ABC show prepetuates autism/vaccine link

[robinson]

Oh come on. No one wants to do your homework for you.

Hey! That's my line! But you are new here, so I will let it pass.

 

[robinson]

This brings back memories. My school was involved in the last outbreak of polio in North America (not related to the vaccine).

Wow, and I thought I was old! You know people that got Polio? What happened? braces? Iron Lungs? Massive deaths? What? You can't tell a story like that and not supply details.

This brings back memories. My school was involved in the last outbreak of polio in North America (not related to the vaccine).

Didn't more people die from the live vaccine than ever did from wild Polio?

These same schools are subject to outbreaks of measles on a regular basis. My mom sends me letters to the editor whenever this happens - the excuses given for why these outbreaks have nothing to do with the lack of vaccination get pretty funny.

How many deaths? How often are the outbreaks? Is there panic? Running and screaming? Does anybody who has been vaccinated ever get Measles?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Wow, and I thought I was old! You know people that got Polio? What happened? braces? Iron Lungs? Massive deaths? What? You can't tell a story like that and not supply details.

Didn't more people die from the live vaccine than ever did from wild Polio?



How many deaths? How often are the outbreaks? Is there panic? Running and screaming? Does anybody who has been vaccinated ever get Measles?

All right folks. Tell me robinson isn't an antivaxer.

 

[robinson]

I think chasing your tail trying to satisfy people who are completely uninterested in critically examining their pre-determined beliefs is a poor use of resources.

Most of the time I agree. Which is why I lose no sleep when somebody just refuses to read links, or even follow a discussion. After they ignore all evidence, and it becomes clear they are not going to contribute anything, much less keep an open mind, I ignore them.

If they ever say anything worthwhile, I will see it because somebody will respond to them, but most times it just saves time.



Oh wait, were you talking about skeptics or what?

 

[fls]

My goodness, Linda. I went out on a couple polio vaccine runs to the town of Sumas, WA. I'll bet that was the same outbreak. I worked in the Whatcom Public Health Department at the time.

It could be. This was in the late 70's and there were a few clusters of outbreaks in western Canada and the northwestern US related to the travellers to Holland and this religious sect.

Linda

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Didn't Robinson admit a couple of pages back that he was just playing devil's advocate? Also known as trolling?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It could be. This was in the late 70's and there were a few clusters of outbreaks in western Canada and the northwestern US related to the travellers to Holland and this religious sect.

Linda

Yep. That's the one. 1977 or 78. Were you in BC? Sumas is right on the border south of Abbotsford/Clearbrook.

 

[fls]

Wow, and I thought I was old! You know people that got Polio? What happened? braces? Iron Lungs? Massive deaths? What? You can't tell a story like that and not supply details.

It was a small outbreak. Most people were vaccinated, so the paralysis and death was confined to a few people.

Didn't more people die from the live vaccine than ever did from wild Polio?

I thought the lie du jour was that polio isn't really gone, it's just been renamed? Although, come to think of it, there's no reason to suppose that misinformation has to be internally consistent.

How many deaths? How often are the outbreaks? Is there panic? Running and screaming? Does anybody who has been vaccinated ever get Measles?

Have you seen "I Am Legend"? It's like that.

Linda

 

[fls]

Most of the time I agree. Which is why I lose no sleep when somebody just refuses to read links, or even follow a discussion. After they ignore all evidence, and it becomes clear they are not going to contribute anything, much less keep an open mind, I ignore them.

If they ever say anything worthwhile, I will see it because somebody will respond to them, but most times it just saves time.

Oh wait, were you talking about skeptics or what?

I was talking about anti-vaxxers. I wasn't aware that you engaged them in conversation, but how would I know?

Linda

 

[robinson]

I was talking about anti-vaxxers. I wasn't aware that you engaged them in conversation, but how would I know?

I've never joined or even read forums that oppose vaccinations. I can't even imagine what it would be like. But I'm thinking it might be fun.

The same questions about doing the science applies to them of course. Why haven't any antivaccine groups, scientist, somebody, done testing? Animal studies? They don't mention any, just like the vaccination sites avoid the issue.

And by that I mean the sort of studies I have wrote about over and over here. Load up lab rats with mercury laden vaccines and see if you get problems. Do the research. If they can't create autism, or any of the other issues they claim vaccines cause, then it helps advance science. This crap about just using people is nonsense.

We test mascara on rabbits before it can be sold. But nobody has tested multiple vaccines, including mercury preserved vaccines? Why don't the opponents of vaccines do some research.

The more I think about it, the more fun this seems. But I recoil from woo woo sites. It is too much crazy.

 

[fls]

The same questions about doing the science applies to them of course. Why haven't any antivaccine groups, scientist, somebody, done testing? Animal studies? They don't mention any, just like the vaccination sites avoid the issue.

There are ethics involved in medical experiments. Research is not undertaken lightly. There should at least be some expectation that the sacrifice of individuals, including animals, provides benefit such as advancing knowledge. It may be that someone who gains enough knowledge and experience to be entrusted with the responsibility of performing research also gains enough knowledge and experience to understand that the claims of anti-vaxxers are vacuous.

And by that I mean the sort of studies I have wrote about over and over here. Load up lab rats with mercury laden vaccines and see if you get problems. Do the research. If they can't create autism, or any of the other issues they claim vaccines cause, then it helps advance science. This crap about just using people is nonsense.

We test mascara on rabbits before it can be sold. But nobody has tested multiple vaccines, including mercury preserved vaccines? Why don't the opponents of vaccines do some research.

Research to gain the knowledge you claim to be looking for has already been done.

Linda

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I can't believe we are all here posting at this hour. Guess I better quit hitting check subscriptions and mosey on to bed.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

I can't believe we are all here posting at this hour. Guess I better quit hitting check subscriptions and mosey on to bed.

You're going to bed about the same time (4am) my neighbour's alarm clock woke me up this morning. Beep! Beep! Beep! for 2 bloody hours. Just as it turns off my other neighbour gets up and puts his radio on.

Don't trust Ivor's code today folks; he's only had 3.5 hours sleep and he has a stuffy cold.

 

[MattusMaximus]

All right folks. Tell me robinson isn't an antivaxer.

I would except that I couldn't do it with a straight face, not after reading his posts and seeing how he preaches the "teach the controversy" approach to vaccinations.

Most of the time I agree. Which is why I lose no sleep when somebody just refuses to read links, or even follow a discussion. After they ignore all evidence, and it becomes clear they are not going to contribute anything, much less keep an open mind, I ignore them.

You mean like how you have ignored repeated posts that put the evidence you demand right in front of you? What about post #167 where you challenged anyone to show you research citing the efficacy of vaccines, and it was done (twice!). What about when you said there were no medical benefits to using mercury at all, and then we show you concrete evidence that there is a medical benefit?

It's all summarized here in post #195.

Which reminds me Robinson... you just got totally PWNED!!!

I keep bringing this up in the thread to show everyone what I learned pretty quickly about Robinson: he is very disingenuous about how he approaches these issues. He expects scary sounding anecdotes to satisfy as proof of his veiled claims that all forms of mercury are bad and questioning the efficacy of vaccines in general; meanwhile, he demands ridiculous amounts of research for us to prove to him that vaccines are indeed safe and useful. When said research is shown him, he "moves the goalposts" and demands more research, and so on.

And then he lays down crazy ultimatums and backs away from them when challenged. Plus he'll never admit that he made a mistake or his beliefs about mercury/vaccines are in any way in error. He strikes me as a 'true believer' and somehow I get the feeling that he is here trying to preach to us.

Sounds like double-standard woo-speak to me.

Research to gain the knowledge you claim to be looking for has already been done.

Yup, and pointing it out to him again and again is of no use. He has the 'truth' on his side, the evidence be damned. Of course, it is useful to keep posting this info for any lurkers who might be following the thread.

Cheers - Mattus

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Considering this crowd, I find I learn far more by being the DA than one of the choir.

I assumed at the time DA meant Devil's Advocate - was I correct in this assumption?

 

[biostudent]

Well Robinson, I think you're more interested in questions as opposed to answers to those questions, which means that this thread could go on forever. I don't have patience for that kind of thing.

 

[robinson]

How about this for the mindset:

Have you ever eaten something, then been really sick and ill?

If so, how easy was it for you consider eating that particular food again?

How would you feel if the producer of the food claimed it had not made you sick, based on 1000 other people not being sick after eating it?

Would you believe them if they said you must have had a stomach bug or other condition before you ate their product?

Probably not. Even knowing it might just be me, if I get sick after eating somewhere, or eating something, I won't eat it again. I'm talking food poisoning sick, not just feeling a little unwell.

It is a matter of odds. If it wasn't the food that did it, I lose nothing by not eating it, but gain 100%, because the odds of it happening again are 0 if I don't eat it.

Hey Linda. You would think somebody would just post them, or at least link to them, if for no other reason than to shut me up.

Then somebody could go, robinson, you just got totally PWNED!

heh

I'm still laughing about that. Since nobody posted it, I'm going to do it myself.

Joint jabs no link to infections
Receiving multiple vaccinations does not increase a child's risk of being hospitalised due to infectious diseases, a study has concluded.

Concerns had been raised that exposure to a number of vaccines "used up" the immune system, so children could not fight off other illnesses.

Danish researchers monitored over 805,000 children to see if jabs, including MMR and Hib, increased risk.

They found no link, but vaccine campaigners called for more research.

A team from the Statens Serum Institut in Copenhagen, which carries out research into vaccines and is linked to the Danish Ministry of the Interior and Health, monitored all children born in Denmark between 1990 and 2001.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4134546.stm

Here is the actual study
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/294/6/699?lookupType=volpage&vol=294&fp=699&view=short

Hey robinson! You just got pwned! Oh yeah! Oh yeah!

 

[MattusMaximus]

I'm still laughing about that. Since nobody posted it, I'm going to do it myself.

You're just lying with this statement. The information you demanded was posted for you by both Biostudent and Skeptigirl, and I have referenced that fact many times since then. So have others on the thread, repeatedly.

Until now, you've just ignored the fact that you had the information you requested presented to you. But now you've gone one step further and specifically claimed that we never gave you the info in the first place, when it is obvious to anyone following the record of the thread that such is not the case.

Liar liar pants on fire

Robinson, give up any hope of convincing us that you're a "skeptic" in any honest sense of the word. You are merely interested in evangelizing for your anti-vaccination & anti-mercury crusade, and in the process you advocate the same slippery & dishonest "teach the controversy" tactics as modern day creationists.

You are a fraud and a liar. Deal with it.

 

[Deetee]

Robinson, you unsurpassed ability to talk in riddles, your inability to say what you mean and to come to the point have been highlighted many times, as has your mind-numbingly stupid habit of accusing others (and therefore medical science in general) of not having any answers when they cannot instantly fathom what you are asking.

If you wanted info on infections and immune overload, why did you not just say so?

WHO report on immune overload.
WHO Goldblatt slide presentation.
ADC article on infections and MMR "overload"

 

[MattusMaximus]

If you wanted info on infections and immune overload, why did you not just say so?

WHO report on immune overload.
WHO Goldblatt slide presentation.
ADC article on infections and MMR "overload"

Deetee, my hat goes off to you for having the patience to keep trying to convince & educate Robinson. Sadly, I don't think your efforts will matter -- I predict that he will simply ignore or distort the information you're giving him, just as he's done throughout this entire discussion.

He has, like many of the woo-minded on the JREF forums, convinced himself that he is some kind of modern-day Galileo, valiantly battling the dogmatic scientific & medical establishment, bearing forth the standard of "Truth". And when the logic of his arguments and evidence fail him, he simply resorts to conspiracy mongering.

And I have neither the time nor the patience to deal with people like him who claim to be interested in truth while lying to evangelize their views.