"Abortion Doctor" Murdered

[Skeptic Ginger]

First off, I'd rather you not call them my colleagues. .....

I think you misunderstood my post which was intended to be a general comment, not a comment specific to your individual experience.

And you implied you were no longer a Christian. Perhaps I misunderstood that? Why would you think my comments applied to an ex-Christian?

And as for colleagues, I meant from one congregation to another, not the people you were describing you went to church with in the past.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Pierce and Salinger wrote fiction novels. Your analogy fails big time making this a straw man argument. No one has said people are responsible for single expressions of fiction or beliefs.

Not so much. I believe the Bible is fiction.

And I wasn't making an argument per se. I'm actually on your side of this issue, up to the point where I think you believe Christians are somehow obligated to take preemptive action or pepper their sermons with disclaimers. I was drawing a comparison. McVeigh took to The Turner Diaries the way that anti-abortion extremists take to the Bible. By that I mean reading allegory as instruction, misreading analogies as absolute literal truth. Perhaps this doesn't hold so true in McVeigh's case, since it's pretty obvious what The Turner Diaries is espousing - nay - practically begging for and preaching as an inevitability.

Nowhere in the Bible is there a commandment for Christians to "kill those who abort babies no matter the reason." This is a completely "human" construct, to put it into a Christian context.

If a person with mental illness, through his delusions, comes to believe that a billboard next to the interstate is admonishing him to go on a shooting spree - then I'm afraid no amount of intervention short of professional mental health care is going to stop that spiral.

There was a case down in Texas of a woman who murdered her own baby in the crib by severing its arms. She believed that God, through a television news report and her pastor, had admonished her to do so. The pastor's name was Doyle Davidson - and while certainly no saint and a bit of a creepy cult-leader figure - did not at any point explicitly tell this woman or even imply that she should murder her newborn. Not surprisingly, mental illness and several other factors played a major role.

Similar case with Andrea Yates. Although she was under the influence of a charismatic and unscrupulous pastor, he never admonished her to kill her children. She inferred that herself.

 

[oldhat]

OK, Randall Terry is officially insane.

He's basically condoning going in and shooting up churches.

You have to see this to believe it.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Not to be contrary just to be contrary, (well yes, ok, this is probably true) but the idea that one person could/should sacrifice their life so that many others might live is not unique to a religious framework or mindset. We honor this sacrificial behavior in our secular history books and culture. We raise our children on myths that support and honor the small, helpless minority over the powerful, controlling, 'wrong' majority.

It seems unfair to slather Christianity with a broad brush of blood and guilt as if the roots of human morality had some special home there. I at least, will not give that much credit to religion. Why, given the right circumstances an Atheist is perfectly capable of acting out violently as an extremist. Sure, arguably not as single-minded and unable be deterred by reason as a faith-driven true believer, but secularists can make darn good extremists.

I'm hoping repetition is actually increasing communication here and not just wasting keyboard strokes.

This is a straw man. No one, especially me, has said Christians or god beliefs were the only basis for growing extremists.

Violent extremists are fairly effective at finding support groups.

The Doctor underestimated the risk, or more likely knew the risk he faced and worked in spite of it. Killed while working unguarded in his church with his wife in the choir, I'm sorry... how quaintly naive.

Hero or villain, this tragedy seemed like a matter of time.

All the more reason people promoting god beliefs should expect nutjob problems and should take action to mitigate this known hazard of promoting religion.

 

[Arus808]

skeptigirl, you're painting a diverse group with a very large brush. Not every Christian is anti-abortion and there's a ridiculous number of sects. How can you blame such a large group for the actions of a few? By this logic, you're going to have to blame the doctor for his own death as he too was a Christian.

Do you blame all Christians for the actions of the IRA or all Muslims for the actions of al-Qaeda?

I was brought up in the Christian faith, but as I grew older, I moved over to being a Baptist.

HOwever, all of my life (basically since I learned about sex which was in the 4th grade) and learned what abortion was, I was always in favor of the woman having a choice


What people need to realize that pro-choice doesn't equal to pro-abortion. We need to get off of that.



AGAIN< despite the beliefs, A MAN murdered another man. LEAVE the rhetoric out of it until mORE is learned about the reasons why the man did it.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Not so much. I believe the Bible is fiction.

And I wasn't making an argument per se. I'm actually on your side of this issue, up to the point where I think you believe Christians are somehow obligated to take preemptive action or pepper their sermons with disclaimers. I was drawing a comparison. McVeigh took to The Turner Diaries the way that anti-abortion extremists take to the Bible. By that I mean reading allegory as instruction, misreading analogies as absolute literal truth. Perhaps this doesn't hold so true in McVeigh's case, since it's pretty obvious what The Turner Diaries is espousing - nay - practically begging for and preaching as an inevitability.

Nowhere in the Bible is there a commandment for Christians to "kill those who abort babies no matter the reason." This is a completely "human" construct, to put it into a Christian context.

If a person with mental illness, through his delusions, comes to believe that a billboard next to the interstate is admonishing him to go on a shooting spree - then I'm afraid no amount of intervention short of professional mental health care is going to stop that spiral.

There was a case down in Texas of a woman who murdered her own baby in the crib by severing its arms. She believed that God, through a television news report and her pastor, had admonished her to do so. The pastor's name was Doyle Davidson - and while certainly no saint and a bit of a creepy cult-leader figure - did not at any point explicitly tell this woman or even imply that she should murder her newborn. Not surprisingly, mental illness and several other factors played a major role.

Similar case with Andrea Yates. Although she was under the influence of a charismatic and unscrupulous pastor, he never admonished her to kill her children. She inferred that herself.

These analogies are flawed. There are some analogous bits, but not the ones that are relative.

Is there a direct connection between the mentally ill acts of Yates or Schlosser and the religious messages they misconstrued? No. These qualify as unpredictable events. The interpretation of The Turner Diaries may have even been consistent among McViegh and his friends. But someone like Richard Butler of the Aryan Nations would be more analogous than the author of The Turner Diaries.

The message being preached or written have to be expected or predictable that it would encourage a nutjob in order for the example to be analogous to what I am saying. The language of Randall Terry leaves no doubt he is inciting murder. Look at how few people within the Evangelical community are condemning the rhetoric of Randall Terry along with condemning the acts of the murderer.

Where are the Christians condemning Terry?

Here's a sampling from the top of a Google search of that question.

ChristianNewsWire

George Tiller was a Mass-Murderer, says Randall Terry -- We Grieve That he Did Not Have Time to Properly Prepare his Soul to Face God

McClatchy - Abortion foes condemn doctor's slaying, fear backlash. Lot's of condemnation of the murder. There's not one condemnation of Terry reported.

This was at least a counter nutjob message:

"This is a great evil . . . for we know that vigilantism is an act outside (God's) moral will," the Rev. Rob Schenck , the president of the National Clergy Council , said in a prayer before the news conference outside the U.S. Supreme Court building.

Anti-Abortion Groups Condemn Tiller Murder, Assess Damage to Cause

There's a comment by a reader:

Any anti-abortion organization that doesn't speak out against Terry's rhetoric is inviting the comparison.

Here's another:

Comments like Randel Terry's reflect what most prolife people are saying online. Even here people pretend to condemn the murder [then] celebrate the death and the dead man burning in hell. ...

Then you see this kind of crap:

No matter what your opinon of Mr. Terry might be, there is no excuse for blaming him for this murder. If it could be shown that Mr. Terry supplied the fellow weapons, provided plans, or some other dastardly act, matters would differ.

Fox News with another holier than thou R Terry quote:

"The pro-life movement must not be browbeaten by Obama or the child-killers into surrendering our best rhetoric, actions and images. We hold absolutely no responsibility for his death," Terry said in a written statement.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....

AGAIN< despite the beliefs, A MAN murdered another man. LEAVE the rhetoric out of it until mORE is learned about the reasons why the man did it.

We already addressed this. I think the default position is the killer was inspired by Operation Rescue. If you have evidence to the contrary feel free to enlighten us.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

I think the default position is the killer was inspired by Operation Rescue. If you have evidence to the contrary feel free to enlighten us.

Personally, I think he was more than inspired by them. The more I learn about this Terry fellow, the more I think discussion of this sort of thing was nurtured if not overtly encouraged.

They may not be completely analogous, but comparing McVeigh is easier since we know a bit more about his history. If you look at it that way, McVeigh was already well on his way towards violent extremism before he visited Elohim City or linked up with Nichols and Fortier. It seems in his case that by intentionally immersing himself in things that validated his growing extremist worldview his lashing out seemed nearly inevitable. What's really disturbing is that it's hard to pinpoint one singular event that pushed him towards what he did - Waco, Ruby Ridge, and his 1,000 dollar tax garnishment are all likely candidates.

We simply don't know enough about Scott Philip Roeder's life to pinpoint what exactly pushed him over the edge to murder. We know he had a lengthy history of being involved with anti-government groups and had a violent history. But Roeder's target was much smaller in scope, and therefore intended to send a much narrower statement. That says to me his breaking point has got to have something to do with the anti-abortion "crusade."

 

[SezMe]

Here is a somewhat dated (5 years old) and longish story of a late term abortion. It really puts a human face on the issue.

 

[ToddH]

My local television station has this story posted on their website. Read the comments at the bottom and you'll get a good idea how many (not all) Christians in my area are reacting...

http://www.13wmaz.com/news/local_story.aspx?storyid=64744

Note: I am in no way stating that a majority of Christians belive his murder was justified. But there is a very vocal minority who in fact are happy that he was killed.

 

[Whiplash]

But there is a very vocal minority who in fact are happy that he was killed.

They disgust me.

 

[Beth]

Here is a snipped from that bastion of conservatism, the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/02/us/02blame.html?ref=global-home

Burt Neuborne, a professor of law at New York University and a former legal director for the American Civil Liberties Union....“In every complex political setting, there’s a tendency to single out the loudest of the other side and claim that what they’re doing is not political speech but is incitement,” he said. “It’s important not to allow that to happen. It would have a dramatic effect on the ability to speak vigorously.”

I think he's right.

 

[Cleon]

Well, the period in which I was a Christian ranges from 1968 thru 1985, when I was a junior in high school.

You must've been a really crappy student.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Here is a snipped from that bastion of conservatism, the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/02/us/02blame.html?ref=global-home

I think he's right.

Doesn't apply in this case. Operation Rescue is calling doctors who perform abortion murderers. This is hate speech, plain and simple. It demonizes such doctors.

 

[Whiplash]

You must've been a really crappy student.

 

[Brainster]

No, we are recommending that he be brought up on charges.

And O'Reilly was not recommending that for Tiller?

 

[ToddH]

They disgust me.

Try living around and working with these people. I've never told any of them I'm an atheist so they just assume I'm one of them. I hear some absolutely vile things.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Whether or not I have the decision is not what bothers me. The lack of rights of a viable fetus does bother me.
What is it that causes it to have no rights while it is in the mother and then suddenly rights when it is born

Well, if we're going to give a fetus rights, should we start taxing them as well? How about giving them the right to vote? When does a fetus get to start drawing on Social Security? What about counting them in the census? And how would all the paperwork be adjusted to account for the switch from birthday to conception-day? Since we cannot really nail down the exact time of conception, that would make things a bit dicey...

This is what I like to call the "potential human" argument, and it is just plain silly. If we were to let logic like this govern our everyday lives, then we would award licenses to practice medicine to students just as they enter medical school, because they're all potential doctors.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Personally, I think he was more than inspired by them. The more I learn about this Terry fellow, the more I think discussion of this sort of thing was nurtured if not overtly encouraged.

I seem to recall that back in the 90s Operation Rescue and Terry were providing support networks of some kind to the more insane anti-abortion extremists. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they're starting to dust off those old tactics, and it seems to me that Terry's comments yesterday served a dual purpose:

1. To warn abortion providers that if they have violence done against them, it's basically their fault, and

2. to let the extremists know that they have a home at Operation Rescue.

 

[MattusMaximus]

My local television station has this story posted on their website. Read the comments at the bottom and you'll get a good idea how many (not all) Christians in my area are reacting...

http://www.13wmaz.com/news/local_story.aspx?storyid=64744

Note: I am in no way stating that a majority of Christians belive his murder was justified. But there is a very vocal minority who in fact are happy that he was killed.

Yup, and if the majority of Christians want to remain silent in allowing nutjobs like these and Randall Terry to hijack their religion by way of such domestic terrorism, then they need to get off their asses and start making some noise!

Thankfully, some of that is occurring... but not nearly enough, imo.