"Abortion Doctor" Murdered

[MattusMaximus]

Well, the period in which I was a Christian ranges from 1968 thru 1985, when I was a junior in high school. I don't remember them speaking about abortion bombings or muders much. Wasn't that more of an issue in the 90's? I certainly never heard a "abortion is murder" sermon, ever. But I did see bumper stickers at times.

But I do remember teachers in school stating that violence against anyone, for any reason (even religious) was wrong, and sinful. And that God was the only one who had a right to judge. They were very big on the whole "beam in your eye" approach. Honestly. This was the pillar of their belief. That we should act as Jesus would. Help anyone in need. Not hurt others. Not steal from others. Act in kindness and for the better of the world.

I admit my school may have been atypical. But my general experience, all throughout life, has been that religious people are mostly tolerant, decent, family type / hard working people. Not bigots, or zealots. I don't think I've ever even met someone who was anything like you describe in some cases. I've never met one that was anything like the charlatans on TV. Every sermon I sat through was completely boring, and in no way angry or judgemental or inciting anything. Just boring. Oh, and guilt. Lots of guilt. How could I forget that?

I think Whip's observations here are spot on. I recall similar experiences in my upbringing... and never once was there ever a hint of this extreme anti-abortion attitude in any church I ever attended. Not once. Nor did I ever recall seeing it advertised widely in public.

But then by the 90s I was through with church, and it seems to me that during that decade the extremist side of the anti-abortion movement gained a lot more traction and started to ramp up the violence. I notice this also seems to dovetail with the rise of the religious right in the Republican party, and I cannot help but wonder if there is some connection to that.

I fear we could be seeing a repeat of those dark days. If the anti-abortion folks (the reasonable ones) are smart, they'll start to root these dangerous nuts out of their own ranks but fast. And having a number of prominent anti-abortion activists speak out publicly against Randall Terry's dangerous rhetoric would be a good start. But my fear is that too many won't speak out, for fear of offending others on their side of the ideological fence, and so the extremists will believe they have free license to continue with their violence.

ETA: I've already spoken with my checkbook. I just donated $100 to Planned Parenthood - take that Randall Terry!

 

[Whiplash]

Wasn't there a small wave of violence instigated by the World Church of the Creator and other such white supremacist organizations during that timeframe? Granted the "Christian" component of their rhetoric wasn't as incendiary as their white supremacy leanings, but I'm fairly sure that they were also pretty violently anti-abortion as well. I wish I could remember the exact name of the group, but I do remember they publicly murdered a confrontational talk radio host that happened to be Jewish.

I think Tom Metzger was associated with them to some degree.

I have to be honest, I really don't remember them outright condemning it loudly. But remember, I was in K-8 at this time. That wasn't much of a topic for kids. I was in public school after that, and attended chruch less and less as I approached 18. I insist I never heard anything that made me think in any way was inflamatory or meant to incite violence of any kind. The idea of it actually shocks me. These were some boring, clueless old white people and lots of kids.

I want to repeat, if the right takes the wrong side on this, I'll be with you guys.

 

[boloboffin]

Murdering someone in their church is more heinous than just killing them. It was just as much an attack on the church that would have Tiller as a member as it was an attack on him.

 

[Whiplash]

skeptigirl, I just want to say that, even if it's hard for you to believe, there are people in the Christian movement or who act in the name of the Christian movement that disturb and sicken many Christians every bit as much as other people. I think you have a strong tendancy to want to lump them all into one big pot of hate. There are bad people, and many of them high profile. Sure. But there are many many people who are just everyday people who are trying to live a good life, and believe in God. They really aren't out to hurt anyone. And they hate the extremists as much as anyone else.


ETA: For the record, looking into this a bit more and some of the videos, and sites, I am disgusted with what I see. I can't condemn it enough, or the people who follow these animals.

 

[MattusMaximus]

I want to repeat, if the right takes the wrong side on this, I'll be with you guys.

And if and when that time comes, we'll be happy to have you, Whip.

 

[themusicteacher]

Isn't it funny how people like Terry say that "if these abortion providers get hurt, they only have themselves to blame" but that it's unpatriotic and stupid to say that America is partially to blame for being attacked by Islamic terrorists? In what way are the two different? Oh yeah: one they're in favor of, the other they're not. Consistency is not these whackjobs strong suit.

 

[eeyore1954]

Skepticalbeliever, as there is clearly no such thing as a soul, and human beings are all living outside the womb, an unborn human fetus is still part of the mother, and its disposition is only her concern.

How are you so special to be so all knowing as to when life begins. Have you ever as a mother or father felt a baby kick or seen its' "picture" , or heard its heartbeat. I strongly believe that embryo is a human. Most parents that I know felt their baby was alive (dependent but alive). Is it only alive because it is wanted by its parents?
If an embryo is 7 months old (not a human yet according to your standard) and something goes wrong in the pregnancy and the baby is born 2 months early is it then a human? The act of being born makes it human?

Also are you sure "there is clearly no such thing as a soul".
It is the clearly part that bothers me.You can say there is no physical evidence for the existance of a soul. Or I have never seen any thing to make me believe there is a soul. But is it clear that there is no such thing?

 

[oldhat]

No one's arguing that the fetuses aren't human. And the issue isn't whether or not they're alive, it's the issue that abortions in the third trimester should not be performed for any reason whatsoever and abortion is the same thing as murder.

Tiller wasn't peforming abortions because the parents had a change of heart about raising children or it would have been too likely they would be left-handed or have red hair, he was performing abortions in cases of fetuses with severe developmental problems. Take a look:

http://tinyurl.com/l9hb4e

Admission Criteria

In order to offer you an appointment, we require that a physician refer you to our center. In addition, we need your genetic counselor or doctor to provide us with gestational and diagnostic information regarding your pregnancy. Over the past twenty-five years, we have had experience with pregnancy terminations in such situations as anencephaly, Trisomy 13, 18, and 21, polycystic kidney disease, spina bifida, hydrocephalus, Potter's syndrome, lethal dwarfism, holoprosencephaly, anterior and posterior encephalocele, non-immune hydrops, and a variety of other very significant abnormalities.

Here are links to descriptions of the conditions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anencephaly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patau_syndrome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwards_syndrome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_syndrome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycystic_kidney_disease
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spina_bifida
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocephalus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potter's_syndrome
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/53/1/76
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holoprosencephaly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encephalocele
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrops_fetalis

This isn't depraved Nazi eugenics.

Here's a question anti-abortion people have a hard time answering: What should the penalty be if abortion is made illegal and the woman doesn't go through with a forced pregnancy (and let's not mince words, that's what you want)? Jail? A fine? Should the doctor go to jail? What penalties do you propose?

For the record, I am an atheist but I believe that people do have something like a soul but not in a ghost-goes-up-to-Heaven sense. I also feel life is precious and the decision to perform an abortion on a fetus with one of these conditions is a solemn one and one that no mother (or father for that matter) would ever make lightly.

Murdering someone in their church is more heinous than just killing them. It was just as much an attack on the church that would have Tiller as a member as it was an attack on him.

I agree 100%. To me, there's something extra sickening about a so-called "Christian" killing a man in a house of worship in front of his fellow churchgoers, even if you think the idea of a house of worship is silly.

 

[Brainster]

So once again if a liberal says that Bush is a murderer, he's inciting people to kill Bush, right?

 

[Whiplash]

Here's a question anti-abortion people have a hard time answering: What should the penalty be if abortion is made illegal and the woman doesn't go through with a forced pregnancy (and let's not mince words, that's what you want)? Jail? A fine? Should the doctor go to jail? What penalties do you propose?

I'd gather all the most hardend, angry, reactionary members I could find for a good stoning, old school style.

Then I'd get them all stoned, and tell them to lighten the **** up and worry about their own lives and leave judgements in the hands of God, where it belongs.

Then I'd probably run.

 

[boloboffin]

So once again if a liberal says that Bush is a murderer, he's inciting people to kill Bush, right?

No, we are recommending that he be brought up on charges.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think that the pro choice movement wants to scilence all opposition to abortion. Now everybody who called George Tiller a murderer is guilty of his death. But George Tiller was engaged in a practice that resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of VIABLE BABYS! There are reports that babies were born and died after suffering the consequences of botched abortions performed by him. There is evidence that he aborted VIABLE babies because of dubious mental health reasons. Thus, he would terminate a baby if a mother came in with a headache or depression.

Pure bull crap. You and the rest of your kind are totally ignorant of the facts and that is part of the problem. You listen to the rhetoric and don't spend 5 minutes actually looking to see if what you are being told about the kind of abortions Dr Tiller was preforming was actually true. You just assume in your medical ignorance the crap you've been told.

Dr. George Tiller (1941-2009): Murdered Abortion Provider Remembered for Lifelong Dedication to Women’s Reproductive Health

And here, Dr. Tiller followed the law. He was investigated repeatedly, and he didn’t do—all these clips, which says he’s wantonly doing things, it wasn’t true. He was doing it because it was necessary for the life and health of the women. And he was a very careful physician.

We have a fairytale going on, Amy, that there aren’t troubled pregnancies, that every fetus has a brain. I mean, he—some did not. What I mean that is they don’t have a well—they don’t have a head that’s developed. To carry that to term would only hurt the woman. We pretend that women don’t have cancer when they’re pregnant and that the carrying it to term will kill her.

We pretend—I’ll never forget him telling me about a woman who he brought—had to fly in from Manhattan. She was a doctor’s wife, and yet she had a fetus that was growing a tumor that would not only kill her, it would kill the fetus. And there was no—there was no possibility of survival, but he saved her. Why, in a civilized society, would it be necessary to fly her in from Manhattan?

We have allowed ideologues to ignorantly discuss these things, and we have to have doctors—and he did. That speech he gave was to—in our group was to our campus group. And he tried—he had film, slides. He tried to explain what all the medical reasons are for these terminations.

And I really feel we need an education in this country, so that commentators [reference is to O'Reilly spiel about Dr Tiller] who—you know, that was really a diatribe against then-Governor Sebelius. It wasn’t really about what a medical reason for abortion is. We’ve got to take this out of the political arena. And more doctors and nurses have to stand forth and say why this is necessary for women’s survival and health....

Do you seriously believe making abortion illegal and murdering health care providers is the only way or even the best way to actually prevent abortions?

The anti-abortion activists have such narrow minds. The motto/goal of many pro-choice advocates is to 'make abortion safe, legal, and RARE'. Is the only way you think you can decrease abortions is to murder doctors, blow up clinics and overturn Roe V Wade? When abortions were illegal, did they stop? No, in fact, even more people died. Maternal mortality results in over half a million deaths in the world every year and unsafe abortions account for 13% of those deaths.

Why do so many women still die in pregnancy or childbirth?

A: Every minute, at least one woman dies from complications related to pregnancy or childbirth – that means 529 000 women a year. In addition, for every woman who dies in childbirth, around 20 more suffer injury, infection or disease – approximately 10 million women each year.

Five direct complications account for more than 70% of maternal deaths: haemorrhage (25%), infection (15%), unsafe abortion (13%), eclampsia (very high blood pressure leading to seizures – 12%), and obstructed labour (8%). While these are the main causes of maternal death, unavailable, inaccessible, unaffordable, or poor quality care is fundamentally responsible. They are detrimental to social development and wellbeing, as some one million children are left motherless each year. These children are 10 times more likely to die within two years of their mothers' death.

But we are to discuss which side instigages more violence we would make a mistake in not discussing the violence that the pro choice crowd is guilty of. Look at this example, http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214328,00.html . Here we have parents forcing a child in to abortion. This goes on in every abortion clinic in america probably. But we never see any pro choice advocate propose a regulation that would prevent parents from forcing abortion on their children.

Sorry, I missed the part here where some clinic or providers were going along with this forced abortion.

Another claim is that Tiller and the pro abortion crowd always follow the law. That is nonsense. There are plenty of examples of plannedparenthood centers refusing to report rapes to the cops in violation of the law. It seems like planned parenthood is a rape enabler if they aren't reporting 13 year olds who show up pregnant with an older boyfriend to the cops. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,54079,00.html .

So you think a person calling in to a clinic asking for confidentiality should be told, "if we help you, we will also call the cops on your boyfriend"?

As a medical provider, I have the education, license and experience to determine if child abuse might be occurring and the obligation to report it. You would not find those same clinics telling the mother of a 10 or 12 yr old pregnant child that the clinic would protect the man who sexually abused the child.

Like it or not, there are young teens who are having sex with guys over 18 and it is not all equal abuse, regardless of the inflexibility of a statute to recognize that. If anything, this is an example of the inability of the law to effectively do what is best medically for a pregnant teen. It's an argument for changing the law, not an argument for accusing the health care providers of aiding and abetting a child abuser.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

One additional detail that I haven't seen in this thread (sorry if I've missed it) is that, according to one source, he was one of three doctors in the nation who performed this work (late term abortions). If true, this murderer didn't just murder an abortionist, which would be horrible enough. He murdered one third of the late term abortionists in America.

Repeating an except from the above quote because it is worth emphasizing here:

We pretend—I’ll never forget him telling me about a woman who he brought—had to fly in from Manhattan. She was a doctor’s wife, and yet she had a fetus that was growing a tumor that would not only kill her, it would kill the fetus. And there was no—there was no possibility of survival, but he saved her. Why, in a civilized society, would it be necessary to fly her in from Manhattan?

 

[eeyore1954]

No one's arguing that the fetuses aren't human. And the issue isn't whether or not they're alive, it's the issue that abortions in the third trimester should not be performed for any reason whatsoever and abortion is the same thing as murder.

Tiller wasn't peforming abortions because the parents had a change of heart about raising children or it would have been too likely they would be left-handed or have red hair, he was performing abortions in cases of fetuses with severe developmental problems. Take a look:

My understanding was BenBurch was arguing they are not human yet. I could be wrong but I think that is a common belief amongst people who support abortion. Actually I think it is a common belief they are not alive not that they are not human.

Do you believe an embryo in the third trimester is alive? If you do you believe it is ok to terminate its life because of a deformity. If so do you believe it would be ok to terminate its life after birth because of a deformity?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, hold your horses there, SG. I'm all for that, too - but first we need evidence. Don't check your critical thinking at the door.

At the same time, though, I do think that there needs to be a more concerted effort in the media to take scumbags like Randall Terry to task for his "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" kind of behavior when it comes to this kind of thing. I know he's never said for anyone to go out and kill abortion docs or bomb clinics, but he has helped to create an environment where calling them baby killers and whatnot can certainly drive the more extreme & imbalanced in the anti-abortion movement over the edge. For that, Terry needs to be taken to task, I say.

I said if, after the evidence was obtained, but I can see where such a comment would be lost in this flood.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Really? Can you provide some links?....

Did you really not see this coming?

Google result: murder of abortion doctor is act of terror


Edited to add, I see you discovered this on your own.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....

Until a child passes the age of majority, s/he cannot object to any medical procedure without going to court. ...

Correction, this is not exactly true. I don't have to perform any medical procedure because a parent asks and you'd be hard pressed to find any provider who would perform an abortion on any kid over 14 against the kid's wishes. In fact in most states kids 14 and up can consent to lots of medical procedures related to sexual activity without parental consent. Mostly/(only?) in states where the anti-abortion crowds have been trying to legislate medical care will you find mandatory informing of a parent when a teen seeks medical care for STDs or pregnancy.

And in this state and I assume most states, if you have a baby you can petition the court to make you an emancipated minor.

Now if the child was 10 or 11, you'd likely see the provider going with the parent or guardian's wishes provided it wasn't the abuser.

In between depends on the circumstances and the maturity of the child.

 

[oldhat]

Do you believe an embryo in the third trimester is alive?

In the third trimester around the 7th or 8th month, I believe medical science has shown that a fetus can start to be considered viable, depending on the conditions of the pregnancy. Short answer is so yes.

If you do you believe it is ok to terminate its life because of a deformity.

Not a deformity like having six fingers but a deformity that is life-threatening or life-ending to the fetus or life-threatening to the mother, like the ones listed above. Short answer is yes.

If so do you believe it would be ok to terminate its life after birth because of a deformity?

Unfortunately, yes, I do. I think there are certain conditions that are so severe (such as a child born without a functional brain -- it happens) to prolong the life is simply prolonging life for life's sake regardless of the child's suffering and that is itself immoral.

But if a baby is born with a condition like Down's Syndrome and can lead a life, albeit with a severe handicap, I don't see any fair argument for killing such a baby after it has been born, all other things being equal.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Do we hold William Luther Pierce responsible for the actions of Timothy McVeigh?

How about J.D. Salinger for the actions of Mark David Chapman?

This thread is practically a case study in availiability heuristics.

Pierce and Salinger wrote fiction novels. Your analogy fails big time making this a straw man argument. No one has said people are responsible for single expressions of fiction or beliefs.

I, (I think I may be alone here so I won't say we), am talking about Christians taking responsibility to do something to prevent the predictable misuse of the religion they promote on a regular basis.

 

[MattusMaximus]

My understanding was BenBurch was arguing they are not human yet. I could be wrong but I think that is a common belief amongst people who support abortion. Actually I think it is a common belief they are not alive not that they are not human.

Straw man. You are playing around with the meaning of "alive". Nobody is arguing whether or not a fetus or embryo is living, because all cells are alive; the argument is whether or not they equate to a human baby outside of the womb. I say they don't. Period.

Do you believe an embryo in the third trimester is alive? If you do you believe it is ok to terminate its life because of a deformity. If so do you believe it would be ok to terminate its life after birth because of a deformity?

Yes, yes, and maybe. The "maybe" is dependent upon the nature of the deformity - depending upon the circumstances it could very well be a mercy killing, as there are cases of babies being born only to suffer an excruciatingly painful and short life (on the order of minutes). Hell, there are adults (really old babies, in case you didn't know) who are assisted in ending their lives or have others do it in order to bring an end to their suffering due to illness, etc.

Btw, your skin cells are alive. When you take a shower, you're killing millions! Murderer!