hospital if they pay for it themselves.

And thanks for sharing your story. I do consider 24-hour waiting periods an undue burden, for the reasons you mentioned.

You know, I never gave it much thought really. I didn't expect the process to cost 500$ of which, only 35$ was reimbursable, the cost of the sonogram. I didn't even go through with the paperwork required because I don't need my higher chain of command asking questions about it which was brought up to me by one of the PAs I work for. You'd think that it would fall under HIPPA and be protected information however the units do have access to this information because it can affect unit readiness.

Accessibility to care and a lack of clear communication is the issue to me.

Again ya'll thanks for all your kind words and support, I really mean that.

 

[Bill Thompson]

How is it your personal experience?

 

[DC]

How is it your personal experience?

you will realize it once you are living in a relationship.

 

[RandFan]

How is it your personal experience?

you will realize it once you are living in a relationship.

 

[Aardvark422]

As far as military insurance not covering abortion - I hope this wasn't a surprise to you, as this has been a big political issue in years past. IIRC women serving overseas can't even get an abortion in a military hospital if they pay for it themselves.

And thanks for sharing your story. I do consider 24-hour waiting periods an undue burden, for the reasons you mentioned.

I would agree but this is not a surgical procedure. Using the cavity example, that would require radiological work, local infiltration of anesthetic, preparation of the amalgam and then the actual procedure. An early term abortion is much more streamlined. It is more along the lines of a consult with a provider and 'take two and call me in the morning'.

Pregnancy can be reasonably confirmed through a simple blood or urine test. Our lab at the clinic I work at can have CBC's, HCG, and Chem 14 panel results in an hour or so. Which is excellent considering it's a military facility handling several thousand tests a day.



You know, I never gave it much thought really. I didn't expect the process to cost 500$ of which, only 35$ was reimbursable, the cost of the sonogram. I didn't even go through with the paperwork required because I don't need my higher chain of command asking questions about it which was brought up to me by one of the PAs I work for. You'd think that it would fall under HIPPA and be protected information however the units do have access to this information because it can affect unit readiness.

Accessibility to care and a lack of clear communication is the issue to me.

Again ya'll thanks for all your kind words and support, I really mean that.

My heart goes out to you and your wife. I wish you both peace with your decision.

I had an experience a few years back that might show just how far military medical will go so as to not appear to be performing abortions. I had a missed miscarriage that was discovered when I went in for what I thought would be a routine 13 wk sonogram. The technician noticed immediately that development was only around 5 wks. I was told that my dates could be off, but to be sure they would have to check my HCG and schedule me for another sonogram the next week. For four weeks I went back for bloodwork and ultrasounds, each week showing no further development and falling HCG levels. I was told that any assistance, such as a D&C would be considered abortion if there was not clear medical evidence of a miscarriage. I was told the best I could hope for for the foreseeable future would be to spontaneously miscarry at home. Finally around the fifth week I was offered a D&C as I was starting to show signs of infection. The waiting, the uncertainty, everything was awful, and it was only drug out so long because of the hoops the Naval Medical Center had to jump through so as not to appear to be giving me an abortion.