"Abortion Doctor" Murdered

[skepticalbeliever]

I think that the pro choice movement wants to scilence all opposition to abortion. Now everybody who called George Tiller a murderer is guilty of his death. But George Tiller was engaged in a practice that resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of VIABLE BABYS! There are reports that babies were born and died after suffering the consequences of botched abortions performed by him. There is evidence that he aborted VIABLE babies because of dubious mental health reasons. Thus, he would terminate a baby if a mother came in with a headache or depression.

But we are to discuss which side instigages more violence we would make a mistake in not discussing the violence that the pro choice crowd is guilty of. Look at this example, http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214328,00.html . Here we have parents forcing a child in to abortion. This goes on in every abortion clinic in america probably. But we never see any pro choice advocate propose a regulation that would prevent parents from forcing abortion on their children.

Another claim is tha Tiller and the pro abortion crowd always follow the law. That is nonsense. There are plenty of examples of planned parenthood centers refusing to report rapes to the cops in violation of the law. It seems like plannedparenthood is a rape enabler if they aren't reporting 13 year olds who show up pregnant with an older boyfriend to the cops. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,54079,00.html .

 

[BenBurch]

Skepticalbeliever, as there is clearly no such thing as a soul, and human beings are all living outside the womb, an unborn human fetus is still part of the mother, and its disposition is only her concern.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Interesting, but not surprising that this little gem has gone unnoticed or unreplied to. It's a valid point. Nothing infuriated me more in the last 8 years than constant claims of Bush being a murder, and "Bush lied, people died!". It was all rhetoric, and they knew it, and they knew damn well what they were trying to do by saying it. Stir up discontent against the administration (at the very least).

Neither side, nor any relgion, has a monopoly on polarizing, angry rhetoric designed to make people take action.

More words of wisdom. Good to see these voices in the thread

 

[MattusMaximus]

But we are to discuss which side instigages more violence we would make a mistake in not discussing the violence that the pro choice crowd is guilty of. Look at this example, http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214328,00.html . Here we have parents forcing a child in to abortion. This goes on in every abortion clinic in america probably. But we never see any pro choice advocate propose a regulation that would prevent parents from forcing abortion on their children.

Evidence? Or mere wishful thinking on your part?

And since you suddenly want to talk about violence, just to be clear, when was the last time someone on the "pro-choice" (man I hate these labels) side bombed a "pro-life" institution or shot & killed a prominent "pro-lifer" because of their opposition to legalized abortion? I'd like some hard & fast statistics on this, please.

I originally asked this question back on page 2 or 3, and I'm still waiting for an answer.

 

[MattusMaximus]

I do hope they charge this guy with terrorism. We should be writing our federal representatives to bring the issue up with federal prosecutors.

Well, hold your horses there, SG. I'm all for that, too - but first we need evidence. Don't check your critical thinking at the door.

At the same time, though, I do think that there needs to be a more concerted effort in the media to take scumbags like Randall Terry to task for his "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" kind of behavior when it comes to this kind of thing. I know he's never said for anyone to go out and kill abortion docs or bomb clinics, but he has helped to create an environment where calling them baby killers and whatnot can certainly drive the more extreme & imbalanced in the anti-abortion movement over the edge. For that, Terry needs to be taken to task, I say.

 

[MattusMaximus]

It seems the call is going out for just that! I've seen a lot of headlines and editorial/opinion pieces today about it.

Really? Can you provide some links?

Again, I agree with the charge of terrorism, if it can be shown that he was plugged into a support network. Without evidence that the shooter was actually part of a network, simply charging him with terrorism (as opposed to dealing with him like any other random murderous nut) could raise his profile to that of a martyr. Find and expose his network, then bring out the terrorism charges - it'll be more likely to stick then.

Like I said, this sort of organized domestic terrorism was exposed in the anti-abortion violence of the 90s, so I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see it coming back, especially given the current political environment & general frustration of the anti-abortion lobby with how little progress they've made by going the "change the laws" route.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Randall Terry: "Tiller got what he deserved. Now let's go get some hot wings and beer."





This man is scum.

Yup, there's that "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" b.s. that I mentioned earlier from Terry. He's kind of like those radical Islamic mullahs who use their rhetoric to lend tacit (though not explicit) support to suicide bombings, yet when it happens they are not very convincing in condemning the violence. I also like the implication that Tiller himself was responsible for his own death

ETA: Terry's message is simple here. He's saying to every abortion provider in the U.S.: "If you get killed for performing abortions, you only have yourselves to blame." This seems clearly like an attempt to scare abortion providers, to me. If the other leaders in the anti-abortion movement are smart, they'll tell Terry to shut the hell up, because I think this man is a dangerous zealot.

 

[SezMe]

I think that the pro choice movement wants to scilence all opposition to abortion. Now everybody who called George Tiller a murderer is guilty of his death. But George Tiller was engaged in a practice that resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of VIABLE BABYS! There are reports that babies were born and died after suffering the consequences of botched abortions performed by him. There is evidence that he aborted VIABLE babies because of dubious mental health reasons. Thus, he would terminate a baby if a mother came in with a headache or depression.

But we are to discuss which side instigages more violence we would make a mistake in not discussing the violence that the pro choice crowd is guilty of. Look at this example, http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214328,00.html . Here we have parents forcing a child in to abortion. This goes on in every abortion clinic in america probably. But we never see any pro choice advocate propose a regulation that would prevent parents from forcing abortion on their children.

Another claim is tha Tiller and the pro abortion crowd always follow the law. That is nonsense. There are plenty of examples of planned parenthood centers refusing to report rapes to the cops in violation of the law. It seems like plannedparenthood is a rape enabler if they aren't reporting 13 year olds who show up pregnant with an older boyfriend to the cops. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,54079,00.html .

There are reports that you have never aborted a strawman that you conceived of.

 

[oldhat]

There are reports that babies were born and died after suffering the consequences of botched abortions performed by him. There is evidence that he aborted VIABLE babies because of dubious mental health reasons. Thus, he would terminate a baby if a mother came in with a headache or depression.

Excuse me but this is a flat out lie. Tiller required a second doctor's opinion before he would perform a late term abortion and he would never perform an abortion because a woman complained of a headache. Where are you getting these bizarre lies and falsehoods from?

Can pro-lifers please stop calling blastocysts, zygotes and fetuses "babies" for the love of Gray's Anatomy?

P.S. A fetus with microencephaly or worse isn't "viable" and it's not a baby going ga-ga-goo-goo so stop using this overheated, loaded and misleading language please.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

Randall Terry: "Tiller got what he deserved. Now let's go get some hot wings and beer."


This man is scum.

Hey! Hold on there, I think that is going a bit too far.




Scum serves a purpose, and I feel that you may have unfairly labeled scum by comparing it to Randall. It is an insult to scum, and I would ask you to issue an apology on behalf of scum.

 

[MattusMaximus]

But George Tiller was engaged in a practice that resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of VIABLE BABYS! There are reports that babies were born and died after suffering the consequences of botched abortions performed by him. There is evidence that he aborted VIABLE babies because of dubious mental health reasons. Thus, he would terminate a baby if a mother came in with a headache or depression.

You know, seeing as how the former AG of Kansas hauled Tiller into court on trumped-up charges such as these, and a jury of his peers found him innocent in a court of law, seems to contradict everything you're saying here.

You seem to be displaying the same atrocious "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" rhetorical tricks that Randall Terry has been using of late. It is disgusting.

Oh yeah, and allow me second what has already been said... a fetus is not a baby. Deal with it, and take your screeching posts elsewhere.

 

[Robster FCD]

I think that the pro choice movement wants to scilence all opposition to abortion. Now everybody who called George Tiller a murderer is guilty of his death. But George Tiller was engaged in a practice that resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of VIABLE BABYS! There are reports that babies were born and died after suffering the consequences of botched abortions performed by him. There is evidence that he aborted VIABLE babies because of dubious mental health reasons. Thus, he would terminate a baby if a mother came in with a headache or depression.

I'd love to scilence people. If only I knew what that was.

You are clearly projecting the desire to silence people onto your opponents. You are free to hold your beliefs, but they harm women, forced to seek out life threatening alternatives to safe medical abortions, and you refuse to even admit that violent language could have some effect on this and other cases.

Tell ya what. Don't like abortion? Don't have one. But your superstitions should not be written into laws that have real negative effects on real people.

You certainly believe the hyperbole regarding Tiller's practice, but do you have evidence of it? A headache? Bull****. Do you have any evidence for this claim? Do you know how serious depression can be? Any idea whatsoever, how serious it can be? I'm lucky to have only experienced mild depression during my grad school years and it was hellish. I have friends how have attempted suicide, and had some that succeeded.

In this case, or in any case where the mother's health is threatened, the fetus is the enemy. Saving the mother's life is of highest importance.

How about evidence of abortions of viable fetuses? And if you do, what reason do you have for making the uterus your property by imminent domain?

But we are to discuss which side instigages more violence we would make a mistake in not discussing the violence that the pro choice crowd is guilty of. Look at this example, http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214328,00.html . Here we have parents forcing a child in to abortion. This goes on in every abortion clinic in america probably. But we never see any pro choice advocate propose a regulation that would prevent parents from forcing abortion on their children.

Perhaps you should read the article. The woman was 19. Her parents had no right to kidnap her, and they were charged as such.

Until a child passes the age of majority, s/he cannot object to any medical procedure without going to court.

Another claim is tha Tiller and the pro abortion crowd always follow the law. That is nonsense. There are plenty of examples of planned parenthood centers refusing to report rapes to the cops in violation of the law. It seems like plannedparenthood is a rape enabler if they aren't reporting 13 year olds who show up pregnant with an older boyfriend to the cops. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,54079,00.html .

Interesting, but this was a cold call fantasy study, with no examination of what the laws were in the state and if the clinics would have been in violation. Also, since the fake patient never showed up anywhere, we don't know if the phone consultation was actually a fair reflection of the clinic's policies. Without being able to see their methodology and any followup, I call lying for Jesus.

Are you serious in saying that forcing a young girl into having a child because she was raped is only allowable if the person who victimized her can be punished? You are advocating punishing the victim for not cooperating with the authorities. Classy.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Do we hold William Luther Pierce responsible for the actions of Timothy McVeigh?

How about J.D. Salinger for the actions of Mark David Chapman?

This thread is practically a case study in availiability heuristics.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Wow. I just did a google search for "tiller murder terrorism" and... damn, there are a lot of people pissed off out there. A lot.

Yikes - no wonder many in the anti-abortion movement are now on the defensive.

 

[Whiplash]

So with all that background, have you or your church brethren ever considered condemning the actions of Christians which promote abortion-is-murder sermons that are bound to incite acts of violence? I'm not talking about condemning the acts of violence. I'm talking about condemning the rhetoric which predictably sets these nutjobs off on their missions?

Well, the period in which I was a Christian ranges from 1968 thru 1985, when I was a junior in high school. I don't remember them speaking about abortion bombings or muders much. Wasn't that more of an issue in the 90's? I certainly never heard a "abortion is murder" sermon, ever. But I did see bumper stickers at times.

But I do remember teachers in school stating that violence against anyone, for any reason (even religious) was wrong, and sinful. And that God was the only one who had a right to judge. They were very big on the whole "beam in your eye" approach. Honestly. This was the pillar of their belief. That we should act as Jesus would. Help anyone in need. Not hurt others. Not steal from others. Act in kindness and for the better of the world.

I admit my school may have been atypical. But my general experience, all throughout life, has been that religious people are mostly tolerant, decent, family type / hard working people. Not bigots, or zealots. I don't think I've ever even met anyone who was anything like some you describe. I've never met one that was anything like the charlatans on TV. Every sermon I sat through was completely boring, and in no way angry or judgemental or inciting anything. Just boring. Oh, and guilt. Lots of guilt. How could I forget that?

You want me to condemn it? You bet. No problem at all. I absolutely condemn it as a terrible crime. Do you want me to get more exercised than that? I am no longer religious, and feel no obligation to take up their slack. But I'll tell you this, if the right get's in an uproar about this, I'll take them on with you guys.

More words of wisdom. Good to see these voices in the thread

Thanks Mattus!

 

[oldhat]

Militia men, radical cleric Mullah Randall Terry's sickening mug on TV, doctors being gunned down in cold blood, the "sovereign citizen" movement...the 90s called, they want their right wing terrorism back.

Do you have any idea how sick you have to be to murder someone -- in their church??

 

[Steelmage]

Bad argument. It possible to think a Fetus has rights and oppose Abotion through political.peaceful means. And heaven knows that secular political movements have their share of violent wackjobs.

It was more of a poorly written question.

 

[BTMO]

Do you have any idea how sick you have to be to murder someone -- in their church??

Nope.

Is it sicker than murdering anyone anywhere else?

 

[MattusMaximus]

Militia men, radical cleric Mullah Randall Terry's sickening mug on TV, doctors being gunned down in cold blood, the "sovereign citizen" movement...the 90s called, they want their right wing terrorism back.

Do you have any idea how sick you have to be to murder someone -- in their church??

Why should doing it in church be any worse than murdering someone anywhere else? They're just as dead.

Sorry folks - derail over.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Well, the period in which I was a Christian ranges from 1968 thru 1985, when I was a junior in high school. I don't remember them speaking about abortion bombings or muders much. Wasn't that more of an issue in the 90's? I certainly never heard a "abortion is murder" sermon, ever. But I did see bumper stickers at times.

Wasn't there a small wave of violence instigated by the World Church of the Creator and other such white supremacist organizations during that timeframe? Granted the "Christian" component of their rhetoric wasn't as incendiary as their white supremacy leanings, but I'm fairly sure that they were also pretty violently anti-abortion as well. I wish I could remember the exact name of the group, but I do remember they publicly murdered a confrontational talk radio host that happened to be Jewish.

I think Tom Metzger was associated with them to some degree.