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AA77 FDR Data, Explained

Do you recall anything about NTSB impact vs. FDR time?

Do you recall the altitude of the aircraft, DME, etc.?


PFT_EEPROM.jpg


Impact time for the FDR is 13:37:50 or 52 based on the final position of 77. The NTSB listed the next to last time stamp. Why not the last time stamp? Do you know why?

The altitude over 6 seconds away from the Pentagon when the data stops is 400 feet to 440 feet MSL, at 6 seconds this is 66 fps. That means no major G force is required to hit the Pentagon. Why are you unable to place 77 with accuracy? Balsamo says the INS crashed, he is telling a lie! Is he dumb on theses issues, or selling his lies on DVD?

The DME is stored as 1.5 DME, but that is only accurate to 2000 feet I was bugging Balsamo about this, but he is a literalist, he is using an absolute 1.5 NM from DCA, when the real position of 77 confirmed by RADAR is 1.74 NM from DCA. You have no clue on DME accuracy (0.23 at DME less than 8 NM), and you do not understand resolution of storage (0.25). Balsamo will never understand, you say you are so smart, but you do not understand this simple accuracy, resolution issue. Why?

Is that the real configuration of the circuits used in the secure chip? Can you prove it?
 
Right, you want me to obtain proprietary information which is inaccessible to
certain L3 employees? :rolleyes:


You asked for a calculation; I informed you what data would be needed in order to perform that calculation. If you've changed your mind about wanting me to do the calculation, then no problem.

Are you feeling alright?


Yes, just fine, thank you. How are you? Nice weather we're having. I think it might rain later, though. Hey, did you catch those Chargers last night against the Jets? Finally got a rhythm going, and it looks like they're going to be competitive this year despite the 0-2 start. (But don't count Favre out yet either, the whole squad played with a lot of heart right to the end and if they get their routes and timing down and cut down on the turnovers we could see some fireworks in the AFC East.) By the way, have you tried that new pizza place down the street? I'm thinking of going there for lunch.

Myriad, you're a smart cookie and you're using all of your tricks to form yet another theory.


My tricks consist of simple logical arguments that anyone can follow, and simple calculations that anyone can verify. I encourage everyone to learn and use these tricks as much as possible.

Yes, a transient (or signal) will degrade of a length of a wire. The difference is, we're talking about microns, not meters.


And how thick is the wire? And how strong are the transients? If you're claiming the relevant phenomena do not scale, then why did you use the analogy of people holding onto a length of wire in the first place?

Would you like to post records of employment to prove our experience in the field and electronics? Maybe we can start with PM if that makes you more comfortable.

:cool:


Are you hiring? If so, please post a listing for the job I'd be applying for. I have to tell you I'm not looking to relocate right now, but if the offer is attractive enough, I can be flexible. One caveat: I have two small (20-lb) friendly well-behaved dogs that I insist be permitted to accompany me on the job, two days out of every five. That might, unfortunately, rule out clean-room work.

If you're not hiring, then I can't imagine why I'd possibly want to post or PM records of my employment or experience, or any other personal information. I have to say that the request strains the limits of civil discourse.

Are you familiar with the text The Art Of Electronics by Horowitz and Hill? Would it help if I inform you that I passed a full-year course for which that book was the textbook, and Horowitz was the prof? (Actually, I suspect that no, it would not help at all, and there's no reason it should. So why do you ask such rude and irrelevant questions?)

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Are you familiar with the text The Art Of Electronics by Horowitz and Hill? Would it help if I inform you that I passed a full-year course for which that book was the textbook, and Horowitz was the prof? (Actually, I suspect that no, it would not help at all, and there's no reason it should. So why do you ask such rude and irrelevant questions?)

Respectfully,
Myriad

Really? I never met Dr. Horowitz, but his book is renowned, and rightly so. That's the one textbook of mine that has been borrowed by five different people over the years. [/derail]
 
First of all, the only one failing on the technical side is YOU.

Hey, I'm not the one that can't produce a frame layout, decode raw FDR
files, or figure out how to flip a single bit in this diagram using a transient:
PFT_EEPROM.jpg


Too bad Myriad. I worked in a class 10 clean room for a while. It's pretty
cool.
 
Hey, I'm not the one that can't produce a frame layout, decode raw FDR
files, or figure out how to flip a single bit in this diagram using a transient:[qimg]http://procision-auto.com/911/PFT_EEPROM.jpg[/qimg]

Too bad Myriad. I worked in a class 10 clean room for a while. It's pretty
cool.
Easy. The transistor on column 2, row 3 is weak do to an anomaly in the silicon. The transient triggers the gate. Next question.
 
Easy. The transistor on column 2, row 3 is weak do to an anomaly in the silicon. The transient triggers the gate. Next question.

What's that, excuse #31? An anomaly in the silicon. :D

Too funny. It still doesn't explain anything. It's still in parallel. Oh well,
that's what happens when you talk tech with non technical people I guess.
I should have known better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giX1a1qnL_w
 
Hey, I'm not the one that can't produce a frame layout, decode raw FDR
files, or figure out how to flip a single bit in this diagram using a transient:[qimg]http://procision-auto.com/911/PFT_EEPROM.jpg[/qimg]

Too bad Myriad. I worked in a class 10 clean room for a while. It's pretty
cool.

But you're the one who can't get any real experts to back up your claims. And you're the one who can't explain the inevitable outcome of your claims. You're the one who can't explain how these events have happened in other crashes, but cannot happen in this one.

Hmmm...
 
No, I am not. I am stating that Mackey is using the article's context in the
wrong manner. Mackey is talking abuot single bit flipping. The article is
talking abuot BLOCKS of data.
The various articles speak of corrupted data in single and adjacent cells. They refer to tunneling effects and punchthrough that occurs despite the fact that they would not occur IF the transistors were ideal, which is how you are trying to portray them.



Good then, you acknowledge that there would be differences along the line.



Same question to you as presented to Myriad. How far away do you believe
these gates are positioned?

microns



Marco, or Micro. Parallel is parallel. Do I need to draw a circuit to explain this
concept?

No, it is NOT the same. In transient situations the high frequency components of the spike take precedence over the DC functionality of the cct. there is inherent impedance per unit length of cct, and a slightly different impedence to every gate, drain and source connection. So the further from the source of the spike the less the effect, some transistors will have a slightly different impedence than others and be affected differently AND the most affected transistors will be the ones being written to and those that are physically proximate to them.

This is ONE of the reasons that memory systems have specific power down procedures which is one of the things that obviously does not occur when the machine containing that memory is slammed into a concrete wall.



In this scenario, the data would likely be stored as contiguous data and
not fragmented for some sort of security purpose. Near. (Is Grover
going to appear soon? ;))

Who said it would be fragmented? Indeed the fact that it is written contiguously would mean that when word (bit, cell)"A" gets stored on the chip it will reside , physically, next to word (bit, cell)"B" and that if something catastrophic happens to "A" then the fact that "B" is right there bodes ill for "B" too.


Well that depends on the IC design. As stated many times, the gates
are tied together. You are talking about single cell state change.

Individuals next to one another will be affected. You really don't seem to be able to grasp that this situation in no way resembles the way the cct was designed to operate and that bad and odd things happen when transients enter the picture.




Nothing, unless you mean the bit/gate that is currently accessed and receiving
a write instruction?

The difference between the two would be address lines enabled (vs. tri-stated), current paths, etc.

Anyone care to explain how just one gate can be altered in such a design.

Wrong, the difference between cells/gates presently being written to, cells written to last and cells written to several minutes ago is that the ones being written to are the most sensitive to transients, the ones physically on the chip proximate to those cells are the cells last written to and are the next most in danger of corruption and the ones written to several minutes ago are physicall on the chip farther away and less in danger of corruption by this transient.

Here's a senario from my experience. It takes place in larger world rather than the micro world of a dense IC but it is useful in understanding that a transient is different than normal operation, to say the least.

I worked on a slow bit rate data line that ran a couple of hundred feet from one building to another. The twisted pair was in a cable that was buried but the location was the arctic, very dry, very static prone. There was fused protection at each end of the line.
One day the line went dead for no apparent reason. I checked the fuse at the send end. It was blown. I replaced it. still no joy. Out to the other building. Data is coming to the building but the fuse at that end is also blown. I replace it but still no joy. I check the terminating equipment and there the input transistor buffer is also no more than a bit of useless carbon inside an intact case(it too was blown).

So tell me TF, how does a transient operate in this single 'bus' such that it can simultaneously vlow three items in series? Should not one blow and then protect the other two given that it is now a huge resistance?
 
What's that, excuse #31? An anomaly in the silicon. :D

Too funny. It still doesn't explain anything. It's still in parallel. Oh well,
that's what happens when you talk tech with non technical people I guess.
I should have known better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giX1a1qnL_w
So how big is the buffer, the transmit buffer in the FDAU? How much data can it hold if there is a delay in this old FDR on 77?

Why did you post chips you said were used in 77's FDR but they were not?

Is the flyover a faith based effort, that lacks physical evidence.

Was that circuit really used in 77? Can you prove that is the arcatecure anywhere in the system?
 
But you're the one who can't get any real experts to back up your claims. And you're the one who can't explain the inevitable outcome of your claims. You're the one who can't explain how these events have happened in other crashes, but cannot happen in this one.

Hmmm...

When you can find a crash that supports your theory, then we'll talk.
YOu guys still haven't done so.


the most affected transistors will be the ones being written

OK.
to and those that are physically proximate to them.

I don't agree. If the transient has enough potential to flip a bit (tri-stated),
it sure as hell can travel a few microns ...

Keep trying.
 
Too bad Myriad. I worked in a class 10 clean room for a while. It's pretty
cool.
As an engineer or tech? Operating equipment or racking and runing wafers.
Was your job in designing or manufacturing?
 
What's that, excuse #31? An anomaly in the silicon. :D

Too funny. It still doesn't explain anything. It's still in parallel. Oh well,
that's what happens when you talk tech with non technical people I guess.
I should have known better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giX1a1qnL_w
You posted a video with a 14 G turn! Do you check the terrorist loyalist propaganda lies before you recommend them for others?

Learn some physics and your poor showing on electronics, is not a good sign.

14 Gs??? That is one dumb video with 6 year after the fact witness statements and two cops who don't know which way south is, or heard a reflect sound from the cemetery, not the real plane as we all do as we look at planes hearing it north, it being south. Pathetic, selling lies based on lies.

The best part of the video! Balsamo's model proves 77 hit the Pentagon on true track 61.2 degree +- 1 degree, and it shows it is possible to hit all the posts. I saw the animation, it is possible; gee it happen for real too. Is Balsamo that dumb on these issues?

Correction, on the video -
Balsamo's NoC 77 turn is 86.5 degrees (no one saw this, a plane on it's side), and 16.38 Gs.
 
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Turbo and other CTers don't seem to get that even if the FDR was found only to contain a 30-minute video of Chuck Norris kicking people, it still wouldn't prove that AA77 missed the Pentagon. I'm sure if Chuck Norris himself had been the actual Flight Data Recorder...there would be no missing data. But we're dealing with electronics, here, which can occasionally fail (regardless of what their spec says), especially when they are damaged.
 
Turbo and other CTers don't seem to get that even if the FDR was found only to contain a 30-minute video of Chuck Norris kicking people, it still wouldn't prove that AA77 missed the Pentagon. I'm sure if Chuck Norris himself had been the actual Flight Data Recorder...there would be no missing data. But we're dealing with electronics, here, which can occasionally fail (regardless of what their spec says), especially when they are damaged.

:rolleyes:
You're not taking this seriously!!

And besides........

I'm sure if Chuck Norris himself had been the actual Flight Data Recorder...there would be no missing data.

.... there'd be no Pentagon either!!!

:D:D:D
 
Voltage divider in parallel? Are you feeling alright? :confused:
Current is divided in a parallel circuit. The human body feels current not the voltage. We can have 15,00 to 20,000 volts sitting on our skin at any given moment. You feel the shock when the current flow from you to an object of a different potential.

You can have voltge dividers in a parallel circuit hence series/parallel circuits.
 
Is it me or does 6 seconds of data count as a missing or corrupted block of data. What's the big deal about the a single flipped bit. A single bit of data is addressed by row and column addressing. Ever heard of RAS and CAS?

If a transient or power drop hits while a single bit is being adressed, the single bit can be set to the wrong value.

The memory can be working properly but if the the power drop or transient hits the CPU while the data is being sent to the EEPROM the data will be corupted. And its possible that a single bit could get flipped along the way. Data buses are filtered but the filters can't get everything. Momentary inductance, static discharge, a short, etc..
 
When you can find a crash that supports your theory, then we'll talk.
YOu guys still haven't done so.

Yes we have. Flight 77. Or are you using the old CT argument of 'if there isn't a previous example of something happening in an identical manner, then it can't happen, thus negating all existence of the universe'?

Take a step back and look at what you are expecting people to believe. You are trying to tell people that a plane crash is determined by the data on an FDR that you also claim is provided by people who faked the plane crash. And then you are telling people to ignore the crashed plane because the data on the FDR doesn't show that the plane actually crashed. I believe in some stats they would lock you up in a mental hospital for that.
 
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