Abortion In The News

Luke T. said:


That is a strange outlook. Motherhood as punishment. It is a gift. A very precious one which many who can't have kids will tell you.

Sex has consequences. Can't get around that. And the consequences weren't determined by man's laws. It has been determined by nature.

Abortion has consequences, too. You would transfer the consequences of a woman's "fooling around" to a completely innocent person.

It's not a strange outlook; merely an alien one for you. Just as you, LukeT, don't dictate what the meaning of motherhood to me, the government does not dictate what constitutes a life to me. Motherhood might be a gift to you; to many it is. It's something open and subject to interpretation. For me, motherhood would be a potential death sentence; in my entire life, I would have seen it as a burden, I would not see it as an "innocent life" but a parasite, a leech, not a blessing or any sort.

You're using a fallacy by invoking nature.

Abortion has consequences? Yes, so does going through a full pregnancy. I could die myself LukeT. I could snap and go psychotic post- partum and kill the viable human being.

You want back alley abortions? So what happens if someone you love has a non-viable fetus? No abortion to save your loved one's life LukeT. That fetus die in utero? Too bad. That fetus going to die right after it's born? Well it's still a lifetime, right, so long as it gets it's 5 minutes of rescucitation I guess it's okay with LukeT...?

For you, LukeT, it's okay to put a fetus' life over a viable adult's, but it's not okay to put a viable adult over a fetus, an "unborn", even a blastocyte, which is a collection of cells even. Because the fetus is innocent? And yet you'd deny abortion to rape victims and incest victims, since you want them to go back-alley. Who decides who is innocent at that point? Not you LukeT... slippery slope in action, you merely warned suspension on someone who threatened to shoot someone else on this board, but you'll condemn all abortions for your gut feeling?
 
CFLarsen said:
Really? Why? People were very good at keeping such scandals secret.

Common sense, Claus. A million abortions a year? Kept secret?

Well, since you don't have any data from days of yonder we can look at... :) Do you agree that the social stigma in earlier days was quite devastating?

There was also a social stigma attached to being a single mother. That stigma is gone.

Whoa, BAD skeptic! You can't do the math like that.

Again, common sense, Claus. Either most women have had an abortion, or many have multiple abortions.

But if common sense isn't good enough, then a quick look around the net will answer it for you. For instance, here.

The Voice: Do you have many repeat clients?

Downtown Women's Center: It is fairly common to have more than one abortion.


Maybe you should explain that concept to women who have an abortion, or especially multiple abortions. That seems to be their idea of birth control.

Here are some more consequences of sex for you to consider.

It takes two, Luke. And there are plenty of birth control methods to choose from, for both parties.

It only takes one to end the life the two created.
 
Luke T. said:
Common sense, Claus. A million abortions a year? Kept secret?

Luke, you don't really believe that people had less sex in olden days, do you? Add to that, less contraception. What do you get?

Also, the million corresponds to a population of 280 million. The population has not been 280 million during that time. So, the number would naturally be somewhat lower.

Luke T. said:
There was also a social stigma attached to being a single mother. That stigma is gone.

Not everywhere; Try being a young pregnant girl in the Bible Belt. However, the social stigma for girls who got pregnant was quite devastating - do you agree with that?

Luke T. said:
Again, common sense, Claus. Either most women have had an abortion, or many have multiple abortions.

No, what I meant was: The population hasn't always been 280 million during that time frame. You can't add the number of abortions over a prolonged time frame, and then compare it to the population today.

Do you have any numbers on abortion at all?

Luke T. said:
But if common sense isn't good enough, then a quick look around the net will answer it for you. For instance, here.

I was hoping for some nationwide statistics...

Luke T. said:
Maybe you should explain that concept to women who have an abortion, or especially multiple abortions. That seems to be their idea of birth control.

WHAAT?? Luke, you are not serious!! :eek: Do you have any numbers - not opinions?

Luke T. said:
Here are some more consequences of sex for you to consider.

It's an AIDS site, Luke. That deals with having unprotected sex, not just having sex.

Luke T. said:
It only takes one to end the life the two created.

It seems to me that you place all responsibility on the mother?
 
Suezoled said:


It's not a strange outlook; merely an alien one for you. Just as you, LukeT, don't dictate what the meaning of motherhood to me, the government does not dictate what constitutes a life to me.

So you are okay with aborting a 38 week fetus? Because the governments says you can't, that it is a life.

Motherhood might be a gift to you; to many it is. It's something open and subject to interpretation. For me, motherhood would be a potential death sentence; in my entire life, I would have seen it as a burden, I would not see it as an "innocent life" but a parasite, a leech, not a blessing or any sort.

You're using a fallacy by invoking nature.

Nature says if you have sex, you can get pregnant. Sorry.

And I'm sorry you see children from such a hateful perspective.

Abortion has consequences? Yes, so does going through a full pregnancy. I could die myself LukeT. I could snap and go psychotic post- partum and kill the viable human being.

You could die, could snap. I could get run over by a car today, should I never leave the house? Abortion is a certainty.

You want back alley abortions?

A nice threat. We'll kill ourselves if you don't let us kill our babies. How sympathetic should I be to that?

Obviously, if there were greater risks with these back alley abortions, then less abortions would occur. Because then a mother really, really would be taking her own life in her hands instead of in some imaginary argument to preserve legal abortion. Kind of level the playing field between her and the fetus for real.

So what happens if someone you love has a non-viable fetus? No abortion to save your loved one's life LukeT. That fetus die in utero? Too bad. That fetus going to die right after it's born? Well it's still a lifetime, right, so long as it gets it's 5 minutes of rescucitation I guess it's okay with LukeT...?

Where have you gotten the idea I would not be in favor of removing a dead fetus from the mother?

For you, LukeT, it's okay to put a fetus' life over a viable adult's, but it's not okay to put a viable adult over a fetus, an "unborn", even a blastocyte, which is a collection of cells even. Because the fetus is innocent? And yet you'd deny abortion to rape victims and incest victims, since you want them to go back-alley. Who decides who is innocent at that point? Not you LukeT... slippery slope in action, you merely warned suspension on someone who threatened to shoot someone else on this board, but you'll condemn all abortions for your gut feeling?

How often is a mother's life truly in danger anymore, Suezoled? And "danger" and "life threatening" doesn't mean certain death these days anymore either.

My wife had something called pre-eclampsia during her pregnancy. It used to be called toxcemia. Very hazardous to the mother. I suppose some pro-abortionists would be all over that and say it justifies terminating the pregnancy. Fortunately, my wife is made of tougher stuff. She was hospitalized for as long as possible, and then labor was induced. We have two beautiful twins as a result.

My wife suffered terribly. Terribly. She was in the hospital for weeks afterwards. But she will tell you she'd do it again in a second.

In fact, we found out she was pregnant again four months later. We were in no way prepared for that. We didn't want another baby. We were as exhausted as two people can be with the twins. My wife's emotional health was past its limit. She had post-partum psychosis from hell. She has only recently opened up to me the terrible things taking place in her mind back then even though she was on medication for it, and it made my hair stand on end. But again, abortion was not an option for either one of us.

Then I received the wonderful news I was being laid off. Two newborns and a pregnant wife. We then began a life living on government cheese. Dark days in a state with the nation's highest unemployment rate.

I busted my ass getting another job. I finally got one at far less pay than my last one.

Our new baby is five months old. I have had to refinance our house, and every payday I have to decide which bills get paid and which ones don't. Getting a meal from Burger King is a major financial decision. In fact, I haven't eaten there since I can't remember when. The tires on my vehicle are bald, and I live in a very rainy state and it is an hour drive each way to work every day. I can't afford life insurance.

So don't talk to me or my wife about hardship being a good excuse to abort.

When I look at our new baby girl, all these worries leave my mind. Because every time I make eye contact with her, her whole body smiles. Her arms and legs scrunch up, her faces scrunches up, and her mouth gives me a gigantic toothless smile. Her eyes shine as bright as floodlights down to the bottom of my soul. This doesn't make me feel like a real man. It makes me feel small. It makes me feel like a wobbling water balloon.

Our daughter used to make a face when I would rub her fuzzy little head. But she is used to it now, and she has to be, because I can't stop myself. I have practiced and practiced to learn how to coax belly laughs from her and her big brother and sister. I am a world champion laugh-evoker with kids now. So who gives a flying frig about Burger King?
 
Originally posted by yahweh:
Even if a woman has sex for fun and finds herself pregnant, I could never imagine anyone saying "Well that's what she gets for fooling around, now she must suffer the consequences". That vindictive, self-righteous attitude stems from a belief that sex is bad and must be punished. Motherhood should never be punishment for having sex. Forcing a child to be born to punish its mother is the ultimate in child abuse.

Sex isn't bad, nor should it be "punished", but it's a plain and unavoidable biological fact that sex can result in babies. If you choose to "fool around" then you must be aware of all the consequences and be prepared to face them if needs be. Put it this way, if I as a man chose to fool around and in the process got someone pregnant, would I get off paying maintainence if I told the Judge that to do so would be an unjust punishment?

Originally posted by Cf Larsen:
Almost 60% more abortions per capita in the US than Denmark.

Why so many in the US? We have completely free abortion here, have had it for 30 years. Add to that, a much more relaxed attitude towards sex.

Originally posted by Plindboe:
Good point. The funny thing is that the number of abortions dropped significantly after we got free abortion, and it has been dropping ever since.

Maybe demographics is the key. Perhaps the US has per capita 60% more women of childbearing age than Denmark. Possibly a significant drop in abortions in Denmark over the past three decades correlates with a declining birth rate overall, translating into a declining cohort of women capable of childbirth.

Since Luke is ploughing a lonely furrow here I'll weigh in and give him my broad support. I just don't feel comfortable with abortion on demand. Yes I can see the point about victims of rape and incest. But I think the use of abortion has gone beyond what it's proponents originally claimed. Rather than being a means of eliminating back street abortions (the prevalence of which is in doubt) it seems to be used as a decadent means of birth control. I'd agree with Luke when he says that the social mores that would have driven women to the back street abortionists no longer exist. In short, my conscience brings me down on the pro-life argument.
 
Shane Costello, Luke,

We have to see real numbers that says that women are using abortion as a contraceptive.

Right?
 
Luke T. said:


So you are okay with aborting a 38 week fetus? Because the governments says you can't, that it is a life.


yes, actually, I am. Because the life that is established takes precedence over any potential life.
Nature says if you have sex, you can get pregnant. Sorry.

And I'm sorry you see children from such a hateful perspective.
Nature also says if I am raped I can get pregnant, though as a man you would suffer the same trauma but not the possible same result. And I don't hate children. I said I saw my own *motherhood* as a curse and a parasite. I like children; wanted children are the best. I've seen unwanted children; I've ached for them; but I guess any life is better from LukeT's prospective?
You could die, could snap. I could get run over by a car today, should I never leave the house? Abortion is a certainty.
No LukeT, I am far more likely to snap and lash out. I recognize that in me; I am not proud of it, but I don't brush it off as easily as you do. I am also far more likely to die in pregnancy, if I can get pregnant at all.

A nice threat. We'll kill ourselves if you don't let us kill our babies. How sympathetic should I be to that?
Obviously your sympathies mean nothing to me. The reality is, you want a fairly safe and regulated medical procedure to go back underground where people are risking their lives again.

Obviously, if there were greater risks with these back alley abortions, then less abortions would occur. Because then a mother really, really would be taking her own life in her hands instead of in some imaginary argument to preserve legal abortion. Kind of level the playing field between her and the fetus for real.
Where have you gotten the idea I would not be in favor of removing a dead fetus from the mother?
Oh, okay, aborting a dead cluster of cells or fetus (yes, it's actually called a "missed abortion" in medical terms) is okay under LukeT's terms.


How often is a mother's life truly in danger anymore, Suezoled? And "danger" and "life threatening" doesn't mean certain death these days anymore either.
Is it just life threatening? No; some people abuse the system of medical practice such as abortion; I honestly think, from what I have seen and read and who I have spoken with, most abortions are not done without the patient's consideration.
(personal anecdote snipped)

So don't talk to me or my wife about hardship being a good excuse to abort.

(snipped more personal anecdote, as it is irrelevent to the actual debate and only shows LukeT once again arguing from a non critical thinking perspective)

Don't strawman me LukeT; I never said a d@mn thing about hardship; your mother made her choice, you and your wife made your mutual decision. You've already made your decision, and anything else to you would be an excuse, it seems.
Yet you would deny it to others; that same choice of going through with risky pregnancy.
You are anti-choice. I respect that. But your appeal to emotions don't help your position.
 
CFLarsen said:
Luke, you don't really believe that people had less sex in olden days, do you? Add to that, less contraception. What do you get?

More babies?

Do you have any numbers on abortion at all?


I was hoping for some nationwide statistics...

Survey.

Percentage that had one abortion, 73%. Two, 17.8%. Three, 5%.
Four or more, 3.5%.

Interesting questions in Section 3 of the survey about the emotional and physical consequences of their abortions.

A health source.

A significant number of women who experience pregnancy loss have had multiple induced abortions. [/b]

Here is an article based on an Alan Guttmacher Institute report. The AGI is an arm of Planned Parenthood, I believe.

47% of abortions are performed on women who have already had one or more abortions.

So like I said, common sense, and an easy search around the net will verify a lot of women have had multiple abortions. You can find sources both pro- and anti-abortion which confirm it.

There were even more sources I came across which show that multiple abortions have some pretty serious health consequences for the woman. I guess they are putting their lives at risk by having abortions, eh?

It's an AIDS site, Luke. That deals with having unprotected sex, not just having sex.

Sexual consequences, nonetheless. And protected sex is no guarantee against AIDS or pregnancy.

It seems to me that you place all responsibility on the mother?

The law has placed all responsibility for abortion on the mother, yes.
 
Suezoled said:

Don't strawman me LukeT; I never said a d@mn thing about hardship; your mother made her choice, you and your wife made your mutual decision. You've already made your decision, and anything else to you would be an excuse, it seems.
Yet you would deny it to others; that same choice of going through with risky pregnancy.
You are anti-choice. I respect that. But your appeal to emotions don't help your position.

You had your own appeal to emotion by saying you would snap if you had a kid. If you know this ahead of time, why don't you get your tubes tied? Why take a chance?
 
Luke T. said:


You had your own appeal to emotion by saying you would snap if you had a kid. If you know this ahead of time, why don't you get your tubes tied? Why take a chance?

It's not an appeal to emotion; I do have a higher tendency. In fact, women in general might have this tendency, but I guess if the baby is born it doesn't matter if the woman who bore it is suffering.
[derail]

As for the nosy personal question of why I don't get my tubes tied? I've tried. I've gone to 3 doctors. Each of them have refused. It's not so easy LukeT. I can't get my tubes tied because doctors don't want a "I regret my decision" lawsuit on their hands. They don't want to take away that potential I would change my mind later. The doctors are afraid I'm too young to make such a life altering decision, though nevermind pregnancy and abortion are also life altering. No, I'm having a hard time finding someone who will tie my tubes or Essure me; and even those processes are not gauranteed; every person who has researched voluntary sterilization knows this for a fact.
[/derail]
 
Luke T. said:
More babies?

Well, more pregnancies.

Luke T. said:
Survey.

Percentage that had one abortion, 73%. Two, 17.8%. Three, 5%. Four or more, 3.5%.

I don't know about you, but I don't see abortion used as a contraceptive here.

Luke T. said:
Interesting questions in Section 3 of the survey about the emotional and physical consequences of their abortions.

Which definitely speaks against women using abortion as a contraceptive.

Luke T. said:
So like I said, common sense, and an easy search around the net will verify a lot of women have had multiple abortions. You can find sources both pro- and anti-abortion which confirm it.

A "lot", Luke? When do the women have their second and third abortion? Do you think women get an abortion because it might be difficult to get contraceptives?

There is, of course, also the explanation that women get abortions for medical reasons as well. How many are those, out of the total number?

Luke T. said:
There were even more sources I came across which show that multiple abortions have some pretty serious health consequences for the woman. I guess they are putting their lives at risk by having abortions, eh?

Nobody is saying that an abortion is a totally safe medical procedure - no medical procedures are.

Luke T. said:
Sexual consequences, nonetheless. And protected sex is no guarantee against AIDS or pregnancy.

No, but it sure as heck lowers the chance!! Are you saying "no sex at all"?

Luke T. said:
The law has placed all responsibility for abortion on the mother, yes.

I did ask the law. I asked you.


I noticed that the average number of weeks a woman was pregnant before she got an abortion was 9.6% - which tells us that the average woman discovers she has missed her period, and gets an abortion pronto. Only 4% carries longer than 20 weeks, which - and I am only guessing here - would probably mean those pregnancies that are terminated for medical reasons.

I was, however, puzzled over this question: "Have you ever had a waking or sleeping visitation from the aborted child?" 17.7% said "Yes" - are we talking something like Alien Abductions here?? Hmmm....
 
Well, my wife just read this topic from home. We just talked on the the phone and she says I need to stop talking about it before I make some enemies. And then she dared me to tell you guys she said that...

*sigh*

Hope I'm not too late.
 
Enemies? What are you - well, she - talking about? We are debating, facts are flying around our ears....

Be careful what you let your wife read! :D
 
Originally posted by CF Larsen:
We have to see real numbers that says that women are using abortion as a contraceptive.

Right?

Not necessarily. The numbers in themselves don't tell us anything about the motivation behind the terminations. But since the overall number of births in the US is 4 million, I can't see how every fifth pregnancy would have to be aborted on health or other grounds.
 
CFLarsen said:
Enemies? What are you - well, she - talking about? We are debating, facts are flying around our ears....

Be careful what you let your wife read! :D

My wife knows me all too well. The biggest danger for me with this topic is making an enemy of myself. I have always lived to regret my judgmentalism. I don't know if that makes sense to you, but my wife was right to stop me.
 
Originally posted by CF LArsen:
Shane Costello,

That's what I meant: Numbers about the motivation.

Here's what I mean. Given the advancements in medical technology and change in social attitudes, what possible reason is there for every fifth pregnancy to end in abortion? I don't think it is unreasonable to conclude that abortion is being used as a means of contraception.
 
Luke T. said:


Actually, I really am interested in knowing the technical questions of Roe v. Wade and how it was determined when a fetus is a human and and when it isn't and therefore okay to abort.

...

I truly do not understand these questions about roe v. wade, though, and what sort of legal wrangling was used to draw the line of when life begins, and what sort of legal foundation it is based on. Rock or sand?

From the opinion:

A. The appellee and certain amici argue that the fetus is a "person" within the language and meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. In support of this, they outline at length and in detail the well-known facts of fetal development. If this suggestion of personhood is established, the appellant's case, of course, collapses, for the fetus' right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the Amendment. The appellant conceded as much on reargument. 51 On the other hand, the appellee conceded on reargument 52 that no case could be cited that holds that a fetus is a person within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment.




The Constitution does not define "person" in so many words. Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment contains three references to "person." The first, in defining "citizens," speaks of "persons born or naturalized in the United States." The word also appears both in the Due Process Clause and in the Equal Protection Clause. "Person" is used in other places in the Constitution: in the listing of qualifications for Representatives and Senators, Art. I, § 2, cl. 2, and § 3, cl. 3; in the Apportionment Clause, Art. I, § 2, cl. 3; 53 in the Migration and Importation provision, Art. I, § 9, cl. 1; in the Emolument Clause, Art. I, § 9, cl. 8; in the Electors provisions, Art. II, § 1, cl. 2, and the superseded cl. 3; in the provision outlining qualifications for the office of President, Art. II, § 1, cl. 5; in the Extradition provisions, Art. IV, § 2, cl. 2, and the superseded Fugitive Slave Clause 3; and in the Fifth, Twelfth, and Twenty-second Amendments, as well as in §§ 2 and 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. But in nearly all these instances, the use of the word is such that it has application only postnatally. None indicates, with any assurance, that it has any possible pre-natal application. 54



All this, together with our observation, supra, that throughout the major portion of the 19th century prevailing legal abortion practices were far freer than they are today, persuades us that the word "person," as used in the Fourteenth Amendment, does not include the unborn. 55 This is in accord with the results reached in those few cases where the issue has been squarely presented. McGarvey v. Magee-Womens Hospital, 340 F.Supp. 751 (WD Pa. 1972); Byrn v. New York City Health & Hospitals Corp., 31 N. Y. 2d 194, 286 N. E. 2d 887 (1972), appeal docketed, No. 72-434; Abele v. Markle, 351 F.Supp. 224 (Conn. 1972), appeal docketed, No. 72-730. Cf. Cheaney v. State, Ind., at , 285 N. E. 2d, at 270; Montana v. Rogers, 278 F.2d 68, 72 (CA7 1960), aff'd sub nom. Montana v. Kennedy, 366 U.S. 308 (1961); Keeler v. Superior Court, 2 Cal. 3d 619, 470 P. 2d 617 (1970); State v. Dickinson, 28 Ohio St. 2d 65, 275 N. E. 2d 599 (1971). Indeed, our decision in United States v. Vuitch, 402 U.S. 62 (1971), inferentially is to the same effect, for we there would not have indulged in statutory interpretation favorable to abortion in specified circumstances if the necessary consequence was the termination of life entitled to Fourteenth Amendment protection.



This conclusion, however, does not of itself fully answer the contentions raised by Texas, and we pass on to other considerations.


B. The pregnant woman cannot be isolated in her privacy. She carries an embryo and, later, a fetus, if one accepts the medical definitions of the developing young in the human uterus. See Dorland's Illustrated Medical Dictionary 478-479, 547 (24th ed. 1965). The situation therefore is inherently different from marital intimacy, or bedroom possession of obscene material, or marriage, or procreation, or education, with which Eisenstadt and Griswold, Stanley, Loving, Skinner, and Pierce and Meyer were respectively concerned. As we have intimated above, it is reasonable and appropriate for a State to decide that at some point in time another interest, that of health of the mother or that of potential human life, becomes significantly involved. The woman's privacy is no longer sole and any right of privacy she possesses must be measured accordingly.


Texas urges that, apart from the Fourteenth Amendment, life begins at conception and is present throughout pregnancy, and that, therefore, the State has a compelling interest in protecting that life from and after conception. We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer.



It should be sufficient to note briefly the wide divergence of thinking on this most sensitive and difficult question. There has always been strong support for the view that life does not begin until live birth. This was the belief of the Stoics. 56 It appears to be the predominant, though not the unanimous, attitude of the Jewish faith. 57 It may be taken to represent also the position of a large segment of the Protestant community, insofar as that can be ascertained; organized groups that have taken a formal position on the abortion issue have generally regarded abortion as a matter for the conscience of the individual and her family. 58 As we have noted, the common law found greater significance in quickening. Physicians and their scientific colleagues have regarded that event with less interest and have tended to focus either upon conception, upon live birth, or upon the interim point at which the fetus becomes "viable," that is, potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid. 59 Viability is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks. 60 The Aristotelian theory of "mediate animation," that held sway throughout the Middle Ages and the Renaissance in Europe, continued to be official Roman Catholic dogma until the 19th century, despite opposition to this "ensoulment" theory from those in the Church who would recognize the existence of life from the moment of conception. 61 The latter is now, of course, the official belief of the Catholic Church. As one brief amicus discloses, this is a view strongly held by many non-Catholics as well, and by many physicians. Substantial problems for precise definition of this view are posed, however, by new embryological data that purport to indicate that conception is a "process" over time, rather than an event, and by new medical techniques such as menstrual extraction, the "morning-after" pill, implantation of embryos, artificial insemination, and even artificial wombs. 62




In areas other than criminal abortion, the law has been reluctant to endorse any theory that life, as we recognize it, begins before live birth or to accord legal rights to the unborn except in narrowly defined situations and except when the rights are contingent upon live birth. For example, the traditional rule of tort law denied recovery for prenatal injuries even though the child was born alive. 63 That rule has been changed in almost every jurisdiction. In most States, recovery is said to be permitted only if the fetus was viable, or at least quick, when the injuries were sustained, though few courts have squarely so held. 64 In a recent development, generally opposed by the commentators, some States permit the parents of a stillborn child to maintain an action for wrongful death because of prenatal injuries. 65 Such an action, however, would appear to be one to vindicate the parents' interest and is thus consistent with the view that the fetus, at most, represents only the potentiality of life. Similarly, unborn children have been recognized as acquiring rights or interests by way of inheritance or other devolution of property, and have been represented by guardians ad litem. 66 Perfection of the interests involved, again, has generally been contingent upon live birth. In short, the unborn have never been recognized in the law as persons in the whole sense.

http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/Roe/index.html
 
Luke T. said:
To many people, there is a higher Law than the law of where they live.
Indeed. However, the Laws of Physics don't seem to prevent abortion.

Does someone who is sleeping have a personality? Does someone in a coma? A chicken has a personality, but I can still kill it.
Does intelligence matter? If a chicken is stupid enough to kill, does that mean I should be able to kill you without consequences? What about earthworms?
 
Wrath of the Swarm said:
Indeed. However, the Laws of Physics don't seem to prevent abortion.

[/b] Does intelligence matter? If a chicken is stupid enough to kill, does that mean I should be able to kill you without consequences? What about earthworms? [/B]

Hey, it was plindboe's definition of a "person," not mine, or the dictionary. I guess you didn't read the entire topic, but thank you for supporting my point.

By the way, have you made it a personal goal to piss off everyone on this forum one at a time? If so, you will have to try harder with me.
 

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